I'm new to PF (been playing 4e for the last 4 years), but I did play 3.5 throughout its entirety. I'm starting in a new campaign next weekend, and I was thinking of playing a Lion Shaman Druid. The rest of the group, so far, is a summoner, and a bone oracle.
We are allowed a 36 point buy (I know right?!). All Paizo material is allowed, but races are restricted to the core rulebook only. No 3.5 stuff.
Can anyone push me in the right direction for an optimal build? We'll be starting at level 1.
With a 35 point buy you should be able to do just about anything you want. The lion shaman archetype is based around summoning and wild shaping. (Of course that's why my lion shaman druid is primarily a caster/archer).
Your first question should be what concept you want to follow with the lion shaman. Wildshape would mean to boost your str and con as much as possible with wisdom being a third attribute. Again with your 35 point buy you should be able to have str, con AND wis plenty high. Heck you can probably have solid dex too.
If you instead want to focus on summoning your lion shaman will be able to summon improved cats and summon them in a standard action instead of a full round. That's actually a seriously powerful ability. Throw "augmented summoning" on top of that and your cats are going to be pouncing, full attacking monsters.
What sort of lion shaman do you want?
I generally lean towards rogue-ish characters. So, I wanted to focus on cats due to the stealth and scouting aspects of it. I want to focus on melee, but not completely neglect casting.
Basically, I want it to fit sort of a rogue playstyle (not skillmonkey, but stealth, ambush, etc.).
I'm not even dead set on playing a Druid, but I wanted to play something different than what I'm used to, but still remaining in my playstyle. I have a week to create a character.
I would avoid the shaman builds--plain Druids are better for the most part, except for maybe the dino shaman.
Lion shaman would fit your rogue-ish melee goals pretty well. Lion shamans gain things like increased speed, low light vision or additional natural attacks while in normal form.
I think the shaman builds are fine. They are flavorful and the options they provide are meaningful mechanically, particularly the ability to summon your main animal type in a standard action, which means you can get your summoned animals into the fight a full round earlier than a plain druid. That's a big deal with charging pouncing lions.
Well, I think you nailed it: the shamans are best for summoning, not for wild shaping. Summoning is strong, but I find it tedious and it slows the game down.
Losing Wild Shape until level 6 and then basically having no further benefit to Wild Shape from Druid levels is pretty disappointing, both mechanically and thematically. The upside, at least, is you can use the Shapeshifting Hunter feat to just switch entirely to Ranger levels...
Well, I think you nailed it: the shamans are best for summoning, not for wild shaping. Summoning is strong, but I find it tedious and it slows the game down.
Losing Wild Shape until level 6 and then basically having no further benefit to Wild Shape from Druid levels is pretty disappointing, both mechanically and thematically. The upside, at least, is you can use the Shapeshifting Hunter feat to just switch entirely to Ranger levels...
Wildshaping into lion form at a +2 to the druid level should not be under-estimated mpl. Every druid I've ever played had a single wild shape form they took for combat, so getting that +2 is a huge benefit that is offset by a -2 to wildshape form for non-feline shapes, but my druid almost always uses non-feline shapes for scouting anyway, so it has been a very minor cost for a huge gain in her primary form.
To me the biggest issue with lion shaman is the same as any archetype, and that is that you lose certain abilities to gain the archetype abilities and sometimes you lose more than you gain. Losing "venom immunity" and "a thousand faces" is a pretty big deal actually. But it's up to the player to decide if that's enough of a reason to not take an archetype.
Well, I think you nailed it: the shamans are best for summoning, not for wild shaping. Summoning is strong, but I find it tedious and it slows the game down.
Losing Wild Shape until level 6 and then basically having no further benefit to Wild Shape from Druid levels is pretty disappointing, both mechanically and thematically. The upside, at least, is you can use the Shapeshifting Hunter feat to just switch entirely to Ranger levels...
Wildshaping into lion form at a +2 to the druid level should not be under-estimated mpl. Every druid I've ever played had a single wild shape form they took for combat, so getting that +2 is a huge benefit that is offset by a -2 to wildshape form for non-feline shapes, but my druid almost always uses non-feline shapes for scouting anyway, so it has been a very minor cost for a huge gain in her primary form.
To me the biggest issue with lion shaman is the same as any archetype, and that is that you lose certain abilities to gain the archetype abilities and sometimes you lose more than you gain. Losing "venom immunity" and "a thousand faces" is a pretty big deal actually. But it's up to the player to decide if that's enough of a reason to not take an archetype.
Those seem pretty useless compared to early access to pounce. :)
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Well, I think you nailed it: the shamans are best for summoning, not for wild shaping. Summoning is strong, but I find it tedious and it slows the game down.
I vehemently disagree that a Lion Shaman is underpowered. It is at least on a par with a regular druid except at specifically L4.
Although it is NOT rules as written many GMs will allow you to wild shape into a feline with templates applied. This makes the Lion Shaman even more powerful since it reduces the one weakness (reduced wild shape) and opens up some interesting possibilities.
The summoning is very powerful. Throwing 3 feats into it (augmented summoning, Superior Summoning) makes it insane.
It is true that doing this slows down the game. What I tend to do is to only do this when the situation warrants it. Ie, only when things are going seriously south. And make sure that you have your summoned creatures all statted out ahead of time.
If you're playing a stealth character make sure that you take a trait to make stealth a class skill. If you're hoping to sneak into places disguised as a house cat then getting bluff or disguise as a class skill may even be worth it (depending on GM)
One facet of playing a Lion Shaman is that you will virtually always be changing into felines of some sort or other. This means that it is practical to buy several kinds of armour (Dire tiger generally although maybe house cat if you're scouting that way). When time allows, you wild shape and THEN have your friends put on the armour.
Those seem pretty useless compared to early access to pounce. :)
Sure, and that's why lion shaman is a viable choice.
But technically "a thousand faces" is replaced by "totemic summons" and "venom immunity" is replaced by a fairly lame bonus feat, and in the case of "venom immunity" I think the lion shaman loses out. Losing "a thousand faces" may not seem like much until you are in a very high level campaign and need it.
But that was my point Samrin, there are trade-offs, you gain some, you lose some, with ANY archetype. You have to decide if "early access to pounce" and other gains is enough to offset the other losses.
Unless you are lucky enough to find an archetype where every substitution in the archetype is a plus. I haven't found that archetype yet.
Wildshaping into lion form at a +2 to the druid level should not be under-estimated mpl.
Why?
At level 4, a normal Druid can turn into a medium sized cat, like the Cheetah, Jaguar, or Leopard. A Lion Shaman can change into...oh right, nothing.
At level 6, a normal Druid can turn into a Large sized cat, like the Dire Lion or Dire Tiger, and through beast shape 2 pick up Grab, Pounce, Trip, etc. A Lion Shaman counts as 8th level so they can change into a Huge cat! Oh, but there aren't any--awesome. So they can also turn into a Large one like a Dire Lion or Tiger and get the same abilities, because big cats lack the abilities added by the Beast Shape 3 list.
From then on, the normal Druid and Lion Shaman can shift into the exact same cats for the exact same benefits, but the normal Druid can also shift into anything else better and faster and than the Lion Shaman. Hooray for the Shaman, I guess?
Yeah, that's why I am saying don't be a shaman unless you want to summon as your main gimmick (and that's not going to be useful long term, of course, because the best feline summons is Summon Nature's Ally VI at level 11--which summons a CR 8).
Every druid I've ever played had a single wild shape form they took for combat, so getting that +2 is a huge benefit that is offset by a -2 to wildshape form for non-feline shapes, but my druid almost always uses non-feline shapes for scouting anyway, so it has been a very minor cost for a huge gain in her primary form.
I think picking a form that Beastshape II fully emulates as your go to combat form for the entirely of your Druid career is a foolish choice. I can see taking a Huge form or a smaller one that utilizes the special abilities you get from Beastshape III and ignoring the elemental and plant shapes, but settling on a Large creature with no extra special abilities seems pointless.
To me the biggest issue with lion shaman is the same as any archetype, and that is that you lose certain abilities to gain the archetype abilities and sometimes you lose more than you gain. Losing "venom immunity" and "a thousand faces" is a pretty big deal actually. But it's up to the player to decide if that's enough of a reason to not take an archetype.
You think losing Venom Immunity and Thousand Faces is worse than penalizing all your wildshaping (since the bonus doesn't actually give you anything you didn't already have)?
Those seem pretty useless compared to early access to pounce. :)
You don't get early access to Pounce. You get Pounce at level 6, exactly when the base Druid gets it.
that's not going to be useful long term, of course, because the best feline summons is Summon Nature's Ally VI at level 11--which summons a CR 8
Summoning 1d4+1 Dire Tigers as a standard action can still be useful at level 15.
Is there some sort of ruling that says a shaman druid can't wild shape until level 6? The actually ability itself just says "At 6th level, a lion shaman’s wild shape ability functions at her druid level – 2. If she takes on the form of a feline, she instead uses her druid level + 2.". That means, to me, that the druid's wild shape is the same for a lion shaman and a "plain driud" until level 6, when the change takes place. Has there been an errata or a FAQ that says lion shaman's can't wild shape AT ALL until level 6?
This wasn't an issue for my druid since my druid was a 3.5 druid until level 7 when we converted to Pathfinder.
Once the lion shaman can shift at a +2 that means they can wild shape more often and they can gain the benefits of "beast shape III" two levels earlier. It is true that from level 8 onwards there aren't a lot of benefits from this.
Whether "penalizing" your wild shaping is an issue or not has everything to do with how you utilize wild shape. For my own lion shaman druid the "penalties" you refer to have not been an issue, but that's in large part because my druid isn't a wild shape based druid.
That means, to me, that the druid's wild shape is the same for a lion shaman and a "plain driud" until level 6, when the change takes place.
Not sure if it's ever been officially clarified, but your interpretation implies that a lion shaman can turn into a wolf for five hours a day at level 5, but only four hours a day at level 6. This seems unlikely to be RAI.
that's not going to be useful long term, of course, because the best feline summons is Summon Nature's Ally VI at level 11--which summons a CR 8Summoning 1d4+1 Dire Tigers as a standard action can still be useful at level 15.
Even 5 Dire Tigers only bump the effective CR of the bundle to 12. Besides, looking through a random assortment of CR 15 enemies, I don't think a Dire Tiger could be a reasonable threat to any of them. Either it can't hit them or can't damage them, or would die/be CC'd nigh instantaneously from area effects. I think I'd much rather have used my action to cast a level 8 spell.
Is there some sort of ruling that says a shaman druid can't wild shape until level 6?
The author of the Shamans talking about the archetype.
Once the lion shaman can shift at a +2 that means they can wild shape more often and they can gain the benefits of "beast shape III" two levels earlier. It is true that from level 8 onwards there aren't a lot of benefits from this.
No, from 6th level on this does nothing because there are no increased benefits from using Beast Shape III over II as there are no Huge felines or felines with abilities not covered under II.
Whether "penalizing" your wild shaping is an issue or not has everything to do with how you utilize wild shape. For my own lion shaman druid the "penalties" you refer to have not been an issue, but that's in large part because my druid isn't a wild shape based druid.
Hence my point that Shamans are ok for summoning, but not wild shaping. If you're not a wild shaping druid, the shaman is less pointless (still weaker, but "less weaker" and at a higher level--they're still ok until their highest level special summons phases out of usefulness).
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That means, to me, that the druid's wild shape is the same for a lion shaman and a "plain driud" until level 6, when the change takes place.Not sure if it's ever been officially clarified, but your interpretation implies that a lion shaman can turn into a wolf for five hours a day at level 5, but only four hours a day at level 6. This seems unlikely to be RAI.
The author of the original Shaman classes has stated several times that his intention was for the Shaman to NOT get Wild Shape until Level 6. At the time that he wrote the description he thought the wording unambiguously stated that although he is now of the opinion that his wording is unintentionally ambiguous.
His opinion does NOT have official status so its not clear what RAW are. But RAI are utterly crystal clear.
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If you're not a wild shaping druid, the shaman is less pointless (still weaker, but "less weaker" and at a higher level--they're still ok until their highest level special summons phases out of usefulness).
Given that Lion Shamans can summon multiple numbers of Augmented Advanced Giant Dire Tigers in the vast majority of campaigns that summoning ability will ALWAYS have great value.
Sure, they lose a bit of wild shaping flexibility. But its not as bad as you say.
1) You do get rake early (from Beast Shape 3). This is valuable.
2) You get one more wild shape a day (albeit at least 2 must be to felines)
3) After about L10 or so it is relatively rare that the -2 on druid level seriously affects your other wild shapes anyway. Lots of the time you're going to be assuming exactly the same form as your pure druid counterpart.
And the beast totem transformation itself is hardly of no value. Even at high levels scent and extra speed are useful from time to time. Even high level druids often find it convenient to be in human form :-).
Given that Lion Shamans can summon multiple numbers of Augmented Advanced Giant Dire Tigers in the vast majority of campaigns that summoning ability will ALWAYS have great value.
Whoah whoah whoah. Where are you getting augmented advanced giant dire tigers from? I'm not seeing those templates anywhere on the Summon Nature's Ally lists.
1) You do get rake early (from Beast Shape 3). This is valuable.
Ok, good catch. Slightly useful for two levels. Great.
2) You get one more wild shape a day (albeit at least 2 must be to felines)
Wild Shape lasts so long and you get so much of it--seems kind of unnecessary to get two more.
3) After about L10 or so it is relatively rare that the -2 on druid level seriously affects your other wild shapes anyway. Lots of the time you're going to be assuming exactly the same form as your pure druid counterpart.
Only if you want to break theme, which means that the shamans are thematically bad, too, in addition to their already mechanical crapiness.
And the beast totem transformation itself is hardly of no value. Even at high levels scent and extra speed are useful from time to time. Even high level druids often find it convenient to be in human form :-).
Eh. I don't know about that, but it's not beyond the realm of possibility.
Eh, reading through it, this class might be way too complicated for what I'm wanting anyway. It looks like a bookkeeping nightmare.
Eh, reading through it, this class might be way too complicated for what I'm wanting anyway. It looks like a bookkeeping nightmare.
Well what are you looking for? We can probably offer suggestions...
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Personally i find the Eagle Shaman Druid the best druid archetype. Unlike the other shaman archetypes the Eagle shaman can summon some thing at every tier of Summon Nature's Ally. If done right u can summon d3+2 celestial / fiendish giant advanced template Rocs. Also having a Roc as an animal companion is awesome especially if u go with the fly speed option from totem transformation to qualify for flyby attack and Wingover from the monster feats to soar with it in combat.
Eh, reading through it, this class might be way too complicated for what I'm wanting anyway. It looks like a bookkeeping nightmare.Well what are you looking for? We can probably offer suggestions...
Generally? I like Rogue type characters. Specifically, assassins. PF doesn't offer much. The Ninja is kinda cool, but I hate managing daily resources (one of the main draws to 4e for me was encounter based resources). The regular rogue looks pretty underpowered. The monk is a mess. I'm really not sure what will fit.
Basically, all Paizo PF (no 3rd party or 3.5) is allowed except races. Core rulebook races only. Anything goes after that.
I wish he allowed 3.5 material. The Swordsage is pretty much exactly what I would want.
I'm desperate here, lol. It has been 5 years since I played a 3.5 game, and I'm spoiled by the character builder. :P
You may enjoy playing a Ranger, Fighter, or Barbarian (with ranks in stealth) then at 6th level you can switch over the the Shadowdander prestige class to further enhance your assassiny side (or stick with the original class).
There's also the Vivisectionist. They have an assassin feel about them, and they're the biggest reason Rogues in Pathfinder are essentially obsolete.
Given that Lion Shamans can summon multiple numbers of Augmented Advanced Giant Dire Tigers in the vast majority of campaigns that summoning ability will ALWAYS have great value.Whoah whoah whoah. Where are you getting augmented advanced giant dire tigers from? I'm not seeing those templates anywhere on the Summon Nature's Ally lists.
Lion Shaman's Totemic Summons references the Bear Shaman's Totemic Summons. Under the Bear shaman it says you can reduce the level of your SNA spell by 1 when summoning your totem animal by applying the young template. You can also apply the Giant or Advanced template by increasing the level of SNA by 1, or both by increasing SNA by 2. So you could summon advanced Dire Tigers with a SNA VII spell, or Giant Advanced Dire Tigers with an SNA VIII.
There's also the Vivisectionist. They have an assassin feel about them, and they're the biggest reason Rogues in Pathfinder are essentially obsolete.
Eh, the alchemist doesn't interest me much, either.
I think I might just end up going Ninja.
That means, to me, that the druid's wild shape is the same for a lion shaman and a "plain driud" until level 6, when the change takes place.Not sure if it's ever been officially clarified, but your interpretation implies that a lion shaman can turn into a wolf for five hours a day at level 5, but only four hours a day at level 6. This seems unlikely to be RAI.The author of the original Shaman classes has stated several times that his intention was for the Shaman to NOT get Wild Shape until Level 6. At the time that he wrote the description he thought the wording unambiguously stated that although he is now of the opinion that his wording is unintentionally ambiguous.
His opinion does NOT have official status so its not clear what RAW are. But RAI are utterly crystal clear.
It's unbelievably stupid RAI then.
"Hey! Let's create a druid archetype totally focused on optimizing around one type of animal, but instead of making that type of animal wildshaping easier and earlier (which would make sense) let's cripple wildshaping altogether!
What an idiotic "intent."
bah... I didn't see the animal shaman as making a single wildshape easier, I saw it as a quick 2 level dip with a lil divine buff casting for a claw/claw/bite/rake then jump to Ninja/rogue/monk(sans flurry) and chew face.
Yeah, maybe so, but I'm not much into level dipping for claw/claw/bite/rake and ninja/monk/rogue jumping for (sans flurry) chew face...
Not that there's anything wrong with that.
Lion Shaman's Totemic Summons references the Bear Shaman's Totemic Summons. Under the Bear shaman it says you can reduce the level of your SNA spell by 1 when summoning your totem animal by applying the young template. You can also apply the Giant or Advanced template by increasing the level of SNA by 1, or both by increasing SNA by 2. So you could summon advanced Dire Tigers with a SNA VII spell, or Giant Advanced Dire Tigers with an SNA VIII.
That's not bad then. The Shamans are actually pretty good, then, for a summon focused character. I never actually read the bear--never thought the "otherwise functions as" actually had a function.
They still suck for wildshapers, though, and let's face it--like 90% of Druids are made to Wildshape.
It's unbelievably stupid RAI then.
"Hey! Let's create a druid archetype totally focused on optimizing around one type of animal, but instead of making that type of animal wildshaping easier and earlier (which would make sense) let's cripple wildshaping altogether!
What an idiotic "intent."
Yeah, it's a really bad archetype. That pretty much describes half the archetypes out there. There are lots of subpar choices in Pathfinder--why are you so surprised?
Yeah, it's a really bad archetype. That pretty much describes half the archetypes out there. There are lots of subpar choices in Pathfinder--why are you so surprised?
Sure there are a lot of "bad archetypes". But this is just asinine. What sort of game designer would take the whole concept of a druid focused on a single type of animal and conclude that wild shaping into that animal form would take two more levels than a "plain druid?"
This goes beyond "bad archetype" and smashes right through "ridiculous" and lands squarely and solidly in the "idiotic" realm.
If there are any balance issues there should have been other ways to deal with them. Any concept of a "lion shaman" druid that doesn't end up with "can wildshape into a lion earlier and easier than other druids" is just plain stupid.
Oh, and the template thing. I believe it is RAW to be able to use templates.
Is there a specific contradictory ruling on THIS TOO from the game design genius who came up with the archetype?
It seems like you've ditched Druid altogether, but I really like this one build: A Samsaran Menhir Savant, Lion Shaman Druid, with a level dip into Sohei monk (for increased AC and guaranteed action in the surprise round) and a level dip into Crossblooded - Primal Elemental (Electric)/Red Dragonic Sorcerer (for +1 damage per die for any electric or fire spell, and very minor spell access for like, mage armor, whatever). The Samsaran racial ability gets her Scorching Ray, Animate Dead, Lightning Bolt, Restoration, and Raise Dead on her spell list. She's mostly a caster blaster, but she's pretty good at the summoning. Rarely wildshapes, mostly just to the smallest available flying creature. Like most caster toons I make, she smokes Aether for the CL bumps, animates adult black dragons to ride around on (transport only, really). May be way to complicated for a newb to PF, but not that complicated, really.
I'm not sure how much value all of the multi-class recommendations with a level dip here and a level dip there are to the OPs original reqeust since he's starting at level 1.
Sure, I suppose he could be planning out a level 20 character who can summon dragons for mounts, but I could be wrong.
Samrin, I would check with your GM to see how they interpret wild shape for shaman archetypes and whether they accept templates for summoned cats. If the GM allows wildshape normally at level 4 to be replaced at level 6 with the archetype changes and allow templates, (both of which I believe are valid ways to interpret RAW regardless what the supposed RAI is) then the lion archetype is probably a fine choice for your original goals.
No, templates on summoned creatures is totally legit it turns out. Templates on Wild Shaping, however, is not. So the Lion Shaman can summon awesome tigers, but gets screwed on Wild Shape since normal druids can shift into cats that are just as awesome.
A large tiger with the "giant" template applied is still an animal.
Wildshape says you can change into an animal.
At level 8 (level 6 for a lion shaman) you can change into a "huge animal".
A lion (or tiger) with the giant template is a "huge animal".
I don't see the problem.
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Yeah, it's a really bad archetype. That pretty much describes half the archetypes out there. There are lots of subpar choices in Pathfinder--why are you so surprised?Sure there are a lot of "bad archetypes". But this is just asinine. What sort of game designer would take the whole concept of a druid focused on a single type of animal and conclude that wild shaping into that animal form would take two more levels than a "plain druid?"
You get to take on interesting aspects of the Felines at Level 2. Not a full wild shape but its not at all bad.
It would be too good to be able to wild shape at Level 2 so this really isn't a bad compromise.
I think that what they maybe should have done would be to allow wild shape into felines at Level 4. But the Shaman archetypes are already strong enough, to do that would mean losing something elsewhere.
As to wild shaping into templated creatures, the problem is that there is absolutely no way to know what templates with what creatures actually exist in world. And don't forget that the Druid needs to know what it is he is shifting into. I don't know if it was PFS only or a general ruling but, at least for PFS, the only animals one can shift into are the ones in the bestiaries. NOT templated versions of same.
As a further aside, the Saurian Shaman is definitely broken in terms of how powerful it is. Given that "dinosaur" in Pathfinder includes swimming and flying creatures of a massive range of sizes the set that can be wild shaped into and summoned is just insane. And dinosaurs are nearly always better then their equivalent non dinosaurs to boot.
I'm not sure how much value all of the multi-class recommendations with a level dip here and a level dip there are to the OPs original reqeust since he's starting at level 1.
Sure, I suppose he could be planning out a level 20 character who can summon dragons for mounts, but I could be wrong.
Agreed, it won't help at level 1. But it's a build. Pick up those two levels a couple levels in. And with this build, and a karma bead strand, you can be a level 1 monk, level 1 sorcerer, and level 7 druid (character level of 9), and be able to make an adult black dragon fast zombie. But either way: A catfolk ninja scout is fun, too.
And I second the Saurian shaman's awesomeness. I may take the build, and change it back to that. It's cooler, anyway.
Yeah, it's a really bad archetype. That pretty much describes half the archetypes out there. There are lots of subpar choices in Pathfinder--why are you so surprised?Sure there are a lot of "bad archetypes". But this is just asinine. What sort of game designer would take the whole concept of a druid focused on a single type of animal and conclude that wild shaping into that animal form would take two more levels than a "plain druid?"You get to take on interesting aspects of the Felines at Level 2. Not a full wild shape but its not at all bad.
It would be too good to be able to wild shape at Level 2 so this really isn't a bad compromise.
I think that what they maybe should have done would be to allow wild shape into felines at Level 4. But the Shaman archetypes are already strong enough, to do that would mean losing something elsewhere.
As to wild shaping into templated creatures, the problem is that there is absolutely no way to know what templates with what creatures actually exist in world. And don't forget that the Druid needs to know what it is he is shifting into. I don't know if it was PFS only or a general ruling but, at least for PFS, the only animals one can shift into are the ones in the bestiaries. NOT templated versions of same.
As a further aside, the Saurian Shaman is definitely broken in terms of how powerful it is. Given that "dinosaur" in Pathfinder includes swimming and flying creatures of a massive range of sizes the set that can be wild shaped into and summoned is just insane. And dinosaurs are nearly always better then their equivalent non dinosaurs to boot.
Wildshaping at level 2 would not be necessary to "fix" the problem with wildshaping. Just allowing normal wildshaping until level 6, as you can clearly interpret the RAW to allow, would go a long way.
I honestly don't even have a problem with the idea that a druid can wildshape into a giant version of an animal even if there is no giant version of the animal in the world. So what? It's not game unbalancing, it's a huge animal. Druids are magical beings who can reshape their bodies into animals. They can reshape into a rhinoceros. Why can't they reshape into a tiger the size of a rhino? It's in their description that they can wildshape into huge animals, and the rules provide perfectly balanced attributes for a huge tiger or lion.
Again, what the heck is the problem?
Geez, I constantly hear on these boards "there's no wrong way to play the game so long as your having fun!" Until someone decides they get to define what is acceptable.
I see absolutely no reason RAW would restrict a PLAIN DRUID, much less a lion shaman druid, from wildshaping into a huge lion. It's a huge animal. There's a template in the rule book to create them in a game balanced manner. The lion shaman just gets to do it two levels earlier. Big whooping deal.
What the heck is the problem then?
I see a lot of suggestions for multiclassing. I basically loathe MC'ing in 3.x (too huge of an opportunity cost). I don't think I'll be doing it...at all. I may go with a PrC at some point, but not unless I can finish the character as that. If I can't play a class for 20 levels, it isn't worth playing to me.
Maybe I should change this to a help me with my Ninja build. :) Same creation rules.
So reading this, a L9 Wolf Shaman with the feat Powerful Shape can only be a large Dire Wolf that is considered huge?
A large tiger with the "giant" template applied is still an animal.
Wildshape says you can change into an animal.
At level 8 (level 6 for a lion shaman) you can change into a "huge animal".
A lion (or tiger) with the giant template is a "huge animal".
I don't see the problem.
Wild Shape mimics the Beast Shape line of spells, which are polymorph effects.
"Unless otherwise noted, polymorph spells cannot be used to change into specific individuals. Although many of the fine details can be controlled, your appearance is always that of a generic member of that creature's type. Polymorph spells cannot be used to assume the form of a creature with a template or an advanced version of a creature." (emphasis mine)
So reading this, a L9 Wolf Shaman with the feat Powerful Shape can only be a large Dire Wolf that is considered huge?
There are no huge canines, so yes, you could only be Large. And that feat only lets you count as Huge for "CMB, CMD, carrying capacity, and any size-based special attacks you use or that are used against you," so it doesn't buff your stats or natural weapon damage in any way.
Again, if you want to wild shape, don't be a X Shaman unless you like dinosaurs (the Saurian shaman is the only one not gimped since wild shape is only barely penalized at higher levels but they still get all the summoning goodness).
Maybe I should change this to a help me with my Ninja build. :) Same creation rules.
Try the Ninja Guide or the "Classic Ninja" Build. Note, however, that while Ninja are definitely better than Rogues, I still think they're one of the weaker classes in Pathfinder. And it bugs me that there's no "extra ninja trick" feat.
mpl, well I guess that settles the RAW question.
I'd still allow it.
mpl, well I guess that settles the RAW question.
I'd still allow it.
In my experience, outside of PFS, GMs either pity Shaman characters in their games and allow Giant/Young templates to work with Wild Shape, or take pity on potential Shaman players and warn them ahead of time that Shamans suck (for wildshaping) and they should maybe reconsider.
Well, wildshaping isn't that big a part of my own lion shaman druid's concept, so it hasn't been an issue. And having converted to Pathfinder at level 7 the level 4 vs level 6 thing never came up.
I still like the flavor of the lion shaman and I really like the totemic summoning, so I don't think the wildshape issue is a problem for my character, but for other druids I think you're right mpl, I think a warning is in order.
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mpl, well I guess that settles the RAW question.
I'd still allow it.
In a private game I'd disallow Saurian Shamans and probably would not allow free wild shaping into templatized animals. Instead, I'd go with a compromise where a Shaman could wild shape into templatized forms that they'd actually seen.
Druids and Shamans are already powerful enough. They really don't need house rules to make them more powerful,
I also don't think its a huge deal one way or the other. Hardly game breaking. But I'd see no reason to alter the rules as written,
A large tiger with the "giant" template applied is still an animal.
Wildshape says you can change into an animal.
At level 8 (level 6 for a lion shaman) you can change into a "huge animal".
A lion (or tiger) with the giant template is a "huge animal".
I don't see the problem.
Wild Shape mimics the Beast Shape line of spells, which are polymorph effects.
"Unless otherwise noted, polymorph spells cannot be used to change into specific individuals. Although many of the fine details can be controlled, your appearance is always that of a generic member of that creature's type. Polymorph spells cannot be used to assume the form of a creature with a template or an advanced version of a creature." (emphasis mine)
So reading this, a L9 Wolf Shaman with the feat Powerful Shape can only be a large Dire Wolf that is considered huge?There are no huge canines, so yes, you could only be Large. And that feat only lets you count as Huge for "CMB, CMD, carrying capacity, and any size-based special attacks you use or that are used against you," so it doesn't buff your stats or natural weapon damage in any way.
Again, if you want to wild shape, don't be a X Shaman unless you like dinosaurs (the Saurian shaman is the only one not gimped since wild shape is only barely penalized at higher levels but they still get all the summoning goodness).
Maybe I should change this to a help me with my Ninja build. :) Same creation rules.Try the Ninja Guide or the "Classic Ninja" Build. Note, however, that while Ninja are definitely better than Rogues, I still think they're one of the weaker classes in Pathfinder. And it bugs me that there's no "extra ninja trick" feat.
That's my biggest issue here. No class should be one of the "weaker" classes. It's the reason I've been worried about going back to 3.x. Is there any class you could suggest that doesn't require a ton of book keeping but fits my concept?