Tab-Targeting


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Goblin Squad Member

Can a character activate a skill when a tabb-ed target is out of range and forfeit the skill(it goes into cooldown)?

Will such an activation(in case a skill can be activated) hit another enemy(not-tabbed) that is in range?

Goblin Squad Member

Aeioun Plainsweed wrote:

Can a character activate a skill when a tabb-ed target is out of range and forfeit the skill(it goes into cooldown)?

Will such an activation(in case a skill can be activated) hit another enemy(not-tabbed) that is in range?

Good questions for the devs.

I think we know so far that Area-Effect spells are the only abilities that will hit someone other than your target. My hope would be that attempting to activate an ability on an invalid target would not trigger a cooldown.

Goblin Squad Member

Aeioun Plainsweed wrote:

Can a character activate a skill when a tabb-ed target is out of range and forfeit the skill(it goes into cooldown)?

Will such an activation(in case a skill can be activated) hit another enemy(not-tabbed) that is in range?

I doubt we or the devs know yet. Though ranged combat is part of their Milestone 3 goal by mid Oct iirc...

exta:
But there was an interesting idea mentioned of an overlay of targets (something like EVE?) - in that context instead of tab-target just saying in/out of range and then choosing either in or out = hit or not activated/used compared to in = hit vs in then moves out just before you activate = skill cool-down as you describe;

In the above situation you pick targets with variable "to hit" stats eg range, cover maybe etc etc vs your skill. In that context it does not matter if it moves out of range (it becomes a changing %), it let's the computer calculate based on it's own preferences and data it can gather best and produces a suitable result. That way the variability is part of the player judgement of using the skill is part of factoring in your choice of target and helps the computer do it's own calculations based on change and network performance?

That would be my guess for a good method.

Goblinworks Game Designer

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Aeioun Plainsweed wrote:
Can a character activate a skill when a tabb-ed target is out of range and forfeit the skill(it goes into cooldown)?

There are no cooldowns presently in the design, unless you count Refresh feats.

If your target is out of range and your client knows it's out of range, you can't use the attack.

If your target is out of range but your client thinks it's in range (e.g., the target is moving at the edge of your range and your client and the server aren't quite synched), you'll press the attack and the server should immediately let your client know the mistake. You lose nothing but the time it took you to push the button and get the out of range feedback.

If your target moves out of range while you're animating the attack, it will fail and cost you the Stamina you spent to activate the feat (and, indeed, would use up a charge of a Refresh feat). This is entirely intentional, and one of the drawbacks of slow attacks (which do a lot of damage) is that they're easier to outrange or interrupt. Keep in mind that most attacks don't root you during the animation, so you can move to keep the target in range while you're animating.

Quote:
Will such an activation(in case a skill can be activated) hit another enemy(not-tabbed) that is in range?

No.

Goblin Squad Member

Stephen Cheney wrote:
Aeioun Plainsweed wrote:
Can a character activate a skill when a tabb-ed target is out of range and forfeit the skill(it goes into cooldown)?
There are no cooldowns presently in the design, unless you count Refresh feats.

*snaps* I knew that, but forgot about it.

Goblin Squad Member

Hmmm. I had forgotten or entirely missed that as well.

This will be interesting to see if it works or not. I like the balance of having super powerful abilities that are on a longer cooldown, but it is annoying when you have a bunch of abilities on cooldown and you're trying to remember what you can activate.

I hope there is more than the refresh abilities to balance the lack of cooldowns though. I could see people going into PvP, spamming their most powerful refreshes until everyone is dead / they have none left, then just sitting around in a settlement until they reset.

Goblin Squad Member

Andius wrote:
I hope there is more than the refresh abilities to balance the lack of cooldowns though.

Stamina. You'll only be able to do so much every six seconds.

Other than that, I have no problem with someone going out and using up all their high-power abilities in 10 minutes then sitting around town crafting and chatting for four hours or whatever.

Goblin Squad Member

Yeah, if your uber 2-handed cleaving strike feat takes 5/6s of your stamina meter, there might not be much umph left for defensive feats in the next 6 seconds.

Goblin Squad Member

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Nihimon wrote:
Other than that, I have no problem with someone going out and using up all their high-power abilities in 10 minutes then sitting around town crafting and chatting for four hours or whatever.

This is horrible. By doing that you are removing yourself as a PvP target and hurting the hard working and honest RPKers erm... I mean PvPers. Characters should only be able to enter towns if all of their cooldowns are up.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Please. Stick to tab-targeting. A large part of the gaming community hates it ? I agree. But let's be honest here. These people won't play this kind of sandbox game anyway.

Tab-targeting ain't the "old" way. It's just a different way. More and more MMORPG are going with the "action" gameplay these days. GW2, TESO, WildStar, Tera, etc... Please leave us Pathfinder.


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Audoucet wrote:

Please. Stick to tab-targeting. A large part of the gaming community hates it ? I agree. But let's be honest here. These people won't play this kind of sandbox game anyway.

Tab-targeting ain't the "old" way. It's just a different way. More and more MMORPG are going with the "action" gameplay these days. GW2, TESO, WildStar, Tera, etc... Please leave us Pathfinder.

Yea, I'm not worried about this, because tab-targeting is the only way that would resemble something loyal to the PF tabletop... with dice rolls and stuff. You couldn't call it PFO if it had Twitch combat, so I won't beat the dead horse here.

Goblin Squad Member

A little secret: I'm impressed with all the stuff GW has mentioned. But this area is the one that's got me narrowing my eyes wondering how well they are going to be able to make it. I accept and understand PFO is a bigger game than just combat as it should be *deep breath of fresh, snowy mountain air* but nonetheless /be that as it may...

Goblin Squad Member

Papaver wrote:
Nihimon wrote:
Other than that, I have no problem with someone going out and using up all their high-power abilities in 10 minutes then sitting around town crafting and chatting for four hours or whatever.
This is horrible. By doing that you are removing yourself as a PvP target and hurting the hard working and honest RPKers erm... I mean PvPers. Characters should only be able to enter towns if all of their cooldowns are up.

You have a strange sense of humor, but I think I'm starting to pick up on it :-)

Goblin Squad Member

Audoucet wrote:
Please. Stick to tab-targeting. A large part of the gaming community hates it ? I agree. But let's be honest here. These people won't play this kind of sandbox game anyway.

What are you basing this argument on?

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Andius wrote:
What are you basing this argument on?

Obviousliness.

Goblin Squad Member

I don't find it so obvious. I've seen absolutely nothing to support that there is any correspondence between a preference for tab-targeting and a preference for sandboxes.

In-fact all of the most twitch based MMO's I've played (Darkfall, Mortal, and Xsyon) have been sandbox titles.

I'm not advocating for full on Darkfall style combat in PFO, but I don't see any reason to conclude that people who like faster paced combat that many find more immersive, do not also prefer sandbox worlds with more freedom to create and immerse yourself in your character.

Goblin Squad Member

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I dislike a 100% Tab Targeting system, but not as much as I hate 100% mouse-and-twitch. I prefer a combination of tab selection, character skills and abilities, and player input - something like the World of Tanks aiming circle.

Yet I'm quite keen to play the Pathfinder sandbox.

Goblin Squad Member

Say no to twitch! In my opinion it isn't immersive at all in fact I find it the opposite as I'm paying too much attention with my character's movement.


Twitch combat... CAN NOT, and WILL NOT work for a game that is based on a tabletop dice rolling system. In fact, tab-targeting IS dice-rolling (just larger dice rolls done faster, and by a computer).

Goblin Squad Member

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Qallz wrote:
Twitch combat... CAN NOT, and WILL NOT work for a game that is based on a tabletop dice rolling system.

To be clear, PFO will not be trying to emulate the tabletop dice rolling system. It also won't be "twitch".

Valkenr wrote:
The target/ability bar has really been done to death and i think a lot of people are looking for a new feel.
I don't disagree with that. I think there's a huge design space to be explored. We just won't be exploring the one where you aim with player skill and twitch in response to stimuli.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Andius wrote:

I don't find it so obvious. I've seen absolutely nothing to support that there is any correspondence between a preference for tab-targeting and a preference for sandboxes.

In-fact all of the most twitch based MMO's I've played (Darkfall, Mortal, and Xsyon) have been sandbox titles.

I'm not advocating for full on Darkfall style combat in PFO, but I don't see any reason to conclude that people who like faster paced combat that many find more immersive, do not also prefer sandbox worlds with more freedom to create and immerse yourself in your character.

Well those titles are great exemples : I never played Darkfall, but a quick research seems to indicate there was a total of 3000 active characters in NA+EU, including alts, in 2011 :/. And it's the most succesfull of those three.

Goblin Squad Member

Audoucet wrote:
Andius wrote:

I don't find it so obvious. I've seen absolutely nothing to support that there is any correspondence between a preference for tab-targeting and a preference for sandboxes.

In-fact all of the most twitch based MMO's I've played (Darkfall, Mortal, and Xsyon) have been sandbox titles.

I'm not advocating for full on Darkfall style combat in PFO, but I don't see any reason to conclude that people who like faster paced combat that many find more immersive, do not also prefer sandbox worlds with more freedom to create and immerse yourself in your character.

Well those titles are great exemples : I never played Darkfall, but a quick research seems to indicate there was a total of 3000 active characters in NA+EU, including alts, in 2011 :/. And it's the most succesfull of those three.

mate trust me you have no idea what your talking about. If you think the only reason those games suffer on playerbase is because combat you should do your research better.

Edit: as for the better part of this lil convo, I'd say if the programmers would be willing to do a little extra legwork I fail to see why you can't switch up targeting a tad with OPTIONS to fit everyones preferences if only a tad.
Champions Online as much as I hate to bring it up gave you everything from regular tab targeting to crosshair in center of screen and when you clicked your attack it went to the enemy you were pointed at. hell someone threw out darksouls which I'd say wouldn't be so bad for anyone who wants to use a controller for this game.

Double Edit: as for me as long as the game has a key for me to lock screenlook and not have to hold my righmousebutton 24/7 will be all I need.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Ashgan wrote:
mate trust me you have no idea what your talking about. If you think the only reason those games suffer on playerbase is because combat you should do your research better.

I trust you, but I ain't the one who brought them up. :)

My point is, I don't believe that the majority of these kind of gamers (not necessary YOU or Andius) will ever be a customer-base stable enough to be relied upon. Since DF is used to disprove my point, I merely say that DF isn't that great of an exemple.

Goblin Squad Member

Audoucet wrote:
Ashgan wrote:
mate trust me you have no idea what your talking about. If you think the only reason those games suffer on playerbase is because combat you should do your research better.

I trust you, but I ain't the one who brought them up. :)

My point is, I don't believe that the majority of these kind of gamers (not necessary YOU or Andius) will ever be a customer-base stable enough to be relied upon. Since DF is used to disprove my point, I merely say that DF isn't that great of an exemple.

thatsa kinda blanket statement with no real foundation in anythin, sos all I'm gona say is we will have to agree to disagree on that point.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Well it's the problem with opinions based on personal experience I guess. But I think that recent MMO history tends to prove me right. But really, I don't want to go in a heated debate with you, so I won't ask you to agree. :)

Goblin Squad Member

I'll admit it's not incredibly strong evidence, but it's the only evidence that's been presented.

I personally would prefer something other than tab targeting and have presented PFO to people who think everything but the probability of tab-targeting sounds great, and then went on to say they probably wouldn't play based on that. Granted these people were Darkfall players, but I think the tab-target system is so worn out it is a huge turn off to many people disgruntled with current MMO's. And that quite a big target audience.

There is a middle ground between tab-targeting and twitch combat we've dubbed "smart-targeting", and that's what I'm an advocate of.

Goblin Squad Member

Suggest choice of 1) Tab-targetting, 2) twitch-targeting but with reduced base probabilities (base [due to situation -- light; cover; distance; other such as damage, fatigue, spells which effect both target and attacker, provide basic minus to hit; and benefits of equipment, training, ....],and uncertainty of twitch [random 10% failure added to twitch due to uncertainty of client]), 3) <suggest more>

Goblin Squad Member

I think most games that have tab targeting also have some kind of smart targeting that makes melee combat a little reasonable. By smart targeting I mean when you activate a skill it automatically targets the closest enemy and activates the skill on him. I think this is a good addition to tab targeting if players can turn it on/off in settings.

Goblin Squad Member

I like smart targeting, similar to what DDO has. Basically you move the reticle around, and your target for your attacks is the target closest to the reticle. you can press tab to 'lock' the closest target to your reticle, or to switch between available targets if you already have someone locked. Finally, if there is no potential target in the way you can simply swing/shoot the attack at air, or a location on the ground (forget exactly how it was done for AoE's in DDO). This last part is important if there's stealth mechanics in the game; if I know someone's stealthing in front of me I should be able to flush him out with AoE's regardless of whether there's an available target near his location or not.

This would have to be adjusted based on the realities of the game system, of course, but I hope something similar finds its way to PfO. The big point is I hope to not receive "there in no valid target" popups when I know there's an invisible valid target right there! :)

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Andius wrote:

I'll admit it's not incredibly strong evidence, but it's the only evidence that's been presented.

I personally would prefer something other than tab targeting and have presented PFO to people who think everything but the probability of tab-targeting sounds great, and then went on to say they probably wouldn't play based on that. Granted these people were Darkfall players, but I think the tab-target system is so worn out it is a huge turn off to many people disgruntled with current MMO's. And that quite a big target audience.

There is a middle ground between tab-targeting and twitch combat we've dubbed "smart-targeting", and that's what I'm an advocate of.

I believe you, but in my entourage, it's the opposite. We just won't play a game with a reticule. Doesn't mean you're wrong or anything, just that we don't want to play the same game.

Goblin Squad Member

Lam wrote:
Suggest choice of...

I'm a big fan of giving players a choice, too. What I really don't want to see is an interface where the difficulty the player experiences in trying to acquire a target is used as a proxy for the difficulty that player's character should experience in trying to acquire that targer.

Also, I see you've finally picked an avatar :)

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Nihimon wrote:
Lam wrote:
Suggest choice of...

I'm a big fan of giving players a choice, too. What I really don't want to see is an interface where the difficulty the player experiences in trying to acquire a target is used as a proxy for the difficulty that player's character should experience in trying to acquire that targer.

Also, I see you've finally picked an avatar :)

Yeah, this.

Goblin Squad Member

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Nihimon wrote:
What I really don't want to see is an interface where the difficulty the player experiences in trying to acquire a target is used as a proxy for the difficulty that player's character should experience in trying to acquire that targer.

Seconded.

My Uber-skillful swordsman shouldn't suffer because I am clumsy with the mouse and controls. It's supposed to be a Role-Playing game, not an arcade first-person shooter.

Goblin Squad Member

It's about what the player is experiencing: The flow of combat, how much control they have, the back-and-forth between them and the opponent, how much time they have to decide and how much information they can make use of to anticipate the opposition and if the flow of battle means it's worth taking a big risk or holding back and waiting for the opponent to make a mistake first etc etc...

All about fun decision making. I think adding muscle-use skill via control of the input device is ideally less for mmorpgs. Tbh I have had much more of the above in some TT battles than mmorpgs. So I wonder if the devs can work out a way to achieve that?

Goblin Squad Member

If there was an option to switch between standard tab-targeting and 'smart-targeting' I would be happy. I think it's clear we aren't going to have any target-less twitch option, so these two seem to be the stronger options, and I don't see one as being totally mechanically superior to the other.


Yea, I don't think it has to be "Tab" targeting necessarily... so long as its HARD-targeting of some sort.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

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I just want my cursor ! If you want some kind of option though, don't see why not. As long as I got my mouse cursor option. :p

Goblin Squad Member

Agreed. I see people wanting both, so why not both?

Goblin Squad Member

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Being wrote:

Based on these points, then so long as the combat mechanics are usable, render the advantage to those who know their character, and does not give the advantage to whoever can click or press key combinations faster, then it will be fine in my eyes.

The nature of the game should essentially be Pathfinder, a fantasy role-playing game. Roles are interplayer. It should be a more significant combat talent to coordinate with others in common cause, to overcome obstacles, to solve problems than to perform intricate finger gymnastics or acquire gear.

We have a winner!!!

Goblin Squad Member

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Jeez, if you guys hate Tab Targeting so much why not just rebind it to "Q" or something. Or even simply click on your target with the left mouse button.

Default key bindings are not mandatory, you know.

Spoiler:
:D

Goblin Squad Member

Andius wrote:
To me Mass Effect style aiming with Original Guild Wars style abilities and ability selection would be the Holy Grail of combat systems.

Having now played ESO I feel vindicated in this statement. It feels like breathing. It's just that fluid and natural. 10/10

Goblin Squad Member

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Andius wrote:
Andius wrote:
To me Mass Effect style aiming with Original Guild Wars style abilities and ability selection would be the Holy Grail of combat systems.
Having now played ESO I feel vindicated in this statement. It feels like breathing. It's just that fluid and natural. 10/10

I only played ESO in beta, so maybe it's changed a bit since then. However, if the combat is basically the same as it was in beta, I hope PFO does not go that route.

I recall it feeling spammy and not very tactical. I hope you have to make smart decisions about every attack you make in PFO. I hope there are tradeoffs to using any given attack versus another. I don't mind having to position yourself, circle-strafing and other "twitchy" type of gameplay, but I hate it when it's just a mindless cycle of pressing keys 1 through 3 repeatedly and occasionally throwing in key 4, 5 or 6 without any real decision making necessary. It boils down to using skills just because they're available.

I want to have to seriously consider whether I should use that special attack on key 5. Heck, I want to have to seriously consider whether to use key 2 or 3, because of the impact it could have on the entire fight, not just the current round.

I know I'm probably just setting unrealistic expectations and that PFO will be more of a standard MMO combat system, but hey, I can hope, right? :)

Goblin Squad Member

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Having never had perceptible hand/eye coordination, I dread the entrance of twitch. I'm one of those people who can't watch the fight, because I have to make sure I'm watching my UI at the edge of the screen, ensuring I use only the ability I intend, and not the one next to it.

Goblin Squad Member

Eh. ESO can be tactical as opposed to spammy if you play it tactical as opposed to spammy. Same way as Guild Wars. When I'm playing I'm trying to make sure I snare the right opponents, taunt the right opponents, and place my heals right so my girlfriend can roast things without getting beat on, while she's spewing out tons of damage and pushing opponents away from me when I need a moment to heal up.

I'm sure it would be much less tactical if I just min-maxed my tanking abilities but I'm pretty happy given we are 2-manning group content 4 levels higher than us.

Goblin Squad Member

I love twitch gaming...when its for combat flight sims or similar games (like space combat in SWG).

Ideally, I'd prefer something like the "smart-targeting" being discussed. You aim in the general area and a single target skill locks onto the closest target. AOE melee skills fire off without the need for a specific target. Range AOE can be ground targeted or have a specific target to center the effect on. Direct-fire ranged attacks would require a target, and you'd probably want to pick it rather than let "smart-targeting" decide, although it would be up to the player to decide which they wanted. DDO and Neverwinter probably are pretty close to my ideal.

Goblin Squad Member

Jazzlvraz wrote:
Having never had perceptible hand/eye coordination...

Hah! My dad used to say I was as graceful as a three-legged moose with polio, while lamenting the fact that he didn't play catch enough with me when I was a kid :)

I have to say that Goblinworks' announcement lo these many moons ago that they would not be going for "twitch" filled me with immense relief. I think that was the single-biggest problem I had with Darkfall, even bigger than the fact that almost everyone I met out in the wilds tried to kill me.

Goblin Squad Member

Traianus Decius Aureus wrote:
Ideally, I'd prefer something like the "smart-targeting" being discussed. You aim in the general area and a single target skill locks onto the closest target.

I'm a lot more comfortable with that idea now than I was when it was first mentioned, mostly because I now see the way it makes it possible to guard someone simply by having bodies between them and the folks trying to kill them.

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:
Jazzlvraz wrote:
Having never had perceptible hand/eye coordination...

Hah! My dad used to say I was as graceful as a three-legged moose with polio, while lamenting the fact that he didn't play catch enough with me when I was a kid :)

I have to say that Goblinworks' announcement lo these many moons ago that they would not be going for "twitch" filled me with immense relief. I think that was the single-biggest problem I had with Darkfall, even bigger than the fact that almost everyone I met out in the wilds tried to kill me.

Haha! I seem to remember that started to turn out "not so well" for those guys, all the time. Also that you resented turning red for defending yourself. ;)

Goblin Squad Member

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Whatever they go with, they need to make sure Circle Strafing provides no advantages. That is a highly annoying game element. And is one of the reason I am wary about reticule targeting. I still really like the GW2 targeting model.

Goblin Squad Member

Bringslite wrote:
Haha! I seem to remember that started to turn out "not so well" for those guys, all the time. Also that you resented turning red for defending yourself. ;)

That's a great point about how the "consequences" in most Open PvP games are so perverse they're meaningless.

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