Goblin Squad Member
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From what has been posted by the devs it appears that character actions will affect alignment by either reinforcing the character's current alignment, or moving it away on one (or both) of the alignment axis. I have a concern that a new player's concept of alignment may not be the concept the devs use to determine the alignment impact of actions.
I propose that instead of simply picking an alignment the player could have the option to fill out a survey of questions that describe how the player plans to play their character. Each question would describe an alignment impacting action or situation that the game can actually detect and quantify. The player could choose from several options of play for that action. At the end of the survey the character generator would evaluate the responses and say "Based on how you wish to play this character your alignment would be XX." The player could then either accept that alignment, go back to picking an alignment, or retake the survey to generate different answers and thus generate a different alignment. The survey would be accessible by the player as a reference when concerns arise about why their alignment changed, if they chose to use the survey.
The questions could be crowdforged and valuable in listing for the devs actions we feel have an impact on alignment that we want detectable by the game.
I know that for me taking this survey at character creation would help me to clarify and benchmark roll playing my alignment choice. It would also serve as a statement of how I intend to play, a contract if you will, to allow GW to assess my character's actions against my intentions if any question should arise regarding charges of non-social behavior.
What do you think?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Maybe instead of generating a single alignment at the end of it, the test would tell you how much your answers coincide with different alignments.
Like, say if your answers were heavily Lawful and Neutral, LN would get the highest percentage, with LG, LE, and TN getting slightly lesser percentages, and the other alignments would get even lesser percentages. It might give you a better idea of what way you're leaning and what you might wanna shoot for if you wanna play a certain alignment. Plus, it might feel a bit more natural to get percentage-based answers than to just be told you ARE an alignment, especially if the difference between that and the next probable alignment was just one question/a very small percentage.
The choices should also be pulled from a vastly bigger pool of questions, that way pretty much everyone is going to be given different questions each time so it's harder to game the system: "Oh, just make your answers A, D, B, B, C, A, A to get Lawful Evil" or something.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would like to see things where you make a choice. for example you choose to hunt a bounty.
A character can choose to have it be Good (hunting evil), lawful (bringing in a criminal to pay for their crime), or evil (i love to kill and maim, and well that person i get to kill and maim and not get in trouble).
basically you can choose your intent. So for a Paladin slaying orcs is a good act, but for an assassin its an evil act.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I always wished I could skip the questions when playing Fallout: NV because I already knew what I wanted my character to be. I think it is a good idea, it will help new players get their bearings and help role-players to help define their characters. However, leave the option to skip it for those of us who know exactly what we want.
Most players aren't going to want to fill out a questionnaire before they can play; they're excited, they've just installed the game, and they want to get to the fun stuff!
I could see including a sidebar description of the alignment you just selected, though. Not intrusive and not something you HAVE to interact with/click through.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think one option to consider is when can you change alignment. If you choose an alignment at character creation, but find that the actions you actually wind up doing regularly are different from that, would you be able to formally change alignment or will you be locked into where your actions take your alignment.
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Goblin Squad Member
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As Richter mentioned with Fallout: New Vegas, I see this sounding very much akin to what they did with Elder Scrolls: Daggerfall. Just alignment instead of character class.
I think an option of players to choose between the alignment survey or, as Chiassa mentioned, with having a detailed sidebar would include the best of both worlds for new players or alt-a-holics.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Not only will the level of equipment function be accessed by what descriptors the equipment has, character access to improved function will also be accessed through your character's descriptors. I think that game mechanic actions should also have descriptors. I am more in favor of lawful/chaos and good/evil descriptors than LG/LE types. I think that the alignment "sliders" (if you will) work of the orthogonal axis rather than diagonally.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think one option to consider is when can you change alignment. If you choose an alignment at character creation, but find that the actions you actually wind up doing regularly are different from that, would you be able to formally change alignment or will you be locked into where your actions take your alignment.
Harad, I guess that will depend on whether the devs will go with a sliding alignment bar (Knights of the Old Republic: Light side-Dark side) or have you locked in until you go to an NPC of a certain alignment and pay/swear allegiance to change your alignment, which was the case in Ultima Online at one point if I remember correctly with their Karma system (may be still? *shrug*)
In my mind I'd think it would make sense to have two bars. One thats a Law/Chaos bar (with True Neutral being dead center) and then a Good/Evil bar (with Neutral dead center).
Of course how'd one begin to figure out what one action equates to which alignment is beyond me and has the possibility of being hamfisted and potentially make absolutely no sense, as is how I feel the case is in The Old Republic.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I think this is a good optional idea. Maybe when going to the alignment screen there can be a prompt or something along the lines of "Do you want to answer some questions to help determine your alignment?"
@Harad From my understanding the actions you take in the game will adjust your alignment, so if someone does pick the wrong alignment they should start drifting to whatever alignment they actually should be, simply through game play.
@Harad From my understanding the actions you take in the game will adjust your alignment, so if someone does pick the wrong alignment they should start drifting to whatever alignment they actually should be, simply through game play.
Good point, and it should be made clear in game information that alignment shifts, in and of themselves, are not a Bad Thing to have happen to your character (unless you are aiming for an alignment-restricted archetype, in which case a shift could close off that option).
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Goblin Squad Member
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I remember the gypsy lady in Ultima IV (yeah... I'm old...) that basically did what the OP is asking for. I think that would be a great option for players that chose it. However, I am very much opposed to forcing players to go through any particular method of creating their character. If this kind of thing is forced on players, they will simply repeat the process with different answers until they get the alignment they wanted - but they'll be getting frustrated with the game the whole time.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think what should be done is a one or two hour tutorial for the game where the character starts as either true neutral or the alignment of their deity in the case of cleric/paladin. Then depending on how they interact with mobs and events in the tutorial their alignment changes. This way everyone can get a feel for what is expect from their alignment. Although the amount of change to your alignment might need to be exaggerated so you can go from true neutral to chaotic evil or lawful good in a couple of hours time. I think it needs to be long enough to get a feel for the alignments but short enough that at the end if you don't like the outcome you won't feel to bad about deleting and recreating so you can get the alignment you want.
I remember the gypsy lady in Ultima IV (yeah... I'm old...) that basically did what the OP is asking for. I think that would be a great option for players that chose it. However, I am very much opposed to forcing players to go through any particular method of creating their character. If this kind of thing is forced on players, they will simply repeat the process with different answers until they get the alignment they wanted - but they'll be getting frustrated with the game the whole time.I don't think you understand the proposition. Gaming the answers to get your preferred alignment as a result would be incredibly stupid, as you would then turn to whichever alignment your actions take you eventually anyway. All you would be doing then would be cheating your self. The whole point of this is to instruct you how to act while revealing who you will become by your actions.
And there are still going to be players who (a) don't want to have to fill out a survey before they play the game and (b) if forced to, will simply force the system to give them the answer they want. Stupid or not, that's human nature. Forcing a one-size-fits-all approach, be it survey, tutorial, or sidebar, is going to anger people unnecessarily. (As is "instruct(ing) you how to act", so you may want to reword that.)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Maybe instead of generating a single alignment at the end of it, the test would tell you how much your answers coincide with different alignments. ... Plus, it might feel a bit more natural to get percentage-based answers than to just be told you ARE an alignment, especially if the difference between that and the next probable alignment was just one question/a very small percentage.
I think what should be done is a one or two hour tutorial for the game where the character starts as either true neutral or the alignment of their deity in the case of cleric/paladin. Then depending on how they interact with mobs and events in the tutorial their alignment changes.
I think these both have merit. It got me thinking based on some other posts that the optional alignment chooser could at the beginning display a lawful/chaotic and a good/evil slider both set to neutral. As the answers to questions are selected the sliders would reflect the impact of the choice on alignment. The impact of changing an answer selection before moving to the next section would be reflected in the change in the sliders. This could go very well with a tutorial where a question was asked at the end of each tutorial chapter. The player should have the option of going back and changing an answer selection.
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Goblin Squad Member
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And there are still going to be players who (a) don't want to have to fill out a survey before they play the game and (b) if forced to, will simply force the system to give them the answer they want. Stupid or not, that's human nature. Forcing a one-size-fits-all approach, be it survey, tutorial, or sidebar, is going to anger people unnecessarily. (As is "instruct(ing) you how to act", so you may want to reword that.)
Agreed. I fully support making the survey optional. If a player forces the system to give them the answer they want, it still may be instructional to know how the game rates specific actions. I'm not sure that the survey would be an instruction in how to act. Rather a tutorial on how the game responds to specific actions. I believe that informed choices have a better chance of satisfaction. If you play to make every action in combat be as effective as possible, then that method could be expanded to all actions within the game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You are going to get a lot of arguments about how the chooser is programmed.
For example the behavior many people see as evil is often just chaotic (unlawful, breaking the law) or neutral (self serving and selfish).
I think the arguments will come from a misunderstanding of the Pathfinder definitions of the alignments. For instance, selfish is defined as Evil, not Neutral.
At there most simplistic; Good == Altruistic, Evil == Selfish, Law == Order/Working-for-the-Whole, Chaos == Freedom/Individualism.
The neutrals are, obviously, things that fall in between.
I think another source of potential argument could come from the fact that alignment is more of a spectrum, and two Lawful Good characters could have varying degrees of Law and Good to there character.
But it sounds like GW are implementing a sort of sliding scale for alignment, so maybe that won't be a problem after all.
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Goblin Squad Member
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While the tutorial sounds cool. Again it would have to be optional and provide no other benefit aside from helping you choose an alignment.
I think it could do a little more than that, but I'm envisioning nothing more complicated than your standard MMO tutorial. You know, this is how you fight, this is how you cast spells, this is how you move, these are your bags for inventory, this is how you emote, that kind of thing.
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Goblin Squad Member
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And there are still going to be players who (a) don't want to have to fill out a survey before they play the game and (b) if forced to, will simply force the system to give them the answer they want. Stupid or not, that's human nature. Forcing a one-size-fits-all approach, be it survey, tutorial, or sidebar, is going to anger people unnecessarily. (As is "instruct(ing) you how to act", so you may want to reword that.)If you are angered by the alignment system or your actions being rated independently of your opinion then you should not play the game. You have to act a certain way to stay a certain alignment if the alignment system is based on your actions. Otherwise the alignment system is pure fluff. This is simple logic and shouldn't be hard to understand.
So, again, if you force the survey to give you the answer you want then it's the same as forcing a tailor to give you a suit in a specific size, even after he measured you and told you what size you are. Nobody is going to be negatively affected by it except you, the stubborn player who refuses to cooperate with the alignment system.
I think you need to check yourself. No one is saying that your actions post character creation won't affect your alignment. This topic is about adding a questionnaire during character creation to help determine your character's alignment.
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Goblin Squad Member
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And there are still going to be players who (a) don't want to have to fill out a survey before they play the game and (b) if forced to, will simply force the system to give them the answer they want. Stupid or not, that's human nature. Forcing a one-size-fits-all approach, be it survey, tutorial, or sidebar, is going to anger people unnecessarily. (As is "instruct(ing) you how to act", so you may want to reword that.)If you are angered by the alignment system or your actions being rated independently of your opinion then you should not play the game. You have to act a certain way to stay a certain alignment if the alignment system is based on your actions. Otherwise the alignment system is pure fluff. This is simple logic and shouldn't be hard to understand.
So, again, if you force the survey to give you the answer you want then it's the same as forcing a tailor to give you a suit in a specific size, even after he measured you and told you what size you are. Nobody is going to be negatively affected by it except you, the stubborn player who refuses to cooperate with the alignment system.
Actually, your alignment is going to have a BIG impact on your character. It can lock you out of settlements, hinder training, and make you KoS in some areas.
--As for initial alignment, I'm thinking that your first initial actions should have a big impact on your alignment, and subsequent actions won't change it as much. (I'm also hoping that if you do an evil action such as steal or pvp, that you will take a sharp drop in alignment.)
EDIT: As long as they mention that alignment isn't set in stone and can change if you do certain actions, I don't think there should be complaints outside the ones where people didn't read the rules.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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While the tutorial sounds cool. Again it would have to be optional and provide no other benefit aside from helping you choose an alignment.I think it could do a little more than that, but I'm envisioning nothing more complicated than your standard MMO tutorial. You know, this is how you fight, this is how you cast spells, this is how you move, these are your bags for inventory, this is how you emote, that kind of thing.
I wasn't referring to what it taught you more to, you don't get anything out of it other than instruction IE. If you just want to jump into the game and skip the tutorial you don't miss out on gear, loot, experience that counts toward a merit badge, etc
It's only purpose should be for teaching you how to play the game. You shouldn't be able to sit in the tutorial area and gain something from staying there rather than advancing into the rest of the game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think you need to check yourself. No one is saying that your actions post character creation won't affect your alignment. This topic is about adding a questionnaire during character creation to help determine your character's alignment.How does that invalidate anything of what I've said? That's the assumption of every post I've made in this thread. If players skip the survey, then they will get upset when their alignment changes based on their actions. We see it in PnP all the time and I don't think a video game will be better able to judge actions than a human GM.
If your character's alignment is affected by actions post-character creation then the best help you can give a player is advice during character creation.
Just like in PnP when the GM will tell you what he considers lawful, chaotic, good and evil. The game has to do the same or there will be endless controversy and rage on the forums. It's inevitable. Especially by people who assume that they already know how the game will determine alignment.
Very simple logic.
Actually, this would fit under philosophical. Does choosing your alignment affect your actions or do your actions affect your alignment. Either case could be argued.
If I play a follower of Serenae and my power comes from appeasing her then my actions will be within her alignment. I don't need a survey to tell me that I'm going to play someone who is NG. I will choose NG, skip the survey, and play my character as to follow my NG god.
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Goblin Squad Member
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While the tutorial sounds cool. Again it would have to be optional and provide no other benefit aside from helping you choose an alignment.I think it could do a little more than that, but I'm envisioning nothing more complicated than your standard MMO tutorial. You know, this is how you fight, this is how you cast spells, this is how you move, these are your bags for inventory, this is how you emote, that kind of thing.I wasn't referring to what it taught you more to, you don't get anything out of it other than instruction IE. If you just want to jump into the game and skip the tutorial you don't miss out on gear, loot, experience that counts toward a merit badge, etc
It's only purpose should be for teaching you how to play the game. You shouldn't be able to sit in the tutorial area and gain something from staying there rather than advancing into the rest of the game.
Ah. Then I would agree. I could see it giving you a little experience but not any more than if you had just been playing the game for a couple of hours, but even if it didn't give you any I'm ok with that too.
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Goblin Squad Member
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... If I play a follower of Serenae and my power comes from appeasing her then my actions will be within her alignment. I don't need a survey to tell me that I'm going to play someone who is NG. I will choose NG, skip the survey, and play my character as to follow my NG god.
I think it is vital to allow a player to select an alignment without using the survey. However, a new player to Pathfinder or d20 RPG in general may not have the experience to understand the impacts of alignment choice. A tutorial/survey may be helpful in that respect.
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Goblin Squad Member
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As I envision this survey (or tutorial or video or interpretative dance - whatever medium it is in), it will communicate to you how different actions will cause your alignment to shift depending on circumstances. I.e. it will be a briefing or intro to how the game determines your alignment. If you skip it and think "I'm NG", the game doesn't care. The game doesn't care if you know which results your actions will have or not. It only hurts you to not know how the game defines alignment.Actually, this would fit under philosophical. Does choosing your alignment affect your actions or do your actions affect your alignment. Either case could be argued.
If I play a follower of Serenae and my power comes from appeasing her then my actions will be within her alignment. I don't need a survey to tell me that I'm going to play someone who is NG. I will choose NG, skip the survey, and play my character as to follow my NG god.
Which I agree, but if you already know then all I'm saying is that you are allowed to skip the survey. I still agree that it is a good idea, just that you needn't be forced to do it if you already know how to play your alignment.
I think you need to check yourself. No one is saying that your actions post character creation won't affect your alignment. This topic is about adding a questionnaire during character creation to help determine your character's alignment.How does that invalidate anything of what I've said? That's the assumption of every post I've made in this thread. If players skip the survey, then they will get upset when their alignment changes based on their actions. We see it in PnP all the time and I don't think a video game will be better able to judge actions than a human GM.
If your character's alignment is affected by actions post-character creation then the best help you can give a player is advice during character creation.
Just like in PnP when the GM will tell you what he considers lawful, chaotic, good and evil. The game has to do the same or there will be endless controversy and rage on the forums. It's inevitable. Especially by people who assume that they already know how the game will determine alignment.
Very simple logic.
And not everyone will want or need that advice. Some will actively resent having it forced on them. Providing the option to take that advice is great; insisting that you do so before you can play your character will create just as many frustrated players as will post-creation alignment shifts.
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Goblin Squad Member
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People will learn how the game affects their alignment whether it is through feedback from their actions in game or through reading a wiki, instructions, blogs, and/or forums. Whether it is my first character or my 15th character, I don't want to be forced into a survey for every character.
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Goblin Squad Member
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One of my considerations for having a survey in the first place was to provide a way to adjudicate charges of "anti-community behavior", both in the player's favor and against it.
The survey could specifically say that a specific response to an action is grounds for removal from the game. (And, yes, I do assume that there will be legal wording to that effect in the usage agreement.) In that case, if the player commits that action there is documentation beyond the usage agreement to show that the player knew exactly what they were doing.
If the player opts not to take the survey and picks their alignment without input, there may be a valid argument on the player's part of "I didn't know that". In that case a condition of probation might be to take the survey to gain the lacking knowledge. A repeat offense then has documentation that the excuse of "I didn't know" has no standing.
The same goes for the argument "That is how I play this alignment". Documentation through the survey will show that the player accepted the results of playing that alignment in that fashion.
I think that this would be a perk beyond the benefit of game instruction.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I hope the system will handle "faking alignment" as in pretend your evil for infiltrating a group of bandits, discover their lair before turning on them. The other side could be someone infiltrating a caravan of good alignment people pretending to be a mercenary good but turn on them and take their stuff for yourself.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Hmm.
Okay so I still think the UI should have something like a coordinate system with the new player starting at 0. The starting experience environment should be laced with triggers all through and around the starting town: Opportunities for the new adventurer to choose to act, or not act upon.
Passing by a begger might do nothing, but if the begger is focused on or selected and then passed by it might increment toward chaotic and toward evil. If the beggar was assaulted then toward lawful evil, If the begger was donated to then toward good. If talked with then the character might find opportunities that would increment their alignment coordiate toward lawful good or chaotic good (could I have just a taste of ale? I am so thirsty. Lawful good gives water, chaotic good gives ale.
In this way the Paladin to be selects his or her Lawful Good alignment and by inference should realize that performing an evil act could move them away from their desired alignment.
Alignment appropriate actions move the alignment by increments. Significat acts (going to the chapel and affirming a lawful good deity as an example) might move the alignment more than charity or harm.