Goblin Squad Member
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I am not a fan of how the OP made a blanket statement saying gamers as a whole are turned off that this will be a tab target game. People like different things, I for example hate having to aim and twitch around when I'm trying to relax and play a game. I enjoy more tactical things. So, perhaps your opening post should have said something like "gamers who enjoy twitch type, aim based combat are turned off because this is shaping to not be the genre of gameplay they enjoy."
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am not a fan of how the OP made a blanket statement saying gamers as a whole are turned off that this will be a tab target game. People like different things, I for example hate having to aim and twitch around when I'm trying to relax and play a game. I enjoy more tactical things. So, perhaps your opening post should have said something like "gamers who enjoy twitch type, aim based combat are turned off because this is shaping to not be the genre of gameplay they enjoy."
In all fairness to the OP, I can say I did experience the similar reaction of "How disappointing, another tab-target mmorpg - again" sort of response being aired in some comments around and about that time of "here's PFO, let us know what you think?" spreading some info out there.
I think this reaction is for a few reasons:
1. Players might feel the 00,000's of hours already playing using that have drained any remaining desire for ANOTHER game that feels the exact same in combat.
2. Cannot improvements be made over the years?
3. Other more actiony systems sound more exciting - but are they an improvement?
1-2 make me concerned about tab-target in PFO obviously. But 3. actually makes me not so concerned, as actiony seems like a very high bar to make work really well in mmorpgs.
Nevy, I think Ryan is of the opinion that tab-target has various uses for eg it's a system that is tried and tested and works.
But for eg, ranged-dps all feel the same be it bow/gun/magic in tab-target combat I have personally experienced. I'd like that unique feeling of a bow and arrow, or of casting a spell that flies through the air and hits another player some distance away to be contrasting than just different numbers and different graphical representation. A bow is a physical device so material damage is good for the numbers, but how about elevation improves range because the arrow dips in flight due to gravity being worked in? What about near water a fire spell's effects are reduced and so forth and so on? Maybe more and better egs can be thought up. At least in more actiony games you can aim the arrow, direct where it flies to and so feel more engaged with the informatin the game world is presenting to you (physics module in your head lighting up from visual assessment of information streaming to you live; instead of understanding the game rules of which numbers at which times = success = ) while doing combat.
Regarding tab targeting, I had a half-formed idea which I wanted to throw out to let others consider...
A character's ability to choose/acquire targets might depend on how close the target was, how big it was, local cover, and related types of things. It would also depend on the characters skills, maybe stats, and maybe racial bonuses. So this might sort of be related to TT initiative. Together these could affect how fast a player could cycle through possible targets with the tab-targeting. (Reverting back to the close default target should be fast).
YES! Something like this where you're assessing targets and obviously starting out very low skilled so that progression massively impacts on your range of options and ability to use a bow in many ways. Eg the target selection.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Regarding tab targeting, I had a half-formed idea which I wanted to throw out to let others consider...
A character's ability to choose/acquire targets might depend on how close the target was, how big it was, local cover, and related types of things. It would also depend on the characters skills, maybe stats, and maybe racial bonuses. So this might sort of be related to TT initiative. Together these could affect how fast a player could cycle through possible targets with the tab-targeting. (Reverting back to the close default target should be fast).
The main thing that is important to me is that it not take player skill at manipulating the UI in order to effectively tell the system what you're trying to accomplish. Rather, it should be simple to tell the system what you are attempting, and then your character skill should be the deciding factor.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The main thing that is important to me is that it not take player skill at manipulating the UI in order to effectively tell the system what you're trying to accomplish. Rather, it should be simple to tell the system what you are attempting, and then your character skill should be the deciding factor.Regarding tab targeting, I had a half-formed idea which I wanted to throw out to let others consider...
A character's ability to choose/acquire targets might depend on how close the target was, how big it was, local cover, and related types of things. It would also depend on the characters skills, maybe stats, and maybe racial bonuses. So this might sort of be related to TT initiative. Together these could affect how fast a player could cycle through possible targets with the tab-targeting. (Reverting back to the close default target should be fast).
The easiest way to accomplish that, I think, is to give an overview of targets to the side like EVE Online does, and allow people to click on the target they wish to interact with. Unfortunately, that takes away a bit from the immersion. Still, I'm not totally against it. I agree that twitch targeting, and even tab targeting to an extent, encourages people to jump and move around a lot more than they otherwise would, which ultimately means that more twitchy gamers will have an unnecessary edge. I'd rather have an overview-like interface than have to deal with paladins that jump more than they walk/run, despite heavy armor.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The easiest way to accomplish that, I think, is to give an overview of targets to the side like EVE Online does...
Yes! There needs to be a Tactical Map that makes it easy to understand what's going on, and easy to tell the system what you're trying to do.
There's literally zero chance in real life that there could be someone stabbing me in the leg and not realize they were there, and yet that's exactly what happens in these games that pretend they're super-realistic.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't agree that a great sword should hit everything in front of you. You'd have to pretty strong to blow-through even one person, particularly if you didn't hit them perfectly. To think that anything short of giant strength could swing a sword through three or four people is very hard to accept, even in a world with other quite fantastic things. I don't think a sword is an AoE attack at all.
...
That is one thing no MMO, nor even stand-alone game (that I know of) does: Stop the blade when you hit. Everyone just slashes through their target or worse (pinwheel attacks a la Guild Wars 2). It would be inspired for a game to focus on the end of a swing as well as they have on the start and follow-through.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It would be inspired for a game to focus on the end of a swing as well as they have on the start and follow-through.
I had a GM for a while in college who was on the fencing team. He also had become enamoured of En Garde!, a D&D White Box-sized book covering duelling rules.
He was creative, so his games had enough fun for us to put up with having to use appropriate manoeuvres, terminology, and references for our sword-battles. We eventually stopped worrying about why orcs always used epees while goblins used foils...dwarves fought sabre.
Weird game :-).
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Goblin Squad Member
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It is obvious that each interaction players have with the interface have some options, in this case how to target? Area, aiming, tab target, sticky targeting? (Some of these will overlap).
Goblinworks can't make everyone happy. Ryan said it'll likely be tab targeting iirc. I would prefer the aiming mechanic....I am not very good at it, but it does give a greater sense of realism, allows for friendly fire in a logical way, and hopefully disallows botting as found in battlegrounds in many games.
If tab targeting is the default, so be it. I'll go with it. Some things might eventually drive me away toplay another gaem. Who knows? I do find it funny that many Darkfall forums claim Darkfall is the best MMO on the market, while many other forum posters think it's absolutely horrible! How can that be? Both will be true, depending on what the buyer is looking for in a game.
Stay calm people! PFO will not have every single feature that will make you happy! It will have some, some will be missing. This game is not made for an individual; it's being made for an audience. Hopefully a big audience. One of the things I would like to see is an actual application process where everyone that wants to play submits a biography of their character and a proposed name. GW would screen those application before ever allowing that person to play. Will that happen? Of course not! That's far too restrictive for a mass audience! I'd like to see it, but it won't be there. I'm not crying about that. I'm playing the Pathfinder Goblinworks sells.
So far they've done an amazing job listening to their audience with more crowdforging to come. I'm looking forward to it!
(I'd still like to see the Arena Pit Fighter simulator in the not too distant future!)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Sounds like Pathfinder to me!But they're not making Pathfinder. They are making Pathfinder Online, which shares naught but aesthetics and lore. You won't roll a 20 sided die to attack. You won't have 3 levels in fighter. This game is adapted for a different medium, and I don't see why it would real time would be okay but not real aim.
Projectiles should move straight (albeit subject to gravity) so moving targets have to be led, and blows can be dodged or blocked. These things can be mathematically modelled to an extent, or the game can leave it for twitch. The problem with the latter is that there is a portion of the population whose money is equally good as everyone else' who cannot effectively play twitch due to disability.With auto-aim there is no leading of targets or dodging incoming projectiles. If the projectile was fired at you, no matter how much you move you will get hit. It cannot be done a different way - because you have no control over the aim then every single attack would miss if there was an actual projectile that had to hit rather than a simple mathematical equation.
My money is just as good as your money, which is just as good as money from a person who's in a coma. If the game should be playable by everyone no matter what, then the guy in a coma deserves his character to be just as competent as yours or mine. This is the game we end up with: http://progressquest.com/
Latency is also an issue. Then you have to get into prediction systems and those usually end up at least partly clientside which in turn open up all kinds of exploits.Same exploits exist in auto-aim MMORPGS, but you also have the added bonus of massively larger bot populations due to how much easier it is to code a bot if it doesn't need to aim and can just select targets to determine if they are friend or foe.
TL : DR- Don't knock it until you try it.The problem with this attitude is the...
Let me begin by saying you come off as very narcissistic; not a great way to try and make a point. I also love the whole "twitch gameplay is ground breaking and tab targeting is tired" thought process. Both of these styles have been around forever and both can be considered tired. Darkfall Online is considered a failure in the MMO space, it is twitch based, so that kind of nullifies your blanket statement saying all recent mmos have failed do to them being tab target, no? What about Mortal Online? Oh, that's right, it was twitch based, and it failed. Interesting.
Let me let you in on a little secret, these games failed because of poor gameplay, rule sets, design and integration. SWTOR didn't fail because of tab targeting it failed because it lacked depth and isolated players. Mortal Online didn't fail because it was twitch based it failed because of poor game design.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It is obvious that each interaction players have with the interface have some options, in this case how to target? Area, aiming, tab target, sticky targeting? (Some of these will overlap).
Goblinworks can't make everyone happy. Ryan said it'll likely be tab targeting iirc. I would prefer the aiming mechanic....I am not very good at it, but it does give a greater sense of realism, allows for friendly fire in a logical way, and hopefully disallows botting as found in battlegrounds in many games...
My initial recommendation is that given there will be such a thing as 'backstab', character facing will have to be quantified and therefore the closer to direct facing your intended target is the greater the likelihood should be that your TAB selects that target rather than some other unless it is backstabbing you. In such a case then, and unless the reaction is a self-centered AOE attack, the ability to react will depend on your turning to face the backstabber.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It is obvious that each interaction players have with the interface have some options, in this case how to target? Area, aiming, tab target, sticky targeting? (Some of these will overlap).
Goblinworks can't make everyone happy. Ryan said it'll likely be tab targeting iirc. I would prefer the aiming mechanic....I am not very good at it, but it does give a greater sense of realism, allows for friendly fire in a logical way, and hopefully disallows botting as found in battlegrounds in many games.
If tab targeting is the default, so be it. I'll go with it. Some things might eventually drive me away toplay another gaem. Who knows? I do find it funny that many Darkfall forums claim Darkfall is the best MMO on the market, while many other forum posters think it's absolutely horrible! How can that be? Both will be true, depending on what the buyer is looking for in a game.
Stay calm people! PFO will not have every single feature that will make you happy! It will have some, some will be missing. This game is not made for an individual; it's being made for an audience. Hopefully a big audience. One of the things I would like to see is an actual application process where everyone that wants to play submits a biography of their character and a proposed name. GW would screen those application before ever allowing that person to play. Will that happen? Of course not! That's far too restrictive for a mass audience! I'd like to see it, but it won't be there. I'm not crying about that. I'm playing the Pathfinder Goblinworks sells.
So far they've done an amazing job listening to their audience with more crowdforging to come. I'm looking forward to it!
(I'd still like to see the Arena Pit Fighter simulator in the not too distant future!)
That's a good point about "some" player input to reduce auto-aim bots. Perhaps timing of different functions of firing a bow dependent on the feedback of the target information provided? Ie a sort of set-up by the player getting their eye in then rely on skills?
The selective thing is a good idea but what is better is access to experience then a steep cliff of factors eg integrating into a group, trying lots to find what you want to specialise skill-train etc.
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Goblinworks Game Designer
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My initial recommendation is that given there will be such a thing as 'backstab', character facing will have to be quantified...
Pathfinder tabletop doesn't have backstabbing or facing. It has sneak attacking, which has a different set of qualifiers.
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Goblin Squad Member
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My initial recommendation is that given there will be such a thing as 'backstab', character facing will have to be quantified...Pathfinder tabletop doesn't have backstabbing or facing. It has sneak attacking, which has a different set of qualifiers.
quite true, though I do also note, many of the qualifiers may or may not be possible. Without seeing combat in action, we can't make any assumptions on flanking. We know initiative isn't going to be in existance, so, the freebie to supprise round + first initative is going to be gone. Admitted the technical difficulties of either factoring in facing direction, or making combat in a way that facing or flanking are possible is well beyond me. I do suppose you would have a much better idea than I would on that though
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Goblin Squad Member
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We don't have to have backstabbing to have the mechanical requirements of facing. Backstabbing was just the first example I thought of that I thought would work. We can assume, I believe, that when I look in one direction I will be able to see another character or object but when I look the other way I will not. The engine has to know the facing already. So if our target is somewhere within view our tab targeting can work and if our target is not in our view we cannot.
We can also justifiably assume that objects hidden from us will not be visible to us, such that we cannot target them unseen.
So the targeting system seems it should be tied to the information being passed already to the client graphics. Yes?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Admitted the technical difficulties of either factoring in facing direction, or making combat in a way that facing or flanking are possible is well beyond me.
Determining flanking might be difficult with the constant movement of characters. Maybe we just get a bonus when multiple attackers are targeting a single enemy - it might not be +2 or +10%, but it might be easier to check on the fly and would sort of capture the value of combat teamwork.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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Here's why there's no facing in the tabletop game: How far can you turn around in 6 seconds?
For virtually everyone the answer is "all the way around". So there's no such thing as facing in a game with a resolution of 6 seconds.
If the "heartbeat" of our game is 1 second, you have to imagine how far can you turn around in 1 second?
The answer is very likely "most of the way around", which means maybe facing is meaningless, or maybe it is something like a hemisphere.
If the heartbeat is a half a second, it's probably a hemisphere.
It almost certainly won't be less than a half a second. So it almost certainly won't even be a quadrant.
This is one of those places where the "illusion" of realtime interferes with people's expectations of how they'll be playing - you might think your opponent isn't looking at you, but that's just because your client and your opponent's client are slightly out of synch.
What happens when lag interferes? Now the heartbeat might have lag spikes. What happens in that situation?
These are the reasons that most MMOs don't use "Facing" as a reliably indicator of the opportunity for one character to act against another.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you are fighting a foe to your 12 o'clock, how far can you turn around in 1 second (all the way). If you do, what does the foe do (clean you clock). SO it is not just what you can do, but how to spend focus. (player choice of focus on flanks changes sneak chance, but also defense. This is set/default value which can change for different situation, wider on patrol, narrower on combat, focused on line fighting. This could effect caravans, pickpocket, loose combat, formed combat, Commerce....
The rules on flanking need to be examined. 12, 4, 8 is flanked in many war games, but not in most RPG (why?)
If the attack on my flank is inconsequential, can character chose to ignore flanker so as to not give bonus to guy in front?
This is all topic for future, but I do agree it is more flanking and sneak attack than backstab.
This may even have to do with missile fire (is my character looking to see what is happening and move after flight is launched) or pickpocket (how actively is character watching for PP vs actively engaged in negotiation)
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Goblin Squad Member
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These are the reasons that most MMOs don't use "Facing" as a reliably indicator of the opportunity for one character to act against another.
I'm really curious. I know there were backstabbing mechanics in both LotRO and ToR, and they seemed to work well in both PvE / PvP for me.
Are we talking about something else here, or do those mechanics work differently than I think they do?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Slightly off-base, but World of Tanks uses a combination of Tab-Targeting and character (gunner) skill using a graphic CEP (Circular Error Probable).
The aim icon has a circle of error into which the shot might fall. If you have just charged across bumpy ground and suddenly swung onto target, your shot has a huge CEP. This shrinks according to how long you are prepared to aim at the target. The shrinkage rate is dependent on factors such as gunner skill and special aiming gear you have added. Each gun has a different minimum CEP to represent the inherent accuracy of that weapon.
So you might get lucky and hit whilst running past, or shooting at a large/close target that fills the CEP. Normally, however, you have to wait in the aim to reduce the CEP to a reasonable size before firing. A skilled gunner makes this faster, as do aiming enhancements. An inherently inaccurate weapon, however, will never be as good as a more accurate one.
This system nicely models sniping (long aim time from cover using accurate weapons) and strafing (inaccurate but fast firing while running/driving past at speed), as well as everything in-between.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Last I heard no manual aiming was going to be included, not even ground targeting for area-of-effect spells.Wait, what? Where was that said?
Sorry I'm late to reply:
Long and short of it is we don't know. Until we get a working combat model we're not sure how the annoying vs. fun factor will be. There are a lot of issues with location in a multiplayer environment that have to be carefully worked out, since anything that is an AOE involves some amount of negotiation between server and client as to where people actually are when these attacks go off.
We are looking at being tab targeting being the primary targeting method, and classifying targets as friend vs neutral vs hostile based on a number of inputs (active wars, flags, reputation, etc), so you won't be able to attack targets marked as friendly on accident. So single target friendly fire, i.e. stabbing your group mate in the back, is not likely.
AOEs will be targeted at specific characters and then spread out from there. How that will work in terms of friendly fire is up in the air.
Quote mainly refers to the issue of friendly fire. Added bold fonts to highlight the section relevant to my earlier post.
We are looking at... tab targeting being the primary targeting method...[Edit] Or were you more interested in the ground targeting aspect? I don't recall a statement on that.
It was in the very post you quoted from =D
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Goblin Squad Member
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It was in the very post you quoted from =DWe are looking at... tab targeting being the primary targeting method...[Edit] Or were you more interested in the ground targeting aspect? I don't recall a statement on that.
Ah! Sometimes, the particular phrasing of one relevant part of a post is so clear in my memory that I tend to forget there might be other relevant parts. Thanks :)
this thread was forgotten for about 6 months, it's good to see there'is always a debate, and reflexion around !
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Goblin Squad Member
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How to solve initiative in this system and synchronization of interaction between players?
Here is one proposal, but I already see flaws in it.
Initiatives are ranked from second 0 to second 6. Every second refreshes to show the new moves by players who acted in the previous second. (conflicts/ties where both players act to move to the same hex or interact with the same object at the same time are solved by rolls? the losing player then results to a player pre-set behavior his character would take, like aggressive, defensive, passive?)
Players have the option to delay their action by not choosing an action immediately?
Will Actions of Opportunities have to be like reflex time events (press X now to trip!) or Could players possibly pre-script behavior for their character?
6 seconds is a long time, but its also not long enough to resolve all the conflicts or scenarios that arise.
I am advocating a well developed pre-scripted behavior system for Players that will act as defaults in time of lag or conflict resolution.
The Original Baldurs Gate in 1998 had this system for multiplayer play. I think with lego-style programming framework for the player, or pre-set behaviors will accomplish lots to make this feasible.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I like tab targeting. I dont want to waste time and effort "mastering" the skills of game just so that i dont get massacred in PvP. (which I dont want any part of in the first place.)
If I wanted to play a first person shooter, then I would.
And if I wanted to play WoW, I would play WoW. Both arguments are equally valid in this context.
Personally I don't want to play an FPS or WoW. There are a lot of good alternatives to each.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I believe the nature of PFO will not hinge on combat mechanics, unlike Call of Duty.
I believe the nature of PFO will not depend on Leet gear, unlike World of Warcraft.
Based on these points, then so long as the combat mechanics are usable, render the advantage to those who know their character, and does not give the advantage to whoever can click or press key combinations faster, then it will be fine in my eyes.
The nature of the game should essentially be Pathfinder, a fantasy role-playing game. Roles are interplayer. It should be a more significant combat talent to coordinate with others in common cause, to overcome obstacles, to solve problems than to perform intricate finger gymnastics or acquire gear.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ Being I can so get behind this:
The nature of the game should essentially be Pathfinder, a fantasy role-playing game. Roles are interplayer. It should be a more significant combat talent to coordinate with others in common cause, to overcome obstacles, to solve problems than to perform intricate finger gymnastics or acquire gear.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Gear should actually be important, just not in the sense it is in WoW. In WoW and it's 5 billion clones you spend countless hours grinding to get the best gear available because of the stats it grants you. In Darkfall / Mortal / EVE gear functions as consumables. If you go out hunting the absolute best gear there is for countless hours so you can dominate PvP... one death is all it takes to lose it.
This takes gear to a much deeper level. Do you want to fit one guy with the best gear money can buy, or 10 guys with gear that will get the job done? Do you want one suit you cant afford to lose, or five you can? Done right, gear definitely drives meaningful player interaction.
Back to the original subject I don't want CoD or Darkfall level finger gymnastics, but I don't want it to be like in EVE, Wurm, or Runscape where I sit back and let my character do all the work for me. There is a reason I love video games and loathe televised sports. I want to feel like I'm a part of the action.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Gear comes in Tiers 1 through 3.
Tier: Most gear in the game, particularly weapons and armor, is broken down into three Tiers. Tier 1 gear is introductory. Tier 2 gear is more powerful, and intended to start replacing Tier 1 gear around 8th level in a combat role. Tier 3 is very powerful, and is only common among characters near the maximum combat level (who may still choose to use mostly Tier 2 gear, which is easier to bind and to replace).
I expect that most skills will be more in the 1-5 range, than the 1-20 range.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Attack skill and defense will be from +0 to+300
I believe you're conflating "skill" with "skill bonus".
For example, each skill's total bonus (which goes up to 300) has a minimum of the relevant ability score (e.g., if you've put no ranks in Stealth, your Stealth total will still be equal to Dexterity).
I am not aware of any official pronouncement on the actual range of skill ranks.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Nihimon
I have a feeling that max level in PFO will be analogous to lvl 12 in PF
I find it quite revealing that, even with a conscious effort to avoid using terms like "class" and "level", even the blogs resort to it because it readily conveys a shared meaning.
With some caveats and nuances, I'd agree with you and add that "min level" will be analogous to level 5 or 6 in PF. That is, with "min level" roughly meaning "finished with the tutorial / new player experience".
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Goblinworks Game Designer
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Skill Ranks go 1-20. You get +10 to your Skill Total per Rank, and you have to find various bonuses to get to the max Skill Total of +300.
Attack and Save upgrades go 0-60 (thus, cancelling each other out among equal opponents). They originally went up to 150, but we reduced the scale to reduce the gap among different level opponents (since they cancel, the effect of the change on similar-level opponents should be minimal). Temporary or persistent boosts can increase that (theoretical maximum currently unknown, but every attack buff comes with a countering defense buff somewhere). Each Tier provides a functional +50 (either a flat +50 for armor or because of the changing die average for the 3d200 attack roll). So a maxed out and heavily buffed defense may, indeed, wind up somewhere around 300 (150 armor + 60 upgrades + lots of bonuses) but that's emergent, not capped in the way that skills are.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It would be beneficial, I believe, if the combat simulator that has been proposed included characters we could outfit and level using a prototype store... possibly even with a rudimentary leaderboard.
It might generate great interest and provide a supplementary revenue stream to the Kickstarter fundss.
Probably we would be unable to transfer such characters into the game... but the potential is great.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Here are some thoughts on targeting. It might be challenging for the coders to implement, but would give players the option of which targeting method they used, and would give them the further option of improving their skill with their chosen targeting method.
Tab Targeting – player wants to use Tab targeting, so there is a skill that enhances the ability (let’s call this one “Targeting”) to select targets via tabbing through the options, and the higher the skill level the “stickier” the target selection becomes. At the highest skill levels the Tab target is 99% reliable.
Aiming – the aiming reticle is small and has a lot of “jiggle” at low skill levels, but as the skill of the player increases their aiming of their shot (say an arrow or wand) becomes more accurate, increasing the aiming reticle and reducing “jiggle”.
Another option may be necessary for wizards and sorcerers or any other spell caster who cast spells that are projected to a point in space through the power of the mind. Let’s call this skill “Projection”. As the caster’s skill goes up, the aiming point of the projected spell (think the path of a fireball spell or lightning bolt spell) becomes more accurate.
The last targeting option would be targeting a general area, typically shown on the ground as a red ring, or flashing area where the projectile or spell is going to hit. Call this type of targeting “Area targeting”. At low levels the targeting “blob” shown for the user is very large and the projectile may land anywhere within the area, but as skill gets higher the potential targeted “blob” shrinks, making the user’s projectile more accurate.
Summary:
Targeting Skill - One on one attacks, archers, throwers, wand users etc. may opt to improve their targeting skill by spending experience on “Targeting” to increase the ability to tab through possible targets better and “hold the target” more accurately.
Aiming Skill – Missile weapons, sword strikes or any other attack could use a targeting reticle that, at low levels would be large and inaccurate and jiggle a lot, reducing accuracy and damage, while higher levels would shrink the reticle and virtually eliminate jiggle.
Projection Skill – Casters can increase the damage and targeting of the spell targeting by increasing their “Projection Skill” making the arrival point of missile spells and projected spells and objects more accurate.
Area Targeting Skill – Anyone using an area of effect spell can increase the odds of their intended target area being affected by increasing their “Area Targeting Skill”. At higher levels the intended area of effect target blob is small and the likelihood of a hit is much greater.
All of these targeting options should expend a similar experience point cost and training time so as not to disadvantage any particular play style or targeting preference.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Hardin. Your system sounds insanely complicated to implement and the manual aim system sounds gimped. I know I wouldn't train full manual aim over tab targeting without a really good reason to do so because even though I enjoy it more it would leave me heavily disadvantaged.
However that does give me an idea. In both Freelancer and Star Wars Battlefront II (not sure of the original) you could lock onto targets in a very tab-target like system even though both games were manual aim. Those games mainly used it as a way to allow the players to track their opponents but you could take it a step further.
What if most non-magical attacks were smart-targeted (manual aim with generous aim assists). However the game also came with a large array of tab targeted abilities and area targeted abilities. For instance magic missile and many other spells, pets, and non-AoE melee attacks are directed at your target.
The game would offer many great character builds that are exclusively tab-targeted, and many that are exclusively smart-targeted and ground targeted, and many that combine the two to some degree but the breakdown would be so that any group that doesn't use both types of abilities would be at a disadvantage vs. one who does because some major roles rely on abilities from one type of aiming or the other.
So I could go with a very smart-target heavy build, and Nihimon could go with a very tab-target heavy build and both of us would play a very meaningful part in our groups.
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Goblin Squad Member
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No developer would implement a optional targeting scheme without testing and balancing it. To think so seems a little rash. But allowing users options would provide paying their chosen method. Balancing the different techniques would also keep tabbers from having a statistical advantage of twitchers. That only makes sense. Tab targeting allows, for example, an archer to fire an arrow through 20 characters between the bow and the target, which is silly. Even sillier when you implement character mass and collision. Tabbing in a mass combat environment would give you 100 targets to tab through. I'd take twitch or area over tabbing any day in that scenario.
There has to be a way to offer players options and still provide meaningful targeting. This might not be the way, but offering only one option is a weak answer.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I figured that the DCUO system of 'smart targeting' was what was requested in a 'tab-targeting' request:
Normally, ranged attacks are directed at the legal target closest to the player's reticule. Only if there are no targets in that area are will the attack be targeted at empty space.
TAB locks onto the target that would have been selected for an attack, or rotates through targets if there are more than one in the area. Once a target is locked on, all attacks are directed towards that target until the lock is broken.