Goblin Squad Member
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There is a world of difference between hunger/thirst and weapon sharpening.
weapon sharpening and such adds to the gameplay through effectively fueling demand for resources. It provides a constant drain on resources that has to be filled by gathering and crafting new resources/items of many different types. This system cannot be replicated basically without either weapon sharpening, having a player repair (costing resources) your gear, or the item degrading to the point of uselessness. As a result there is not effective way to reproduce the drain on resources (thus added gameplay) for those types of things.
Take a look at weapons for example (ignore possible rings/woundrous items..etc.). A normal metal weapon would require a kit that uses the same resources needed to craft it (but in lower quantity, so mithril for mithril, adamantine for adamantine..etc.) A +1 sword would need an enchanted version of that kit. A +1 sword with say 5 keywords would need an improved version of that other kit, a holy avenger would require a big kit. So you can have a large amount of different types of kits to fix the many different types of weapons the people in the world will use (or have replaced).
thirst/hunger sort of does, but not in anything remotely effective. For a hunger/thirst mechanic, What do you have to encourage people to farm many different types of resources and craft different types of food? how can you do this without everyone just using whats easiest and ignoring the rest? With changing debuffs (thus requiring different food) you force the player to keep a dozen different types of food on them or force them to run back home everytime its time to eat. The changing debuff is the only way to encourage players to farm anything other than the easiest food possible.
Is there a better way to get the player base to gather food resources then craft them into finished goods? yes get rid of hunger/thirst and have them provide many different buffs for low magnitude but high duration.
In the case you are arguing why would people use an optional buff potion? I mean who would use potions, they should just throw those out. Also wands those are optional buffs so throws those out too.
in the end of it the question needs to be. What can a hunger/thirst mechanic provide for gameplay that cannot be provided better another way. Is there a way to provide incentives for players to do something rather than punishing them for not doing it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Keep in mind 1 game day is every 6 hours.
I support this mechanic. Everyone should eat at least one significant meal a game day.
I was factoring that. But I wasn't factoring time logged out. I don't think it would be good to go off on a business trip and return to find a charactr I have spent years making just a skeleton in the trash bin behind the tavern.
So out-of-game time should not factor the need to eat and drink. But starting my adventuring day with a good square meal sounds like it would be a good thing and help keep the economy flowing. Grabbing some jerky from my pouch while travelling isn't bad, and rationing my water flask as well.
It would become habitual. Not a bother. And a good reason to meet at the pub before venturing off to an adventure with friends.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'd rather hunt the rabbit, skin it, and roast the meat over a fire. Keep a handful of salt in your kit. Everyone should have basic cooking skills. Forage up some wild garlic or onion. Uncover some volunteer potatoes in an abanoned farmyard. Roasting our game on a spit over a fire would surely bring an inquisative bugbear or two who smelled the roasting pheasent.
It is supposed to be a role playing game rathr than a race track to max level raiding after all. Haven't you all had enough of that kind other of gaming yet?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'd rather hunt the rabbit, skin it, and roast the meat over a fire. Keep a handful of salt in your kit. Everyone should have basic cooking skills. Forage up some wild garlic or onion. Uncover some volunteer potatoes in an abanoned farmyard. Roasting our game on a spit over a fire would surely bring an inquisative bugbear or two who smelled the roasting pheasent.
If you have ranger or druid skills, sure. I don't see a bard lasting too long off the land. And since "Survival" may not be a class skill for your class, then spending too much time training it may make you inellegible for your level 20 capstone.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'd rather hunt the rabbit, skin it, and roast the meat over a fire. Keep a handful of salt in your kit. Everyone should have basic cooking skills. Forage up some wild garlic or onion. Uncover some volunteer potatoes in an abanoned farmyard. Roasting our game on a spit over a fire would surely bring an inquisative bugbear or two who smelled the roasting pheasent.If you have ranger or druid skills, sure. I don't see a bard lasting too long off the land. And since "Survival" may not be a class skill for your class, then spending too much time training it may make you inellegible for your level 20 capstone.
They did away with capstones.
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Goblin Squad Member
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They did away with capstones.I'd rather hunt the rabbit, skin it, and roast the meat over a fire. Keep a handful of salt in your kit. Everyone should have basic cooking skills. Forage up some wild garlic or onion. Uncover some volunteer potatoes in an abanoned farmyard. Roasting our game on a spit over a fire would surely bring an inquisative bugbear or two who smelled the roasting pheasent.If you have ranger or druid skills, sure. I don't see a bard lasting too long off the land. And since "Survival" may not be a class skill for your class, then spending too much time training it may make you inellegible for your level 20 capstone.
Missed that, thanks.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@being
thats fine, but dont force RP by giving everyone a penalty that doesnt do what you want.
because most people are not going to hunt a rabbit, skin it and roast it. They are going to go to the local merchant in a town and buy 10 weeks of trail rations and/or jerky. The second they get the penalty they are going to eat one unit of those and move on.
Also while the game will support role playing its not a role playing focused game.
Is there anything, anything at all, that if food provides buffs and you can make camp like you want and eat food like you want, but there was no hunger/thirst to force you to do it, that it would diminish your role play? The answer is no. You do not need a mechanic to force you to role play, thats just bad game design. So every 6 hours, stop your character, find some animal to hunt, kill it, make a fire, cook it, then eat. You can do all of that without having any reason for hunger/thirst.
@ Imbicatus
they basically replaced capstones with dedication. So what will happen is that the more (for example) fighter skills you slot and use you will get some sort of bonus that helps with what a fighter does. They mentioned that perhaps these would evolve into capstones when you get to that point. but basically they did that in order to provide people with a benefit for focusing on one path vs multi-classing. A capstone is nice but with an estimated 2.5 years to reach that point you have a large time gap where you see none of those benefits, so dedication. The devs also mentioned that it provides them with a tool to make class specific adjustments to keep them competing with multi-classed characters. The example given was if some multi-class combo was more powerful at smiting evil outsiders than a paladin, then they could tweek the paladin bonus to compensate without changing any of the core abilities and affecting multi class paladin balance.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm not trying to force RP. I'm trying to help build a complete land. Most people shouldn't have to hunt and skin a rabbit, but that doesn't mean most people should not be able to cook anything.
I mean, I'm rabid about ZZ Top but I don't live on TV Dinners.
So would it kill your enjoyment if it isn't a race to endgame and the raid? No. So deal yourself from the same deck you deal others.
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Goblin Squad Member
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For a pure mechanics pov, hunger/thirst is not appropriate for this game. it adds nothing that a different mechanic couldnt do better overall.
From a RP point of view its even weaker, since RP does not need a mechanic to force people to do it, which is what hunger/thirst would do.
The thing is what benefit is there to hunger/thirst. For you its RP. But why force the RP through a hunger/thirst mechanic? Why dont you just RP it without needing it? People who want to RP can and people who dont dont. So you can do your cooking without the need for the mechanic.
I agree, hunting and cooking and such needs to be in the game. I love the idea of setting a camp and bugbears smelling you cooking and attacking. I disagree that hunger/thirst is needed for that. Hunger/thirst has nothing to do with a race to end game. its a mechanic that punishes people for not eating a trail ration every couple of hours. This adds nothing to the game.
it will kill my enjoyment if im forced to eat a trail ration every couple hours for no reason other than...ehhh eat it.
In a properly designed sandbox game there is no endgame, thats the point of a sandbox vs a themepark. Its not about the race to the end, but it is about sound mechanics that serve to add something meaningful to the game. hunger/thirst does not add anything meaningful that cannot either be done better another way or be done without forcing people to RP eating and drinking.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ leperkhaun
Thanks for the additional info. I've been reading the backlog blogs from the kickstarter but I'm new to the forums so I missed it. Looks interesting, and will make skill training more varied. Although I'm pretty sure my two destiny's twin characters will be a mostly pure Monk and a mostly pure Druid.
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Goblin Squad Member
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For the game economy and for the social interaction opportunities. For me it isn't really about the RP: the RP potential is only ambience. The economy and culture is the meat and potatoes of the game.
I understand clearly you don't like the idea. That doesn't mean it isn't an idea that might be good for the game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@being
my main issue with it is that you can get economy and culture just as effectively with cooking and everything that goes with it, without penalizing people who dont want it.
its not that it wouldnt work, i think that there is a better way to do it, that adds everything hunger/thirst adds and more, while providing people with an incentive to do so not by punishing people.
@Drakhan Valane
i disagree, i think most people will end up with a couple of stacks of trail rations and not touch any of the other cooking if its a hunger/thirst mechanic. since trail rations will cover hunger/thirst and will be really easy to get.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Missed that, thanks.They did away with capstones.I'd rather hunt the rabbit, skin it, and roast the meat over a fire. Keep a handful of salt in your kit. Everyone should have basic cooking skills. Forage up some wild garlic or onion. Uncover some volunteer potatoes in an abanoned farmyard. Roasting our game on a spit over a fire would surely bring an inquisative bugbear or two who smelled the roasting pheasent.If you have ranger or druid skills, sure. I don't see a bard lasting too long off the land. And since "Survival" may not be a class skill for your class, then spending too much time training it may make you inellegible for your level 20 capstone.
Doing away with the capstones is only part of the story there: they are thinking of adding something called 'focus'. It is intended as a mechanic that will allow 'pure' builds to be competitive with optimized multiclassing. Basically you can train other things and its cool: if you need it you can set up your skills (you will have more than you can slot later on in the game)so you only have the skills of one class slotted. When you do that you get some sort of capstone-like enhancement not otherwise available.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@being
my main issue with it is that you can get economy and culture just as effectively with cooking and everything that goes with it, without penalizing people who dont want it.
its not that it wouldnt work, i think that there is a better way to do it, that adds everything hunger/thirst adds and more, while providing people with an incentive to do so not by punishing people.
I'm confident I understand your position and preference. I think it is for us together to bring these things up and argue them out as we have so the devs are sure to get plenty of input while they are designing and choosing some, discarding others, and finding yet more ideas that our conversations may spark.
So in my view you done your duty just like I done mine.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Then I get a clear ioun stone and ignore the whole system. (For those that don't know: In the Tabletop game, this single item sustains a creature without food or water.)
I am in the group that I don't think it adds much. Also, I like to think my characters while I'm not logged on as them are doing the things to sustain them (eating, sleeping, etc.)
The only game I actually liked that hunger was a big part of it was The Ship, and usually you'd be killed before hunger became an issue... Unless you were playing with NPCs, which wasn't really much of a challenge.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Having to eat/drink does add one interesting idea. When at war, the option to burn crops, destroy food stores, disrupt supply lines suddenly becomes a very important thing.
Gives the characters that are not combat oriented something to aim for. A guerilla fighter type - perfect for a rogue or ranger.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think the last time I saw hunger/thirst mechanics was EQ1.
I beleive WoW and every other MMO made since eliminated it because
Annoyance Factor > Fun Factor.
Its 2-6 bag slots tied up for nothing.
Its something that would penalize people for death even more (who would bother to thread food & drink?)
I would hate to see PFO take a step backwards in this regard.
Now, if they want to tie food & drink to the refresh mechanics (the "ability reset button") that could work.
Something along the lines of different quality food & drinks which determine how long the refresh takes and how many abilities reuses it refreshes.
cheap bread and water gives you 1 extra ability reuses, common bread & water 2 extra ability reuse, elegant meal and fine drink 4 extra ability reuses.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think the last time I saw hunger/thirst mechanics was EQ1.
I beleive WoW and every other MMO made since eliminated it because
Annoyance Factor > Fun Factor.Its 2-6 bag slots tied up for nothing.
Its something that would penalize people for death even more (who would bother to thread food & drink?)
I would hate to see PFO take a step backwards in this regard.
You don't take what you can't afford to lose. That's part of the reason for long periods of time between eating requirements. If you plan to be out for 5 game days, you take a big stack. Or if you don't want to risk that much, just go out for a couple game days and you only need a couple rations.
Now, if they want to tie food & drink to the refresh mechanics (the "ability reset button") that could work.
Something along the lines of different quality food & drinks which determine how long the refresh takes and how many abilities reuses it refreshes.
cheap bread and water gives you 1 extra ability reuses, common bread & water 2 extra ability reuse, elegant meal and fine drink 4 extra ability reuses.
That's an interesting idea. It gets away from the boring "food as a buff" concept.
What if health didn't regenerate automatically - and food simply healed? I dislike the whole health automatically recovering system in MMOs, but I'm sure most don't (although it would be more akin to the PnP).
Similarly, health could be divided into different types (similar to EVE). Energy (Shield in EVE) and Body (Armour in EVE). The Energy would regenerate automatically... your body on the other hand needs rest (an Inn), healing (Skill or Magic) or food.
Just some ideas. Food itself as a necessary item is a good idea from the siege warfare, gathering, market demand and money sink points of view. You guys just don't like debuffs it seems. Would this be more appealing?
What if health didn't regenerate automatically - and food simply healed? I dislike the whole health automatically recovering system in MMOs, but I'm sure most don't (although it would be more akin to the PnP).
I actually thought about this. If your health regenerated at a slower rate when active, then faster when you rested (but still slower then most MMOs) and when you eat/ drink it regenerated quickly. That might be more acceptable to some.
It's an option to consider.
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I actually thought about this. If your health regenerated at a slower rate when active, then faster when you rested (but still slower then most MMOs) and when you eat/ drink it regenerated quickly. That might be more acceptable to some.
It's an option to consider.
I don't like the idea of forcing a buff/debuff mechanic on people if it would cause such a divide, but I think that it's resulting in a denial of the many merits of food as a resource and necessity (and the complexity it adds to the game.).
When at war, the option to burn crops, destroy food stores, disrupt supply lines suddenly becomes a very important thing.
I'd rather hunt the rabbit, skin it, and roast the meat over a fire. Keep a handful of salt in your kit. Everyone should have basic cooking skills. Forage up some wild garlic or onion. Uncover some volunteer potatoes in an abanoned farmyard. Roasting our game on a spit over a fire would surely bring an inquisative bugbear or two who smelled the roasting pheasent.
- It provides another form of input to the WEIGHT/INVENTORY MGMT game. That's an important aspect of play and of planning expiditions. The Designers have already stated that everything in the game (except coin) will have WEIGHT and characters will be limited in how much they can carry. They've also stated that weapons, armor and spells will ALL have some consumable components in order for the character to use them at peak efficiency and those components will all figure into your carried weight. Food/Drink will just be another type of input into that system which has game-play consequence.
- It's a character development game-play decision because it makes training in Survival or Cooking or learning spells to create Food and Water have some signifigance as a character development decision. Because that character can actualy reduce thier own (and thier parties) encumberances by not needing to pack as much food and therefore allowing more room for other gear. So instead of a training decision always being an obvious +1 to bonk with sword or magic blast variety #22. It's an actual more interesting game-play decision as in what to train in.
- It provides an interesting/important reason for characters to go visit INNS or spend a little downtime in camps, which can lead to greater human interaction.
- It makes the location of Inns somewhat important from a logistics standpoint.
- It also brings into gameplay (in the Mass Battles/Strategic perspective) the importance of food in Logistics in running extended millitary campaigns for players, and of course interdiction to counter those logistics. Again that'll already exist due to Weapon/Armor & Spell consumables being part of the mechanics of play. Food just adds another variety of item into that mix.
Basically I'm now looking for ways that food would be acceptable.
Also one of the arguments against food is that other things can serve its purpose better. I disagree - ; stuff like sharpening stones or armour repair kits only apply to specific people that use that equipment. Food would apply to everyone. Utility spells like summoning a bottle of water would have impact. In addition just having something that provides the purpose doesn't mean variety doesn't improve it. In this form potions wouldn't make food a pointless item. That's like saying "They have Goblins, guess there's no point in putting in Skeletons."
Rant over ^^.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I can go with a chug of ale from a hip flask. But fried lobster? A rack of lamb with mint sauce? Fish stew? It's a battlefield not the Golden Corral.(What?!?!?!?! Eating a meal in the middle of a fight?!)As a follower of Cayden Cailean, getting liquored up mid battle is not only encouraged, it's expected. =P
Clearly, you're one of the troops and not an aristocrat :p
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ok so I though on a good system for awhile and here is what I came up with:
Hunger is not a bar that gives you debuffs as it depletes. It is a bar that gives you a buff. Hunger depletes at a rate of 10% every third of an in-game day you are logged in. So if a day is 3 hours, you lose 10% of your hunger bar every hour.
If you get to 80% hunger you lose a very small portion of your buff. You lose a pretty significant portion at 50% and by the time it reaches 0% you have no remaining buff.
Eating food recharges 10% of your hunger. Each time you eat it modifies your bonus based on the last 10 meals you ate. It removes the buff from #10 and replaces it with the last thing you ate.
There are many types of food providing many different buffs. Food buffs are largely determined by food type / ingredient quality / the skill of the cook. There are three basic qualities of food though:
Trial Rations- This provides the lowest buff. It does not expire and requires no preparation.
Camp Food- This is food prepared over a campfire or some other in-the field facility. Meals eaten in druid wildshape also are of this quality. This gives a buff slightly stronger than trial rations. It generally must be consumed while still hot/fresh AKA shortly after being prepared.
Home-cooked / Tavern Food- This is the highest quality of food. It must be prepared in a kitchen. Generally kitchens are found in player homes inns, and taverns. It must be eaten while still hot/fresh.
Thirst depletes much quicker than hunger but it is also far easier to control except in environments with low amounts of water. This is because if makes the most use of the equip-able food and water system described in the misc section. Like food it depletes at set intervals with a low bonus reduction when you hit 80% thirst, a high bonus reduction at 50% thirst, and no bonus at 0% thirst.
Items used to reduce thirst are:
Water- Water gives a pretty generic bonus like increased HP or something useful to every class. You can drink or refill drinking containers with water in numerous locations including lakes, streams, fountains, or even capturing rain via. the survival skill.
Beverages- These are things like milk and juice. They provide different bonuses than water that are more specific and generally stronger.
Alcoholic Beverages- These provide the strongest bonuses by far, but also incur penalties for a short duration after they are consumed. Things that reduce the effects of poison (Like being a dwarf) reduce these penalties.
Taverns have one huge benefit in terms of the hunger / thirst system. If you go into a tavern and order a meal / drink over time your ENTIRE hunger and thirst bonus will be converted to the last thing you ate or drank in that tavern, and you incur no additional penalties if that drink was alcoholic. So if you order a meal of prime rib with a flask of premium dwarven ale, you'll get 100% of your food/drink bonus converted to that by spending time in the tavern, even if you had been subsisting on trial rations and water up until that point.
Music/Performances- Being the area of someone using the perform skill while eating slightly increases your food/drink bonus. This is also true in taverns while your food bonuses are being converted.
Equip-able Food/Drink- There is an equipment slot for a waterskin and belt pouch w/ rations. Placing food or water into these slots causes you to automatically consume them when you hit 90% or lower food or hunger. Each holds an entire in-game day's worth of food and water. A empty waterskin or one partially filled with water will automatically refill each time you stand close to a water source.
It's extremely non-tedious. It gives you (probably about five hours) or in-game time before you lose any significant bonus from hunger, and 2 hours before you lose any at all. Dealing with thirst is only a matter of keeping your waterskin full, and a single waterskin lasts an entire in-game day (likely six hours).
This system uses food a lot like equipment. You get bonuses for using it, and you get even better bonuses for using stronger versions of it. But you take no penalties for not using it.
This system provides reasons to seek food and beverages. For different characters to seek different kinds. And even creates a useful role for alcohol while not making it something mandatory or even preferable for every character. (Non-alcoholic beverages are probably preferable without a strong poison resistance/fortitude.)
I actually thought about this. If your health regenerated at a slower rate when active, then faster when you rested (but still slower then most MMOs) and when you eat/ drink it regenerated quickly. That might be more acceptable to some.
It's an option to consider.
I don't like the idea of forcing a buff/debuff mechanic on people if it would cause such a divide, but I think that it's resulting in a denial of the many merits of food as a resource and necessity (and the complexity it adds to the game.).
I agree. I think there is a middle ground, but how to reach it I'm unsure of <grin>
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Goblin Squad Member
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I support andius's idea. The best food should be found in restaurants and taverns, or if you have an exceptionally good chef with you on the trail.
I think it should work in a sort of combo quality system where you can mix all kinds of food with spices and herbs and other additives to improve it, but add too much and it spoils it. So you have an open, flexible cooking system.
I think fresh things should go off and rot if not used, but to varying degrees still be edible or useful.
But also foods like dried meat, smoked or salted don't go off, but at less useful, but you could still throw them in a pot with some fresh vegetables or something and improve them.
Stale bread is still edible, moulds bread is not.
Some cheeses actually improve when mouldy.
Cooked food will keep longer than raw, so for a top meal you need fresh ingredients.
Dry veggies are edible, better in a pot. Rotten veggies are not.
Grain and seed keeps indefinitely, so carrying a bit of meal and water will get you a hearty but not amazing meal whole on the road, if you have the skillet and skill to prepare it. Suddenly including a chef on your travels becomes very inviting., but it's the inns and taverns where you will find the best restoratives.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I guess if coin can be virtual, food could too. It would still exist as inventory-occupying stuff when produced and traded, but once you 'use' it it could just add to a counter of how many days you're able to go without running out. This would allow people to load up at a tavern/farmer's market/etc. without the problems of the annoying EQ1 system. No, it's not realistic, but neither is untouchable virtual coin.
In the PFRPG there is a halfling foodstuff called a 'wandermeal', which sounds like a calorie-dense energy bar that lacks long term nutrition but can stave off hunger for a while. They're very cheap at 1cp, but if you eat just those for 7 or more days in a row you become sickened.
A full in-game 'day' is 6 hours, according to "Time is the Fire in which We Burn", since a 'minute' in-game is 15 seconds, real-world.
Then in the Stamina and Refresh section of "A Three-Headed Hydra" it says "four-hour in-game day". I haven't seen anything about a 3-hour day, except in the sense that the daylight half of a 6-hour day would be 3 hours, real time. The 'four hour day' is from a more recent blog post, but I really hope that's a typo or miscalculation. It's already annoying me enough that a PFO year will have something like 1461 days, while PFRPG and Earth years would both have 365.25, and all three have seasons in synch with one another.
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Goblin Squad Member
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so its a slowly increasing debuff?
A hunger/thirst mechanic that takes something away if you dont eat/drink is a penalty. Doesnt matter if you use the word debuff or not.
If my character is sitting in town, i forget to log out and he sits there for 10 hours, and I come back and he is weaker than when i left....you gave him a debuff (i am not talking about say a potion wearing off or some such). Only instead of hitting 3 hours and getting a debuf icon, your bar goes down and you still get a debuff (penalty).
The problem i have is what does this add to the game? Encourage people to eat/drink. There are better ways to do that.
What do you think is going to happen, people will go out and gather all sorts of random components, get high cooking skill, and craft a 5-star meal that is required to be eating quickly.......or are they going to carry 10 stacks of lightweight trail rations and just chomp on those? I mean really? Do you think people will go through all that effort if there is a simpler, quicker, easier that provides the exact same effect.
your system is not "no penalties for not eating/drinking". If my character loses something overtime because he does not do a specific action that is a penalty. In some systems this can be good, but this is not a good system.
So if you want food/drink to provide a buff why not get rid of the hunger/thirst, have food give you 2-8 hour buffs, allow many many many different kinds of buffs so that players have a meaingful choice about what food they eat. If you allow food to provide different buffs (not just remove a static penalty/debuff) you encourage people to farm many different materials and also give value to having high skill in cooking.
because i am telling you without a doubt almost no one is going to go through the trouble to gather/make a homecooked meal if all they need to do is buy some cheap trail rations and just eat those. they are going to buy 10 stacks of water and 10 stacks of trail rations, put those in the slot and leave it at that. The vast majority of the player base will not do anything that does not add value. There is zero added value from a mechanics purpose to setting up camp, gathering resources, spending time making food, then not being able to save food for later so you have to do this every time you want to eat/drink.....if you can eat a jerky and drink some water and get the exact same benefit. thats because adding 50% to your debuff bar with all that trouble is about 10000 more work than eating just 5 trail rations and 5 drinks of water.
The only way to encourage people to do anything other than trail rations is to force people to have higher quality meals the larger the debuff. in which case people will still just eat rations and water, and if the debuff goes down they will run to an inn, pay some gold (with no player interaction) get rid of the debuff and go back to rations/water.
If you do not provide a meaningful difference people will not go out of their way, with the exception of a very very few amount of people. The only objects that do not have a mechanical value that end up being wanted and valuable are rare items that can be used to show off with. Cooking/drinking is not a system for that.
If you are talking about food giving you different bonuses while also getting rid of the hunger debuff....why not just skip the idiocy of the debuff and just allow food to give straight buffs?
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Goblin Squad Member
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@being
People also need to pee and poop otherwise they become debilitated and die, but i dont see you suggesting a bladder and poop meter where when the meter is empty you get a buff, but then as the meters fill up the buff starts going away. They you have to either dig a hole and use that or build an outhouse.
might as well make it when your hunger bar goes completely empty you die, since you know people die when they dont eat/drink.
Using this level of realism for a mechanic is not sound unless there is a reason for it. in say a survival game a hunger/thirst mechanic makes sense. In a sandbox game that does not focus on that or that level of realism....it doesnt make sense.
So if you want food/drink to provide a buff why not get rid of the hunger/thirst, have food give you 2-8 hour buffs, allow many many many different kinds of buffs so that players have a meaingful choice about what food they eat. If you allow food to provide different buffs (not just remove a static penalty/debuff) you encourage people to farm many different materials and also give value to having high skill in cooking.
because i am telling you without a doubt almost no one is going to go through the trouble to gather/make a homecooked meal if all they need to do is buy some cheap trail rations and just eat those. they are going to buy 10 stacks of water and 10 stacks of trail rations, put those in the slot and leave it...
Couldn't they just have food tiers and the higher the tier the longer you remain "full"? Wouldn't that be motivation enough to buy better quality foods when possible? If they scale the pricing structure correctly it would be more economical for players to eat better foods and drink better.. drinks :p
I'm not speaking to the buff/debuff question. I would like to hear what the Devs think about the idea to be honest. They might all be against it, or have their own reasons to include it, who knows.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Using food as a "buff" mechanic then a "debuff" results in mechanicaly the same thing but makes food much more sell-able. I like Andius's idea of having different types of food/drink replace the standard "buff" with thier own. Where you eat them or the manner in which they are prepared effects the strength of the "buff" applied and I think having the "buff" wear off on a 6 hour timer (or when you get killed) makes it something that's not going to bug people on too frequently a basis. Sounds like a pretty solid system to me...and initialy it doesn't make it much more complicated to impliment then spells or potions which will already be in the game, so you'd be re-using some of the same resources for development of the system. All sounds good to me. YMMV.
This is what the devs have said about eating/drinking in the past:
Food scares me. I worry that it is a "fine for a while, but sucks forever after" game system.
Lol kinda bodes ill for all the discussions being put forth in this thread eh? It'll still be nice to see how they view the matter.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I dont think so, lets say trail rations are the easiest and quickest to get (and they should be). A trail ration lasts say 2-3 hours. Then a stack of 10 of those lasts almost an entire day. Ill just eat trail rations rather than farm up a bunch of different stuff. It might cost slightly more money (but probably not i mean, its trail rations)but the overall effectiveness is there, and it can be gotten without all the hassle.
its not the same thing. A buff is a choice. You can have many different types of buffs so you can choose what you want to add. You might as well have everyone poisoned in the game and make them craft antidotes to live.
the debuff mechanic gives you a static penalty. Lets say -2 to con (for example) and decreased out of combat health regeneration. That never changes. When you eat a food, that goes away. The effect is +2 and increased health regen, that you are required to do for no purpose at all.
A buff mechanic can say give you many different options, +2 to other stats, increased out of combat health regen, maybe slightly faster walking/running...etc.
you know the two are different because one takes away from your character for no reason at all, and the other provides a (small) bonus.
You can test this simply. Lets say you make a brand new character in PfO. You sit in town. Stay logged in for 10 hours. If you come back and your character is WEAKER than when you left, its a debuff.
the other way is this. Is hunger/thirst the same as drinking potions (say something like bull's strength, ignore things like antidotes or healing potions)? does the hunger/thirst mechanic do anything similar to drinking potions? does having to eat something to get rid of a debuff similar to drinking a potion? No. Is drinking a potion something your character has to do to continue being as great as he currently is in a long term basis? No. if your character never drinks another bull strength will it negatively impact him? No.
Will someone who uses a potion be slightly better than you for a period of time, sure, BUT thats the INCENTIVE to use potions, not the requirement.
You can test this simply. Lets say you make a brand new character in PfO. You sit in town. Stay logged in for 10 hours. If you come back and your character is WEAKER than when you left, its a debuff.
I doubt the Devs would go for having any debuff effect you in town. Not one related to some upkeep mechanism.
I know it was talked about here, but that doesn't mean it'll pass the Devs.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you want buffs, you should travel with a bard to inspire you. Or a wizard to cast haste. Or a cleric to cast prayer. I'm opposed to food as buffs.
Functionally, there isn't anything different from eating a meal that gives you a haste effect or drinking a potion that does the same thing, and potions are a core of PnP. If the costs of eating meals for effects are inline with potion rules, with a discount for being less mobile, then I don't see a difference.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@valandur
which has no bearing on what i said. set the character outside a town. nothing attacks him or any such. If you do NOTHING and he ends up weaker than before then what makes him weaker is a debuff/penalty.
@drakhan valane
and getting a debuff for not eating is not boring? I mean really? Getting rid of a static debuff is not boring? Being permanently poisoned and having to drink an antidote of some kind every few hours isnt boring?
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Goblin Squad Member
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@valandur
which has no bearing on what i said. set the character outside a town. nothing attacks him or any such. If you do NOTHING and he ends up weaker than before then what makes him weaker is a debuff/penalty.
Which is true either way. If you do nothing, either the buff wears off (and is not renewed, because you're doing nothing), or the debuff occurs (because you're doing nothing.) In either case, if you stop taking the drugs (Food, Potion, Stimpak, whatever), you get weaker than you were on them.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@drakhan valane
and getting a debuff for not eating is not boring? I mean really? Getting rid of a static debuff is not boring? Being permanently poisoned and having to drink an antidote of some kind every few hours isnt boring?
It's still boring, but at least it's meaningful. It's no different from sharpening stones to keep your blade in good shape. Having to eat every 30 minutes to get some boring buff you should be getting from a party member is overdone. We want to encourage teamwork, not remove it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@dario
not true. Create a brand new character. Do nothing. if without you doing anything that character gets weaker, thats a debuff. its not the effect of a buff wearing off.
@drakhan
its not meaningful, its a mechanic that adds nothing to gameplay other than being massively annoying. Unless you work in a requirement to use a large variety of foods/drinks in order get rid of the hunger/thirst, and that you HAVE to use different foods drinks, a hunger/thirst mechanic will not have gameplay value through improving the economy or player interaction.
So here is the thing, eating food to get a buff is not the same as getting a penalty for not eating. You cannot equate removing a penalty with being the same as buffing something.
its like saying adding oil to your car as the same effect as adding a Nitrous boost, thats just plain idiocy. Oil is like the hunger/thirst mechanic. You have to add more of it to keep functioning properly. A nitrous charge is a buff, it makes you go faster.
So in a car game, unless you are going for ultra realistic why would you make someone put oil in their car every couple thousand miles? There is no net added effect other than annoying, VS ading nitrous boosts allows the player to choose how they want to improve their car. Hmmm nitrous boost, maybe a supercharger, maybe stiffen the suspension...etc.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So here is the thing, eating food to get a buff is not the same as getting a penalty for not eating. You cannot equate removing a penalty with being the same as buffing something.
Exactly. Getting a buff is something someone in your party (perhaps you you!) should provide to the group. Therefore Food should not provide boosts. However if you need to eat to get rid of a penalty (like you do in PnP), then that improves the game economy.
its like saying adding oil to your car as the same effect as adding a Nitrous boost, thats just plain idiocy. Oil is like the hunger/thirst mechanic. You have to add more of it to keep functioning properly. A nitrous charge is a buff, it makes you go faster.
So in a car game, unless you are going for ultra realistic why would you make someone put oil in their car every couple thousand miles? There is no net added effect other than annoying, VS ading nitrous boosts allows the player to choose how they want to improve their car. Hmmm nitrous boost, maybe a supercharger, maybe stiffen the suspension...etc.
The Gran Turismo games are great. Guess what: You had to change your oil in those games. It wasn't necessarily between every race. It did have a negative impact if you never did it. It was a little touch of realism that improved the game.