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Over in the alignment discussion, I had the realization that certain actions could require an atonement, either mundane or the spell, without always breaking ones alignment. Alignment is just not fine tuned enough for this, pparticularly with paladins, clerics, druids and other role concepts with such restrictions.
They have already announced the likely inclusion of criminal tags, so my idea is to build on that system and provide another flag that could become active when someone does something that is against their code of conduct as required by their religion, order, or whatever. I.E. A paladin might have enough LG alignment that a single case of murder would not change her alignment, but this does not mean the paladin should escape the consequences of losing her role abilities for commiting murder.
The idea is that the criminal flagging system could be made modular so that any number of rulesets, could be made to produce a flag when certain actions are performed. Each religion o role concept could have it's own ruleset in addition to the criminal ruleset (which this would also make it easier to alter the criminal ruleset as needed), thus if one acts against a code of conduct, then they lose the tied abilities until they atone, or, if allowed, change whatever is raising the flag. Thus if a druid wears metal armor, or a cleric of Pharasma creates undead, or if a monk wears heavy armor, etc.
Also you could implement a code maker that allows player made religions.
Questions? Concerns? Thoughts?
Goblin Squad Member
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It also means a Paladin needs to be sure exactly what is going on before getting involved with a fight.
For example, Lets say player a decides to ambush a random player to gank him. Player B is defending himself and looks like he is sucussfully beating down his attacker. Joe the Paladin walks by and sees that Player A is about to be killed by Player B and rushes to his defense. Joe the Paladin now has the criminal flag as well,since he is joining in an unprovoked attack on player B, so loss of abilites will ensue.
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Goblin Squad Member
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In the heat of the moment, then a dialog box pop up will be very jarring to play.
There should absolutly be an option to turn on a criminal flag marking of players, but a pop-up "Are you sure?" when you hit your smite button is going to be a chore to wade though every time, and can cost you valuable reaction time in combat if you are trying to stay alive.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So was the kid in that movie Kick**s (--> movies name don't ban me) a Paladin? b/c no matter what the situation he wasn't going to let someone get beat down in front of him on his watch? In game he could be defending an assassin from an assassin so I think it will be hard to come up with a good system. Casting detect evil works a little but what if both are nuetral ? both are evil? both are good? Then it boils down to thier actions = ack i gave myself a migraine just now overload!
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This is why philosophers have been argueing over it for centuries, I personally believe that in reality,
good should be defined as "promoting, creating, or protecting life" and
evil as "degrading, destroying, or threating life".
With those definitions most actions are both good and evil, in varying amounts, thus people could argue that a particular action is good or evil, and they both would be right, I believe in balance and that balance is often a-symmetrical, which results in cycles, and thus I do not believe in fine lines of black vs white.
However, implementing that in a game is difficult, so perhaps we should focus alignment adjustments on things that are overwhelmingly in one direction or can be clearly sorted to have multiple alignments affected by the same action.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The topic of a paladin falling from grace has been debated to dead, then renimated to keep the discussion going.
Bluntly I see no reason to acknowledge paladin oats and falling from grace with any mechanic at all.
After all, what is preventing a good character from learing all or most of the skills usually associated with paladins?
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Goblin Squad Member
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This is why philosophers have been argueing over it for centuries, I personally believe that in reality,
good should be defined as "promoting, creating, or protecting life" and
evil as "degrading, destroying, or threating life".With those definitions most actions are both good and evil, in varying amounts, thus people could argue that a particular action is good or evil, and they both would be right, I believe in balance and that balance is often a-symmetrical, which results in cycles, and thus I do not believe in fine lines of black vs white.
However, implementing that in a game is difficult, so perhaps we should focus alignment adjustments on things that are overwhelmingly in one direction or can be clearly sorted to have multiple alignments affected by the same action.
Yeah. I tried to inform my sweetheart that pulling little plants out of the ground by their roots is destroying and harming life on the planet but she just looked at me with *that look* and I resumed weeding the garden.
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Goblin Squad Member
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After all, what is preventing a good character from learing all or most of the skills usually associated with paladins?
Nothing at all. And once you have learned those skills, you will earn your Paladin level 1 badge, and you ARE a paladin.
Each of those skills will likely have Alignment restrictions or a can only be used if you do not have "Fallen" status as a pre-req.
Those abilites are tied to alignment for both flavor and balance reasons in TT. You can not have mechanics to deal with alignment and paladin atonement and still be Pathfinder imo, regardless of the rules of the actual game engine that PFO is using.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well could the game add a small marking or aura over the player conducting a criminal attack? It would make sense for those with "detect evil" and other similar spells. Granted I kind of like the idea that a paladin has to attempt to asses the situation before jumping in.
another question is, what if the victim pursues their attacker after they have defended themselves and kills them. Would a lawful good consider killing a defeated opponent murder? would saving the criminal from murder count as a criminal act?
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Goblin Squad Member
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After all, what is preventing a good character from learing all or most of the skills usually associated with paladins?Nothing at all. And once you have learned those skills, you will earn your Paladin level 1 badge, and you ARE a paladin.
Each of those skills will likely have Alignment restrictions or a can only be used if you do not have "Fallen" status as a pre-req.
Those abilites are tied to alignment for both flavor and balance reasons in TT. You can not have mechanics to deal with alignment and paladin atonement and still be Pathfinder imo, regardless of the rules of the actual game engine that PFO is using.
Sorry, but while the Paladin is not a bad class, the argument that the damn paladin oath somehow balances it, doesn't work for me. After all the Antipaladin gets pretty much the dark side of the same powers, and their oath hasn't been the subject of so much debate.
And since we don't know how the abilites from the pen and paper version will translate to Pathfinder Online, it is difficult whats so unique abilties the Paladin badge might give.
After all what does a Paladin gain in the first few levels?
Heavy Armor - others get that too
Weapons - pretty much the same
Smite Evil - not unique to the Paladin class, even celestial animals can do it, even if they turn evil
So yeah, my point isn't against a system for Paladins to fall from and turn evil (of for that fact a system for all characters to change their alignment) - but the notion, that a Paladin will be more powerfull than other classes ....
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After all, what is preventing a good character from learing all or most of the skills usually associated with paladins?Nothing at all. And once you have learned those skills, you will earn your Paladin level 1 badge, and you ARE a paladin.
Each of those skills will likely have Alignment restrictions or a can only be used if you do not have "Fallen" status as a pre-req.
Those abilites are tied to alignment for both flavor and balance reasons in TT. You can not have mechanics to deal with alignment and paladin atonement and still be Pathfinder imo, regardless of the rules of the actual game engine that PFO is using.
Did you actually read the PnP rules before posting that?
Paladins not only need to stay LG, but they also must follow the code. PF actually went through and wrote the code for you, instead of you writing it yourself. If either of these are violated, then the paladin is no longer a paladin and loses access to all class features including spells and mount, until they atone (which is a spell btw)
This is written in the rules and is a basic part of being a paladin, so how can adding alignment, atonement, and codes of coduct, ever make a game, not be PF?
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@sebastian
That's what I like about my idea, it could be used for more then just paladins and isn't a balancing factor, it can also be used for other classes with restrictions, such as druids who can't wear metal, etc.
I also agree that the idea of a paladin being more powerful is ridculous, however being a paladin can still be a sign to others.
Please note, I didn't make this thread to argue about paladins, my idea isn't even for paladins alone, it's for multiple classes, it just happened to be inspired by a paladin discussion. I also didn't intend for a discussion to resume here about paladins, I was looking for feedback on the idea I presented, which can be used for a lot more then paladins.
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Goblin Squad Member
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After all, what is preventing a good character from learing all or most of the skills usually associated with paladins?Nothing at all. And once you have learned those skills, you will earn your Paladin level 1 badge, and you ARE a paladin.
Each of those skills will likely have Alignment restrictions or a can only be used if you do not have "Fallen" status as a pre-req.
Those abilites are tied to alignment for both flavor and balance reasons in TT. You can not have mechanics to deal with alignment and paladin atonement and still be Pathfinder imo, regardless of the rules of the actual game engine that PFO is using.
Did you actually read the PnP rules before posting that?
Paladins not only need to stay LG, but they also must follow the code. PF actually went through and wrote the code for you, instead of you writing it yourself. If either of these are violated, then the paladin is no longer a paladin and loses access to all class features including spells and mount, until they atone (which is a spell btw)
This is written in the rules and is a basic part of being a paladin, so how can adding alignment, atonement, and codes of coduct, ever make a game, not be PF?
You somehow got the exact opposite of what I was saying. My point was that PnP rules require an alignment and code for paladins, and doing away with that will make the game not be pathfinder. I'm sorry if that wasn't clear.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@sebastian
That's what I like about my idea, it could be used for more then just paladins and isn't a balancing factor, it can also be used for other classes with restrictions, such as druids who can't wear metal, etc.I also agree that the idea of a paladin being more powerful is ridculous, however being a paladin can still be a sign to others.
Please note, I didn't make this thread to argue about paladins, my idea isn't even for paladins alone, it's for multiple classes, it just happened to be inspired by a paladin discussion. I also didn't intend for a discussion to resume here about paladins, I was looking for feedback on the idea I presented, which can be used for a lot more then paladins.
Well I am not actually against a system that allows you to flag other players for infractions. My problem with it, would be that something like that is pretty hard to codify.
Some of your original suggestions should be automatic to implement:
Monk wears armor, ok so he loses some of his abilities (flurry among others), this can be automatic and doesnt't require other players to report or flag it. The same is true for a druid and his metal armor, at least that seems to be the case in the pen and paper rules, since they lose spellcasting immediately.
Flaging could be possible for things that are not so easy to track with code, but some of those cases could require a GM to research the infraction. After all if the combat log shows that ma paladin just killed that farmer - that might very well not be the whole story. Maybe the Paladin was attacked after the farmer was mind controlled, or possesed by a ghost or similar creature. Maybe other circumstances caused the death by the Paladins hand... The list goes on.
If other players can see that a character is a Paladin, that could be worth something, after all he should be a paragon of good and justice.
Of chause falling from grace is really tricky, since it's not like a cleric ex-communicated you, it happens automatically. Really a tough one.
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Well, flagging has nothing to do with other players doing something to you, to my current understanding, as far as I can tell that's the reputation system. So my idea is not intended to have other players making judgements, particularly for grey area actions where people won't agree anyway.
My idea is based around the fact that the criminal flag will be automatically given to a player based on them taking certain actions, which means they will have a sub-system in place to watch what actions the players take, my idea is to use this sub-system for more then just the criminal flag, and if certain actions are taken then it can grant a different flag from criminal (and possibly the criminal flag as well if appropriate).
Really the majority of alignment, and codes of conduct, should come from the more minor and consistant actions, such as keeping contracts/quests or breaking/quitting them, staying consistant with play or not such as staying a fighter/caster/crafter vs jumping styles all the time(more for law/chaos), accepting/turning down duel requests, stealing, using language that gets censored (though I always found it funny that cockatrice gets censored), etc.
Most of these simpler common actions are easier to track and run into grey area problems far less often. Granted the grey area problems do usually come into play with the larger actions that would have a considerably larger effect.
After all, what is preventing a good character from learing all or most of the skills usually associated with paladins?Nothing at all. And once you have learned those skills, you will earn your Paladin level 1 badge, and you ARE a paladin.
Each of those skills will likely have Alignment restrictions or a can only be used if you do not have "Fallen" status as a pre-req.
Those abilites are tied to alignment for both flavor and balance reasons in TT. You can not have mechanics to deal with alignment and paladin atonement and still be Pathfinder imo, regardless of the rules of the actual game engine that PFO is using.
Did you actually read the PnP rules before posting that?
Paladins not only need to stay LG, but they also must follow the code. PF actually went through and wrote the code for you, instead of you writing it yourself. If either of these are violated, then the paladin is no longer a paladin and loses access to all class features including spells and mount, until they atone (which is a spell btw)
This is written in the rules and is a basic part of being a paladin, so how can adding alignment, atonement, and codes of coduct, ever make a game, not be PF?
Where is this paladin code written? Cause i have not seen it in the core book i have for pathfinder. Only restriction i have seen is LG.
This whole thread is why we need a way to incapacitate players with sub dual damage.
paladine will not be the most powerful skill set, that will be the wizard and sorc.
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Goblin Squad Member
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No classes in pfo.
Most likely you would train a skillset that allows you to use "holy relics" giving powers based on alignment to simulate cleric/paladin abilities.
Shift alignment and you lose the ability to equip the relic and the paladin abilities, though if you shift far enuff you might be able to use an anti-paladin relic and gain those abilities instead.
That would be how I envision it working under the current skill training system.
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Learning powers, such as "Smite Evil" is not a garuntee of being able to use such powers.
@Darsch
In the book, a segment titled "Code of Conduct" is just after the abilities, same style of text like it's another ability though. I'll look up the SRD and link it if I can find it.
Edit: Found Here, just after the list of abilities.
Code of Conduct
A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if she ever willingly commits an evil act.
Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.
Associates: While she may adventure with good or neutral allies, a paladin avoids working with evil characters or with anyone who consistently offends her moral code. Under exceptional circumstances, a paladin can ally with evil associates, but only to defeat what she believes to be a greater evil. A paladin should seek an atonement spell periodically during such an unusual alliance, and should end the alliance immediately should she feel it is doing more harm than good. A paladin may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are lawful good.Ex-Paladins
A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and class features (including the service of the paladin's mount, but not weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies). She may not progress any further in levels as a paladin. She regains her abilities and advancement potential if she atones for her violations (see atonement), as appropriate.
Note that in DnD, you would write your own code, with some direction from the GM of course. Personally I like writing my code better then having it drawn up for me.
Learning powers, such as "Smite Evil" is not a garuntee of being able to use such powers.
@Darsch
In the book, a segment titled "Code of Conduct" is just after the abilities, same style of text like it's another ability though. I'll look up the SRD and link it if I can find it.Edit: Found Here, just after the list of abilities.
Code of Conduct
A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if she ever willingly commits an evil act.
Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.
Associates: While she may adventure with good or neutral allies, a paladin avoids working with evil characters or with anyone who consistently offends her moral code. Under exceptional circumstances, a paladin can ally with evil associates, but only to defeat what she believes to be a greater evil. A paladin should seek an atonement spell periodically during such an unusual alliance, and should end the alliance immediately should she feel it is doing more harm than good. A paladin may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are lawful good.Ex-Paladins
A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and class features (including the service of the paladin's mount, but not weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies). She may not progress any further in levels as a paladin. She regains her abilities and advancement potential if she atones for her violations (see atonement), as appropriate.
Note that in DnD, you would write your own code, with some direction from the GM of course. Personally I like writing my code better then having it drawn up for me.
wierd. Wonder why I have never seen that in my book.
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Goblin Squad Member
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re: codes of conduct and loss of abilities,
there seem to be several tools available here:
-slotted abilities. allow no druid or monk abilities slotted if wearing the wrong armor, etc. (or just reduce the efficiency to near zero)
-flags. Criminal flag could obviously be code breaking for paladins. Using a poison (or slotting a poisoned weapon) could also give a []ihidden[/i] 'poisoner' flag that prevents slotting paladin abilities until removed by atonement. The same flags could potentially be requirements for other things (assassin training etc).
-factions. if requiring paladins to join the order, any action that decreases faction rep above a certain value with the order could be regarded as breach of code. With an extended pantheon, paladins of different churches may have slightly different codes.
-alignment. you don't need to misbehave to the point of becoming evil: any action that affects your alignment will already be quantified in the system, so evil/chaos actions above a certain treshold could be defined as code breaking and require atonement.
so, the discussion IMO boils down to whether GW actually want to force people to play their alignment - not if it is possible.
re: codes of conduct and loss of abilities,
there seem to be several tools available here:
-slotted abilities. allow no druid or monk abilities slotted if wearing the wrong armor, etc. (or just reduce the efficiency to near zero)
-flags. Criminal flag could obviously be code breaking for paladins. Using a poison (or slotting a poisoned weapon) could also give a []ihidden[/i] 'poisoner' flag that prevents slotting paladin abilities until removed by atonement.
I'm not sure that this will be as solid of a rule. For instance, in several cities in the US it's illegal to give the homeless food. So in that city a Paladin would be a criminal. We don't know the scope of the legal system yet, but I imagine that in a area controlled by a CE or LE group would have laws that a "good" character would not be able to obey.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What I am wondering is with no real class system how this will break down. Could it be possible to have a neutral-good or chaotic-good character with some but not all of the paladin abilities? A barbarian with an animal companion and wildshape?
Obviously these would have to be balanced out but it might give a little more freedom. For instance I've always thought it would be cool to base a character off this concept.
"Eh.... what??? Did that paladin just cast entangle on me?!"
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think in some blog/thread they (devs) where saying that the aggressor is automatically flagged when he starts a fight.
I don't feel the need for skill flags. Some small text box text will suffice for alignment changes. "You character has shifted 5 points towards chaotic" etc. "Your character can't use that skill because he is wearing heavy armor". "You alignment is wrong for that skill" etc
And skill descriptions should always say: "You have to be this and that to use this skill" or "You can only use this skill when wearing blaa blaa blaa".
Maybe if you have lots of paladin skills you could get a bigger message. "warning, warning". And redeeming one self could become a main plot for some characters, working their way up back to lawful. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well, flagging has nothing to do with other players doing something to you, to my current understanding, as far as I can tell that's the reputation system. So my idea is not intended to have other players making judgements, particularly for grey area actions where people won't agree anyway.
My idea is based around the fact that the criminal flag will be automatically given to a player based on them taking certain actions, which means they will have a sub-system in place to watch what actions the players take, my idea is to use this sub-system for more then just the criminal flag, and if certain actions are taken then it can grant a different flag from criminal (and possibly the criminal flag as well if appropriate).
Really the majority of alignment, and codes of conduct, should come from the more minor and consistant actions, such as keeping contracts/quests or breaking/quitting them, staying consistant with play or not such as staying a fighter/caster/crafter vs jumping styles all the time(more for law/chaos), accepting/turning down duel requests, stealing, using language that gets censored (though I always found it funny that cockatrice gets censored), etc.
Most of these simpler common actions are easier to track and run into grey area problems far less often. Granted the grey area problems do usually come into play with the larger actions that would have a considerably larger effect.
Well if they are willing to code this, I see no problem (but a whole lot of work).
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Goblin Squad Member
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What I am wondering is with no real class system how this will break down. Could it be possible to have a neutral-good or chaotic-good character with some but not all of the paladin abilities? A barbarian with an animal companion and wildshape?
Obviously these would have to be balanced out but it might give a little more freedom. For instance I've always thought it would be cool to base a character off this concept.
"Eh.... what??? Did that paladin just cast entangle on me?!"
I second the suggestion, even if my character would look more like this
[url=http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=188969&type=card], sneak attack + smite evil = win ^^|
Goblin Squad Member
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What I am wondering is with no real class system how this will break down. Could it be possible to have a neutral-good or chaotic-good character with some but not all of the paladin abilities? A barbarian with an animal companion and wildshape?
Obviously these would have to be balanced out but it might give a little more freedom. For instance I've always thought it would be cool to base a character off this concept.
"Eh.... what??? Did that paladin just cast entangle on me?!"
It depends on how how strict they plan on being with skills for certian classes being restricted to alignment.
Of course, that character concept can be done in TT by making a Paladin/Cleric with the Plant and Animal Domains to get around the Druid/Paladin alignment divide. You miss out on wild shape, but you can wear heavy armor without having to worry about it being ironwood.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ Valandur: you're absolutely right, but there must be some 'default law' that NPC towns use.
@ Aeioun: stealth is also against the paladin code but not an evil act. If you want to have stealthy paladins lose their abilities you need some sort of flag. Also, atonement should not restore your alignment or reputation, but could remove "loss of paladin ability" flags.
@ Andius: some of the paladin abilities should be alignment-restricted or code-restricted, others not. For instance, smite evil should require you to be good (but not lawful?), save bonuses may depend on upholding the code. Barbarian rage may require you to be chaotic (or maybe chaotic to train but non-lawful to use?) but fast movement should never be lost.
HOWever even if you could theoretically have rage and smite at the same time, there may be restriction on what you can slot together. Paladin + druid abilities? palading + rogue? monk + barbarian in the same action bar? Should these combos be allowed - GW may decide either way, and we haven't yet had that important discussion on what the essence of each archetype is, so it's (as usual) too early to speculate.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm not sure that this will be as solid of a rule. For instance, in several cities in the US it's illegal to give the homeless food. So in that city a Paladin would be a criminal. We don't know the scope of the legal system yet, but I imagine that in a area controlled by a CE or LE group would have laws that a "good" character would not be able to obey.re: codes of conduct and loss of abilities,
there seem to be several tools available here:
-slotted abilities. allow no druid or monk abilities slotted if wearing the wrong armor, etc. (or just reduce the efficiency to near zero)
-flags. Criminal flag could obviously be code breaking for paladins. Using a poison (or slotting a poisoned weapon) could also give a []ihidden[/i] 'poisoner' flag that prevents slotting paladin abilities until removed by atonement.
What a rancid law (in a lot of european cities feeding birds is forbiddeden, but that is just insane). The paladin oath might sound good on paper, but Golaron has a whole empire of lawfull devil workshippers. In Cheliax they are the legitimate authority, but following their orders might be less than fun for a paladin.
What I am wondering is with no real class system how this will break down. Could it be possible to have a neutral-good or chaotic-good character with some but not all of the paladin abilities? A barbarian with an animal companion and wildshape?
Obviously these would have to be balanced out but it might give a little more freedom. For instance I've always thought it would be cool to base a character off this concept.
"Eh.... what??? Did that paladin just cast entangle on me?!"
I agree! Even with restrictions it'll be totally cool yo combine say a rangers skills with that of a rogue or a monks abilities with those of an assassin. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't support mixing alignment restricted archetypes. It wouldn't have the feel I'm used to.
A simple way would be to restrict the use of poison and stealth etc from a character who has earned paladin class merit badge. Just having a flag might not change the way a person plays the game. It would be just too easy to throw some spell and get rid of debilitating debuffs that you have deliberately acquired.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The topic of a paladin falling from grace has been debated to dead, then renimated to keep the discussion going.
Bluntly I see no reason to acknowledge paladin oats and falling from grace with any mechanic at all.
After all, what is preventing a good character from learing all or most of the skills usually associated with paladins?
Paladin oats made me giggle quite a bit
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snipWell if they are willing to code this, I see no problem (but a whole lot of work).
It is actually not that much work, the majority of this concept runs on the same code as the criminal flag.
Note on another post of yours
What prevents a non-paladin from learning most of the same skills and abilities?
Many, if not most, abilities will be tied to a certain role, you can learn those abilities but learning them gives you rank in that role, thus to learn smite evil would give you the paladin role, and you would have to make your paladin oath to learn it.
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I don't see any reason why paladins must stay LG, there are varients for paladins of different alignments, and for different churches. I think they just need you to select what church/religion/code you are going to swear fealty to inorder to train paladin skills.
Granted there won't be classes, but we do know that certain abilities will be marked as being part of a role, so a paladin that breaks oath can't use the abilities marked for the paladin role. It would certainly allow a mixture of concepts though.
Also, Lawful doesn't always mean one always follows the law of the land, particularly when those laws are against what you are fighting for. Lawful may look for legitimate solutions to a problem first however.