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"This silver headband grants a +3 competence bonus on the wearer's Charisma-based checks. "
It doesn't specifically say Charisma-based ABILITY checks, so does that mean it applies to ANY Charisma-based check?
In other words, does this item add its bonus to Concentration checks for certain spellcasters that rely on Charisma for their spells (such as bards, oracles, and sorcerers) since that is indeed a Charisma-based check?
What about Charisma-based skills such as Bluff, Disguise, Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Use Magic Device? Does it apply to those as well?
If so, it's a nice item for its price, especially since it doesn't use up the headband slot anymore.
Charisma (Cha)
Charisma measures a character's personality, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and appearance. It is the most important ability for paladins, sorcerers, and bards. It is also important for clerics, since it affects their ability to channel energy. For undead creatures, Charisma is a measure of their unnatural “lifeforce.” Every creature has a Charisma score. A character with a Charisma score of 0 is not able to exert himself in any way and is unconscious.You apply your character's Charisma modifier to:
Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Perform, and Use Magic Device checks.
Checks that represent attempts to influence others.
Channel energy DCs for clerics and paladins attempting to harm undead foes.
Bards, paladins, and sorcerers gain a number of bonus spells based on their Charisma scores. The minimum Charisma score needed to cast a bard, paladin, or sorcerer spell is 10 + the spell's level.
To cast a spell, you must concentrate. If something interrupts your concentration while you're casting, you must make a concentration check or lose the spell. When you make a concentration check, you roll d20 and add your caster level and the ability score modifier used to determine bonus spells of the same type. Clerics, druids, and rangers add their Wisdom modifier. Bards, paladins, and sorcerers add their Charisma modifier. Finally, wizards add their Intelligence modifier. The more distracting the interruption and the higher the level of the spell you are trying to cast, the higher the DC (see Table: Concentration Check DCs). If you fail the check, you lose the spell just as if you had cast it to no effect.
I included both quotes mostly for completeness sake and in case I missed something that someone else might be able to see.
I agree with Shar Tahl that RAI is probably that it only applies to skill checks. With that RAI in mind, I can find a very pedantic reading of RAW which makes that work. With a hyper-pedantic reading of RAW, concentration checks aren't exactly Charisma checks for CHA casters. They are concentration checks which allow the caster to his/her Charisma modifier to the roll. This is further reinforced by the fact that "check" and "concentration check" are two different entries in the "Getting Started" section. I will grant that this is a very picky reading of RAW and that Ravingdork could very well be correct in his reading of the RAW. I'm just saying that the RAI that I see is supportable by the RAW, if you want it to be.
Anyone else care to weigh in?
Mmm.. I'd say no, it just doesn't make any sense to add to concentration checks.
It *definitely* is meant to add to skill checks (and Cha ability checks).
In 3.5, it would also have added to the Charisma check to Turn Undead.
The last is the closest to the current concentration checks in form (roll is influenced by level and Cha), but is an outward, persuasive effort, where the cleric is attempting to 'exert himself' in some way.
Concentration checks are nothing at all like that. I would agree with the specific point that "Concentration check" has a separate entry than "check", which is typically an abbreviation for "ability checks and skill checks", at least when associated with an ability score.
It also adds to pure Charisma checks, which is especially nice for Planar Binding folks.
"Concentration" checks, however, are not charisma-based. They are caster level-based. You might add charisma as a bonus, but that's not the basis for your check.
By that logic one could argue that skills are "rank based" checks, and wouldn't get the bonus for similar reasons.
The item was created in v3.5 and the game designers then clarified that it applied to any d20 roll that used your Charisma. I see no reason for that to change.
In 3.5 it even applied to your roll to determine how many hit dice of undead you turned as a cleric or palladin.
That and wild empathy.
Personally, I would use it for ability checks, skill checks, other checks that mimic skill checks (such as wild empathy), and thats about it. Otherwise it seems a little unfair that there isn't a similar intelligence and wisdom check boosting item of similar design.
Now, if those items existed...then I wouldn't see a problem with it also applying to concentration.
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The term "Charisma-based checks" is not precisely defined. My interpretation is that it means any roll labeled as a "check" in the rules (which includes skill, ability, and concentration) that is modified by CHA of the wearer of the circlet. This would also include checks that were altered to apply a CHA modifier instead of INT (or whatever), if such a feat existed.
The 3.5 FAQ did have an entry for the circlet, which I think supports this position.
The circlet of persuasion (DMG 252) grants a +3 competence bonus on Charisma-based checks. Does this bonus apply on turn/rebuke undead checks?
Yes—anything described as a Charisma check (as well as all Charisma-based skill checks) would gain this bonus.
Concentration was a CON based skill check in 3.5, so this wasn't relevant then. Now that it can be CHA based, I don't see why it would be ruled out if turn/rebuke checks were allowed before.
If someone actually used the circlet for this purpose in my games, I'd also allow the creation of similar WIS and INT items to keep it fair.
Also, if a DM ruled that this did not apply to concentration checks, I'd have no problems with that.
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How's this?
Kiira: These smooth hemispherical precious stones are known by their elven name, which means "lore gem." The kiira is worn on the forehead (it affixes itself when placed there and can be easily removed by the wearer) and counts as a hat for determining what items can be worn together. It allows the wearer to better focus her mind and memory, allowing her to better remember information. A kiira grants its wearer a +3 competence bonus on the wearer's Intelligence-based checks.
Mitre of Divine Station: These large, ostentatious hats come in many forms, but they are always regal looking. A mithre of divine station is often used by priests and divine spellcasters in order to better commune with their gods. Though normal people can get use out of them as well, the use of a mitre of divine station by secular groups is an affront to the devout. A mitre of divine station grants its wearer a +3 competence bonus on the wearer's Wisdom-based checks.
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I don't see how its pedantic to read charisma based checks as charisma based checks. If it had meant skillchecks it quite easily could have said so. So yes, for a sorcerer it adds to your concentration checks. Its not overpowered in the least, as it occupies the same slot as the Headband of Alluring Charisma, which adds 1, 2 , or 3 points to concentration checks anyway in addition to increasing spell slots available as well as spell DC's.
If someone actually used the circlet for this purpose in my games, I'd also allow the creation of similar WIS and INT items to keep it fair.
Also, if a DM ruled that this did not apply to concentration checks, I'd have no problems with that.
Probably this sums up most of what I'd say. Probably.
My only issue is that with PFRPG Paizo went out of their way to make Concentration checks successful less often, for balance purposes. As such I might be tempted to not have this item futz with that. I might be tempted to rule it doesn't work but happily allow the usual skill-boosting pricing items to be crafted for Concentration. So 2500gp gets you +5, consumes a slot, and does nothing else. But that's purely when my sense of balance-intent kicks in. I probably wouldn't bother.
My only issue is that with PFRPG Paizo went out of their way to make Concentration checks successful less often, for balance purposes. As such I might be tempted to not have this item futz with that. I might be tempted to rule it doesn't work but happily allow the usual skill-boosting pricing items to be crafted for Concentration. So 2500gp gets you +5, consumes a slot, and does nothing else. But that's purely when my sense of balance-intent kicks in. I probably wouldn't bother.
Yeah, this does seem like an unintended consequence of changing the concentration skill, which is why I can totally understand if DMs apply rule 0 and disallow it affecting concentration.
...it occupies the same slot as the Headband of Alluring Charisma, which adds 1, 2 , or 3 points to concentration checks anyway in addition to increasing spell slots available as well as spell DC's.
That's not true at all. The headband takes up the headband slot while the circlet takes up the head slot. :D
Look at the Pathfinder rules. There are more slots then there used to be.
If someone actually used the circlet for this purpose in my games, I'd also allow the creation of similar WIS and INT items to keep it fair.
I think it should work for charisma casters, and that there shouldn't be an int/wis equivalent.
There's a reason why (optimally/mechanically) everyone who can dumps charisma, and int/wis are purely second-string as dump stats to it.
Having to put most of your stat points in the most useless stat in the game is already enough of a handicap on charisma casters; it's not the end of the world if something pushes them a fraction of a point towards being almost as good as the int/wis casters.
...it occupies the same slot as the Headband of Alluring Charisma, which adds 1, 2 , or 3 points to concentration checks anyway in addition to increasing spell slots available as well as spell DC's.That's not true at all. The headband takes up the headband slot while the circlet takes up the head slot. :D
Look at the Pathfinder rules. There are more slots then there used to be.
grumbles... the rules changes pop out of nowhere when you least expect them... why was THIS of all things changed?
grumbles... the rules changes pop out of nowhere when you least expect them... why was THIS of all things changed?
I assume that was fallout from sticking all the mental-stat-bump items into the head slot and not wanting stuff like the Circlet of Persuasion to become totally useless.
Although if that's the case, they probably should have tossed the Phylacteries into the headband slot, too. Who's going to wear a Phylactery of Faithfulness instead of bumping wis?
grumbles... the rules changes pop out of nowhere when you least expect them... why was THIS of all things changed?...it occupies the same slot as the Headband of Alluring Charisma, which adds 1, 2 , or 3 points to concentration checks anyway in addition to increasing spell slots available as well as spell DC's.That's not true at all. The headband takes up the headband slot while the circlet takes up the head slot. :D
Look at the Pathfinder rules. There are more slots then there used to be.
Make no mistake, it is a positive change. In v3.5, there just wasn't anything that could ever compete with the ability increasing items. Now they don't have to.
The item is underpriced for what it does, even if you do not allow it to affect concentration checks. It is priced the same as a +3 to 3.67 skills. It affects charisma checks (used for enchantments and high level summons) and 7 different skill checks. Now, you most likely wont be focusing on all of those skils, but based off this alone, I would not increase its power to affect concentration as well, which has no magical way to increase other than boosting the casting stat.
I agree that it is worded poorly all arround.
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I like the poor wording.
I like the underpricing.
I like the fact that it's a very powerful item.
I don't like giving it even more functions than it already has.
I don't like ameliorating the CL check weakness of all casters with an underpriced item.
Now, if the circlet of persuasion were 2x or even 3x the normal expense, and/or it took up the 'headband' slot in place of your stat-increase item, I could see that additional functionality coming in just fine.
The item is underpriced for what it does, even if you do not allow it to affect concentration checks. It is priced the same as a +3 to 3.67 skills. It affects charisma checks (used for enchantments and high level summons) and 7 different skill checks. Now, you most likely wont be focusing on all of those skils, but based off this alone, I would not increase its power to affect concentration as well, which has no magical way to increase other than boosting the casting stat.
I agree that it is worded poorly all arround.
I agree that it is a little bit underpriced.
Yes.
It gives a +3 on all charisma-based checks.
For a charisma caster, concentration is a cha-based check.
What about spells that have CMB or ability based checks, like Hydraulic Push and its cousins?
It does seem pretty underpriced. Without even adding in the multiple different abilities rule, creating an item that grants +3 to every Charisma-based skill check is 900 gp per skill. The price of a CoP is enough for five of the seven Charisma-based skills. Add in non-skill checks using Charisma and it's a sweet enough deal that I can't see a reason not to get one for every character that uses Charisma for any kind of check on a semi-regular basis.. And it even stacks with enhancement bonuses to Charisma.
Sure. It's a good item. It's like +6 CHA for checks, but not for bonus spells, spell DC, feats, etc. Note that it takes the same slot as a straight CHA item does, too, so in PFS you won't be able to double up unless you pay the hefty premium.
Actually it does not.
It takes up the head slot, while the headband uses the headband slot.
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For a charisma caster, concentration is a cha-based check.
Do you have an example of this? Because in the rules Concentration is always listed as a Concentration check and never listed as a Blah-Based check.
In the rules, every reference to a "Blah Based Check" is spelled out as "Blah Based Skill Check or Ability Check."
Concentration is a different kind of check than a Skill check or an Ability check, so it isn't a Charisma based check.
It does seem pretty underpriced. Without even adding in the multiple different abilities rule, creating an item that grants +3 to every Charisma-based skill check is 900 gp per skill. The price of a CoP is enough for five of the seven Charisma-based skills. Add in non-skill checks using Charisma and it's a sweet enough deal that I can't see a reason not to get one for every character that uses Charisma for any kind of check on a semi-regular basis.. And it even stacks with enhancement bonuses to Charisma.There is an excellent reason for most characters (especially charisma based spellcasters) not to get this item -- it fills the headband slot. An actual increase to charisma (via a headband of alluring charisma) would be better than a skill boost for such characters any day. Those bonuses would not stack for item slot reasons rather than bonus type reasons.
(waits for David to finish reading the thread)
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examples of the above? That might help me see what you mean.
Core p11: "Check: A check is a d20 roll which may or may not be modified by another value. The most common types are attack rolls, skill checks, ability checks, and saving throws.
Concentration Check: When a creature is casting a spell, but is disrupted during the casting, he must make a concentration check or fail to cast the spell (see Chapter 9)."This means that a Concentration check can not be a Skill Check nor an Ability check.
Core p15: "While a character rarely rolls an ability check (using just an ability score)"
This means that all abilities checks are checks that only add the ability modifier to the score, which a Concentration does not since there are things that are also added to Concentration checks (like Combat Casting and other values.)
Core p16: "Strength-based skills or checks"
Core p44: "Charisma-based skill check or Charisma ability check"
The only time the word "based" is used is in between an Ability and the word "Skill." I can not find a single reference to any other use of the word "based" related to abilities. The implication is that Ability checks are also ability "based" checks, but it is never stated. While I think it is intended that Ability checks are "-based" checks (because only the Ability modifier is added), the meaning of the word "based" in the CoP should not be extended to checks that are outside the scope of all uses of the word "-based" in the rest of the rules. In other words, you shouldn't add Concentration checks to the "-based" context without an example to follow.
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This means that a Concentration check can not be a Skill Check nor an Ability check.
...
This means that all abilities checks are checks that only add the ability modifier to the score, which a Concentration does not since there are things that are also added to Concentration checks (like Combat Casting and other values.)
Though I agree that a concentration check is not a skill check or an ability check, I don't understand how that's relevant. If the CoP said it applied to "CHA-based skill checks and ability checks", then pointing out that a concentration check is neither of those things would be the end of the discussion. But since it just says "CHA-based checks", I don't understand how separating the different kinds of checks from each other is relevant at all.
The only time the word "based" is used is in between an Ability and the word "Skill." I can not find a single reference to any other use of the word "based" related to abilities. The implication is that Ability checks are also ability "based" checks, but it is never stated. While I think it is intended that Ability checks are "-based" checks (because only the Ability modifier is added), the meaning of the word "based" in the CoP should not be extended to checks that are outside the scope of all uses of the word "-based" in the rest of the rules. In other words, you shouldn't add Concentration checks to the "-based" context without an example to follow.
Let me see if I'm following you correctly:
You're saying that when the CoP says "CHA-based checks", that phrase can only be referring to a subcategory of checks (instead of all things defined as "checks") that have other examples in the rules of being preceded by the phrase "[ability]-based"?That is, you're saying that "CHA-based checks" is the name of a category of checks, rather than simply meaning "checks that are based on CHA"?
Or to put it yet another way, you believe that in the game there's an organization like so:
Top: CHECKS
Subcategories of "checks": concentration checks, ability-based checks, attacks, saves
Subcategories of "ability-based checks": skill checks, ability checks
Is that how you're seeing things?
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See SKR's answer in this thread:
What kinds of d20 rolls does the game have you make that (1) are called "checks" rather than saves or attacks, and (2) involve your Charisma modifier?
Oh, well that certainly helps. Adam Daigle's commentary earlier in that thread helps as well. Looks like it's pretty clearly intended to include concentration checks for CHA-casters, then. Thanks for the link!
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Seemed more of a question than an answer, honestly. If the implication (which I think may have been his point) is that anything named a 'check' (not saves or attacks) that involves the charisma modifier counts, then the answer to the concentration checks would be yes?See SKR's answer in this thread:
What kinds of d20 rolls does the game have you make that (1) are called "checks" rather than saves or attacks, and (2) involve your Charisma modifier?
Not the first time SKR has answered a question with a question; I'm guessing that he'd like show people the correct way to think about rules questions rather than just feed them a single, isolated answer. "Teach a man to fish" and all that. :)
Yes, I believe what he means is that (for CHA casters) a concentration check counts. This also fits commentary from designer Adam Daigle in the same thread.
RD I'm kind of on the fence on this, but I'm leaning towards a no on applying the bonus to concentration checks. They aren't called out as an ability check. Reading the quote above containing the description of concentration checks I would say it is more in line with a caster level check that includes an ability score.
However, this bonus would completely help with spells like Charm Person.
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RD I'm kind of on the fence on this, but I'm leaning towards a no on applying the bonus to concentration checks. They aren't called out as an ability check. Reading the quote above containing the description of concentration checks I would say it is more in line with a caster level check that includes an ability score.
However, this bonus would completely help with spells like Charm Person.
(Bolding mine.)
The circlet says nothing about needing to be an "ability check". Just a check that is CHA-based.As referenced a few posts above yours, designer Sean K Reynolds frames it as being a simple question of "Is it a check?" and "Is it CHA-based?", and a sorcerer's concentration checks fit the bill.
What about spells that have CMB or ability based checks, like Hydraulic Push and its cousins?
Combat maneuvers are attacks, not checks.
Checks are the d20 rolls labeled as "checks." They include CL checks, skill checks, and ability checks. While I don't think it's explicitly defined as such, a key feature of a check vs. an attack roll or saving throw is that there is no auto fail or success on a 1 or 20.
An interesting note is that in D&D 3E, combat maneuvers WERE checks (except for disarm and sunder, those were opposed attack rolls). Grapple used a grapple check; bull rush, trip, and over run used a strength check. These did NOT auto fail/succeed on a 1/20. The maneuver thing was a complete overhaul PF did.