well.... I agree that by RAW there is no reasons TWF and Rapid shot can't be sued together.
I think the idea of a mad bomber is cool.
I think there are better ways to spend feats on an alchemist.
I would also rule, in my own game, it takes two hands to make, mix and throw a bomb. Drawing that motivation from art work of the iconic alchemist throwing a cask sized bomb with two hands. I don't think they are vials of volatile liquid like a potion. I think they are powder kegs.
But there really is no RAW basis for this.
IF I can TWF rapid shot haste by bombs.... then you have to throw all the arguements against gunslingers doing similar things out the window.
I usually rule on the side of less power, every time.
The Bottle he is holding in the Class image seems more like poison.
And it seems the ones he actually throws are Alchemical Weapons like Alchemist's Fire.
Also Potion Vials aren't that big..
Also Gunslingers have to reload. An alchemist just pulls the Catalyst and charges it and chucks it. Rapid Bombs I think is simply them learning to charge the Vial faster.
no im not talking about direct correlation of abilities, gunslinger to alchemist, im talking about handedness and game mechanics.
Alchemists must "reload" too. they have to mix/create the bomb. It's not from a per loaded bomb satchel. this is what fast bombs lets you do, it's like rapid reload, but better (offset with the limit per day of bombs)
The what is in his hands at what particular time arguement is that same.
I'm not talking about glass vials or poison or alchemists fire, but the specific art where he is holding a small wooden keg with a lit fuse, posed and ready to throw it... that's his bomb... in two hands. I can't see throwing something like that with one... and then of course there is the mix/making thing.
Which is the same issue of, where does a dual pistol wielders guns go when he is reloading?
Actually, they can mix the Catalyst before combat as has been pointed out.
He could be using a Fuse or Pellet Grenade.
The potentially overpowering aspect of a Mad Bomber type build like this isn't Fast Bombs but Force Bombs. An optimized Sorcerer using Scorching Rays can probably put out even more touch attack damage than the Alchemist, but energy resistance 10 will really minimize it while anything higher negates it entirely. On the other hand, Force Bombs kill everything.
I played a PC like this in Rise of the Runelords from about levels 12-15. I had an idea he might be a little "over the top", but I figured that it wouldn't be too bad since it was just for a few levels. Honestly it was pretty ugly though. None of the monsters could survive the bombs, and the PC's defenses were pretty strong too. His big weakness (besides only being able to bomb for 4 rounds per day) was a low Will save, but that just resulted in him blowing up another PC at the haunted mine.
After a while the DM set up a special restricted magic zone to stop the Alchemist from flying and turning invisible (which helped monsters have a shot to hurt him). He also began making it really tough to rest and regain powers so that I had to meter out the bombs more carefully. Having a backup plan like melee or summoning is definitely recommended!
Don't Force Bombs decrease the Bombs damage dice to d4?
That would make it a little more powerful against most enemies but not unsurvivable.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Force Bombs do indeed reduce the damage dice from d6s to d4s. It still ends up being a lot of damage though, and folks can't avoid it just by casting Communal Resist Energy or something similar. I believe the bombs also bypass SR, which can be a big deal at higher levels.
The mad bomber build can certainly be fun as a PC. It might not be right for every DM's game, but I guess that goes for most things.
Also for technicality reasons (since I'm a technical rules nazi sometimes lol) if you take the Musket Master Archetype and use alchemical cartridges to reload you have a "free action" reload time since the archetype also gives you Rapid Reload for free...bye bye to your "handedness and game mechanics" lol...its a fantasy game with magic and elves...if the rules can allow it then that's why its FANTASY :)
although you still require two hands to do that i understand its not a 100% argument to the alchemist but then again it doesn't explicitly say he HAS to use both hands...but again its GM's call which makes any RPG game awsm to me...fun GM fun game...or nazi GM...relentless messing with GM ensues lol
rapid bomb discovery
what book is that in i can find it any of my books?
Do you mean Fast Bombs? If so, APG.
Fast bombs: An alchemist with this discovery can quickly create enough bombs to throw more than one in a single round. The alchemist can prepare and throw additional bombs as a full-round action if his base attack bonus is high enough to grant him additional attacks. This functions just like a full-attack with a ranged weapon. An alchemist must be at least 8th level before selecting this discovery.
This functions just like attack with ranged weapon. For those attacks granted by BAB. Because that is exact amount of bombs he can prepare in course of full-round action.
FAQ the FAQ, you can just say you read it like this, cos you are GM
I'd just like to point out that since the first time this thread died there's been a ruling on Confusion Bombs which allows the target to make a saving throw to avoid the Confusion effect.
Luckily the Concentrated Splash feat specifically says, "This feat cannot be used with an alchemist's bombs."
I guess the feat would probably work OK for an Alchemist throwing a non-Bomb splash weapon such as a flask of acid, but those can't be thrown quickly.
|
Hmm seems I missed that but wow that's kind of stupid, since alchemist bomb easily falls into that category.
The Alchemist is easily the worst victim of stupid corner cases. If you don't believe me, check out anything that lets you drink faster than normal, and then look if it works with extracts. There's a 90% chance it won't because of 'reasons'.
Concentrated Splash not working with bombs is just another example of it.
"It's not a bug. It's a feature." Seriously though, I think that bomb focused Alchemists are doing just fine without a "boost damage by 50%" feat.
You might be thinking of the Underground Chemist, which can retrieve and alchemical item as if drawing a weapon and can do sneak attack damage on one splash weapon attack per round. Concentrated Splash would indeed be a nice feat for such a Rogue, but generally speaking their damage per attack after the first attack will probably be a lot less than that of an Alchemist throwing Bombs. They're also much more susceptible to energy resistance.
|
I feel a similar build one of my buddies uses in PFS is too strong, if not broken.
He's got a lvl 11 alchemist now, putting out 4-5 bombs / round doing holy damage (holy bombs+exploding bombs discovery). He single-handedly defeated almost every enemy in Jormundun special and just one-shotted most in the regular scenario's. Extra bombs feats, +17 splash damage and sky-high ac easily make him stand above the wizards i've seen and make other damage-focused pc's in parties he plays with cry in jealousy. Touch AC... well, touch AC. And then I haven't even started on the stagger effect on his bombs, so that even if an enemy survives it's staggered 80% of the time.
On top of that, he has a broad skill set with insanely high modifiers, very often even outclassing my skill monkey bard.
I'm generally OK with this: he's always a welcome addition to any party because of his personality and keen eye for tactics... but he could've toned it down a little and makes me feel the good old 3.5 days are coming back thanks to unanticipated pc builds.
I definitely wouldn't want to GM for that character though.