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I've seen some of the other threads on Unarmed Fighter as an archetype versus Monk, and the consensus is generally that the Fighter does more damage...but that's looking at level 20. What about low to mid-level play?
I'm working on a Pathfinder Society character, starting out at level 1. The max it could ever go is 11, since retirement occurs at 12. The main benefit I see with the Unarmed Fighter at low levels is that they get to "cheat" when it comes to one style feat at level 1. Of course, the Master of Many Styles gets to do this repeatedly, and with the later feats in a style chain as well. You could basically complete a full Style tree by 6th level as a MoMS if you focused on it.
Martial Artist has to "play fair" for Style Feats, but by 4th level they can "cheat" and pick up Fighter feats (like Weapon Specialization).
So let's assume for the moment that all three characters have a Strength of 16. Let us also assume that all three will, eventually, be going for Dragon Style.
At first level:
The Martial Artist has +3 to hit once, or +2/+2 on a flurry, doing 1d6+3 with both attacks (average of 14 damage per turn if both attacks hit).
The Master of Many Styles has their first Dragon Style Feat, so the first attack in their flurry does 1d6+4, raising their average to 15 damage per turn if both attacks hit.
The Unarmed Fighter also has their first dragon style feat, but they'll need two-weapon fighting to give them their second attack. They'll have +4 if they attack once, or the same +2/+2 with TWF. Damage will be a mere 1d3+4 for the first strike, and 1d3+3 for the second. Average of 11.
If human, all three of our examples will have an additional feat. The Fighter could pick up Power Attack, which would drop him to +1/+1, and giving him a bit of extra damage on both attacks, raising the average to 14. The Monks don't really have any other damage increasing options that I know of, so we'll leave those be.
At 1st level then, the Master of Many Styles wins, with the most damage at a decent chance to hit.
Now lets look at our fellas at level 5.
The MoMS has, at this point, gotten two feats into his style and has been that way since 2nd level. With Dragon Ferocity, he's getting an extra +1 to his damage rolls. He could also have picked up Power Attack at level 3, giving him +2 damage to each of his attacks, since unarmed monk attacks are never off-hand. His damage has gone up to a d8, so if he hits all three attacks his average is up to 23 damage per turn. How likely is he to get that kind of damage? Well, He'll be at +5/+5, if I'm doing my math right.
The Martial Artist has finally been able to pick up Dragon Style (at 3rd) but won't get Dragon Ferocity until 6th level as a bonus feat. On the bright side, he was able to pick up Power Attack as his bonus feat at 2nd level, and Weapon Specialization at 5th. That leaves us with an average of 25 damage per turn if all attacks hit. On the bright side, Exploit Weakness gives him a +2 to all of his attack rolls if he succeeds at a d20+WIS+Monk Level check versus 10+Target's CR, a roll that is weighted in his favor. He will also be ignoring DR. Plus he had to pick up Weapon Focus, so his attack bonus would be +8/+8.
The Unarmed Fighter, due to problems with prerequisites, was unable to pick up Dragon Ferocity with his 4th level bonus feat, and will have to wait until 6th level. He does, however, get Weapon Specialization at 4th level, and Weapon Training at 5th level, for a total of +3 to damage all the time. Sadly, he has only two attacks still. I believe that leaves his damage per turn at 17 if he uses TWF. His attack bonus is also +8/+8 with TWF, if my math is correct.
The Martial Artist has pulled ahead.
At 10th level let's assume that all 3 have STR 18:
The MoMS could complete the Dragon Style chain by this point, or have two feats into the Boar Style chain and combine boar style's bleed damage with the damage bonuses from the first two feats of Dragon Style. So that'd be...a lot of damage. Dragon Style only adds 1.5 times strength to the first attack, but still that's 58 damage plus 12 points of bleed, for an average of 70 per round if all attacks hit. 11/11/6/6 attack bonuses.
The Martial Artist will have the same attack bonus, but won't be able to combine styles. On the right side, by 10th level he'll have Greater Weapon Specialization. I believe this will leave him around 66 damage per turn if all attacks hit, with a bonus of 13/13/8/8 when he flurries.
The Unarmed Fighter...honestly, I don't know how to help him catch up at this point. 55 damage per turn by my count, since off-hand attacks only add +1 damage from Power Attack. Anyone have a good build here?
So as near as I can tell, the best absolute damage would be the Master of Many Styles, with the Martial Artist probably being the best option overall, due to its ability to ignore DR.
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well one big issue was the point of the fighters ability "weapon specialization" and also that they can add in natural attacks while the monk only replaces his flurry attacks with unarmed attacks. (that's the only way they get ahead)
Prior to the ruling of at 7th lvl if you have a point of ki in your pool you get the ability to bypass coldiron and silver, there was the huge issue of DR. That and the AoMF was so expensive, which now it's expensive but not prohibitively so.
Monkeying around blog shows the changes.
I definatly think monks are back at the king of unarmed damage point like they should be, but the focused fighter can certainly keep up. I think best is probably throwing in three levels of Weapon Master "unarmed strike" so you can get weapon training at lvl 3 rather than 4, and then get dueling gloves
The Martial Artist Monk will have Greater Weapon Focus, so I think they're only behind by 2.
In retrospect, the comparison is a little weird, since Unarmed Fighters are clearly more optimized to be Grapple monkeys...in that case you'd probably skip TWF entirely and focus on Greater Grapple, right?
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Martial artists can qualify for fighter feats as if they were a fighter. If you're that worried about accuracy that is. (but you lose ki pool which means you're reliant on getting to a +4 aomf asap which in PFS is a bit off, but then again you can ignore DR with a check, so fair trade off)
I'll stand behind my "if you dip three levels fighter" they're only one point ahead in the two hit department" comment.
And as long as the fighter isn't cheesing in some natural attacks, the monk will be ahead in damage.
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pretty exhausting conversation (I'd recommend skipping the first 200 or so posts if not all but the last 50
Basically the fighter can be more accurate, but the monk will do more damage period unless you allow for natural attacks.
As it stands the best is a combination of fighter and monk together.
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You know, after all of this, my original idea for my next PFS character was a Metal Elemental Wizard, but I eventually realized that I just wanted to be a martial artist who could turn into metal. And honestly, if the Metal Elemental wizard wasn't intended for monks to dip into, I have no idea what the hell it's good for.
But that's a whole 'nother thread. Thanks for the help, everyone.
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Nicos I'm assuming that the unarmed focus fighter will not go weapon specialist when I make this claim. We can assume the gear is all the same my "ultimate" monk would look something like this.
3 weapon master/9 Martial Artist
str 20 (base 17 +3 from leveling)
Considering all the gear etc are going to be the same the only feat differences will be Weapon training 1 vs weapon training 2. But hitting on 2d6 base rather than 1d3.
I could break it down a bit more, but the net is that this monk is treated as a lvl 12 fighter for feats, has 5 bonus feats from fighter and monk
The fighter has two more bonus feats, but I don't think it'll make a difference accuracy since they'll both take all the accuracy ones possible.
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Afther reading those posts i really do not see a conclusive proof for the monk outdamage a unarmed fighter.pretty exhausting conversation (I'd recommend skipping the first 200 or so posts if not all but the last 50
Look at duskblades argument without the natural attack cheese and the fighter is clearly behind. Even with the natural attacks the fighter is only by a small amount (and that's with a considerable level of cheesed natural attacks thrown in, IE 3)
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it was mostly for at lvl 20, if you want a lvl 12 build just give me the criteria (ie expected wealth at level) and any restrictions (I like using PFS rules myself so 20pt builds no item creation feats, a few archetypes banned, no weird races etc)
-edit- I have a lunch break soon and can have a build up for you in like 1 hr
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when you say standard monster, go ahead and give the AC etc. I'll provide the build if you'll run the numbers. I can do the math, but it's more trouble to set up and do while working then I want to.
from what I understand with encounters, you usually don't have a monster = your cr you have several that are your lvl -2 or 4 even.
While the styles that directly effect damage and style are of course going to be the first place to look, I was wondering about a master of many styles that combined crane and snake styles as the focus.
While a defensive strategy is rarely appropriate for a thread about max DPR, the fact that MoMS lets you get the Snake style feats in their entirety by level 6 means that an opponent's miss gives you an attack of opportunity. Snake Fang not only gives you an attack of opportunity on a miss, but if you hit on that strike, you get another (which I think not count towards your maximum number of AoO's per round, might be misreading). Crane style softens the penalties of fighting defensively, and helps your AC. You can also use Crane Wing to deflect an attack and get another AoO from Crane Riposte. That is up to three extra attacks, made off of your round, based off of two attacks not hitting you. The only problem I can see here is that you would need to take a penalty to attack until your next turn, and that would apply to the AoO's as well.
I noticed, however, that you were using TWF for your MoMS build too. I assume this is fairly standard once Flurry is gone. This idea requires your feats to be fairly devoted to crane style and combat reflexes. Would be possibility of extra attacks be worth forgoing the TWF feats? This could be 5 attacks in a round. But even if you CAN get those hits, it takes quite a few levels to get to the point you could take advantage of them. The build plays defensively, so you could survive it, but since you are going for power, would you feel like doing so? It does not come into full fruition until 'mid to late' PFS too.
I don't think Crane and Snake synergize that well together, seeing as Snake Style's bonus to AC takes the form of replacing your AC with a Sense Motive Check (but only against one guy). I guess if you just wanted a lot of counterattacks, that could work, since you'd get one whenever someone actually hit you (via Crane Riposte) once per round, and when someone missed you.
I think the ideal style for an Unarmed Fighter would either be Boar Style (for sheer damage) or Snapping Turtle Style, which can be mastered by 5th level and leaves you with a+2 shield bonus to AC and a free grapple check whenever someone misses you.
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since alot of advice centers around PFS, I'm using that as a guideline of what can and can't be done.
I'll start with the core stats.
lvl 12 monk (Martial Artist), Variant Aasimar Angelkin
str 26(+8) (base 17 +3 from lvl +2 race +4 item)
dex 14(+2)
Con 12(+1)
Intelligence 10(-)
Wisdom 20(+5) (+2 racial+4 item)
Charisma 7(-2)
Feats lvl 1 - Angelic Blood, Dodge (bonus feat)
lvl 2 - Deflect Arrows
lvl 3 - Weapon Focus
lvl 5 - Weapon Specialization
lvl 6 - Mobility
lvl 7 - Dragon Style
lvl 9 - Greater Weapon Focus
lvl 10- Imp critical
lvl 11- Dragon Ferocity
lvl 12 108k wealth.
64k AoMF +4
13k Monk Robes
16k belt of strength +4
9k Cloak of resistance +3
5k Dusty rose prism (+1ac)
(I realize I could take a bunch of cheaper items and come out ahead in a few areas, but keeping the gear simple)
Attacks @lvl 12 (shame the greater TWF doesn't kick in until 15) looks like this. (I'm assuming exploit weakness will land enough since it's wis+lvl vs 10+cr, in this case if it's cr 12 7 or better, anything less is much easier)
+10/+10/+5/+5/+0 (now we add weapon focus(2), str(8), aomf(3), and exploit (2) in)
+25/+25/+20/+20/+15 at 2d8+12(1.5xstr due to dragon, 1st attack +16) weapon specialization +4, AoMF +4
So attack is 2d8+24 and 2d8+20 for the rest.
AC= 23 (dodge, wisdom, monk lvl 17(robes), dex, ioun stone)
Saves are +12/+13/+16
I'm sure angelic blood could be replaced with something else, but I kind of fancy taking the feat at lvl 15 for extra ac and then 17 for wings. =D
The build could easily work with other archetypes since the DR issue at lvl 7 and with AoMF have been adjusted and clarified. But with this you at least get fighter feats rolled in. I would probably myself go with a different archetype for monk myself, and also multiclass, but that's a different thread right?
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I disagree with you on the "if it doesn't keep up with a rogue" comment.
This is about analyzing it at 12. It's clear the feat selection would go differently as you level (albiet not much different) regardless of what the OP asked for specifically other things are being addressed right now, (and addressing his issue, just not exactly as he originally requested, but it's a bit more thorough then what he asked imo)
(Also lvl 12 is not mandatory retirement for PFS, there's several lvl 12+ mods, and now there's shattered star and Rise of the Runelords to take you all the way to 20!)
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I would actually assume weapon specialist fighter with dueling armor enchant, AoMF +3. with the feats that lets their attacks do regular damage they'd come to d3+8(str)+4(weapon training)+3 (aomf)+ 4 weapon specialization, +2 brawling (all this at my lvl 12 example)
What I'm curious if you could do is add brass knuckles enchantment say +3 and then have the AoMF just provide flaming and holy. Since Brass knuckles are a unarmed strike.
Assuming you could do this you could end up with d3+2d6(holy)+1d6(fire)+21
I've seen some of the other threads on Unarmed Fighter as an archetype versus Monk, and the consensus is generally that the Fighter does more damage...but that's looking at level 20. What about low to mid-level play?
I did this before level 20. It has actually been done at level 10. I did it at level 11 or 13, and the fighter was already ahead. There is nothing magical that takes place at level 20. In other words if a class is better at _____ before at level 20 then it can do it better before level 20.
I did this before level 20. It has actually been done at level 10. I did it at level 11 or 13, and the fighter was already ahead. There is nothing magical that takes place at level 20. In other words if a class is better at _____ before at level 20 then it can do it better before level 20.
I've seen some of the other threads on Unarmed Fighter as an archetype versus Monk, and the consensus is generally that the Fighter does more damage...but that's looking at level 20. What about low to mid-level play?
I'm not seeing how a Fighter ends up ahead at level 10. The Martial Artist can qualify for Fighter Feats after level 4, so the only thing the Fighter has going for him is Weapon Training.
Wait, I'm confused. How did you get those four feats at first level? One for being human, one for being first level, improved unarmed attack you get for free as an unarmed fighter, but the fourth "feat" should be a Style feat (which replaces the Fighter's usual bonus feat at first level).
If you took your first level as a regular fighter, you would only have had three feats to start, unless I'm missing something.
I am actually trying to build a level 1 monk right now for RotRL, and having found this thread was pure gold. I am guessing in the end there will be flavour choices to be done regarding which character to play - there is more to a monk than the dpr, like skills, saves etc., but hey, this is a DPR comparison, so all good.
I see a difference in 15 dpr at level 12, but we haven't actually factored in what may be added by forfeiting the monks' increased unarmed strike damage and perhaps adding an enchanted set of brass knuckles...
In any case, what concerns me the most is the defensive aspect of the Martial Artist - since in my case this guy will be the frontliner (it was just decided like that), without the added style feats from the MoMS it seems he will be sorely pressed to stay alive (able to use the Exploit Weakness against only one opponent), at the same time losing the flurry of blows... Which is a shame because I was expecting to be able to pull a decent dpr by going straight monk - I'm guessing it makes sense that you always have to give up some offensive capability to have more defensive options.
But then again, this is dpr comparison, and I don't want to derail it :D
Okay, I put together an Unarmed Fighter focused on grappling for Society play. I'll be starting at level 1, of course. Here's what I've got:
DEX 16
CON 13
INT 10
WIS 12
CHA 10
AC: 18
HP: 11
ATK: +4 (1d3+6)
Skills:
Diplomacy +5
Sense Motive +6
Survival +5
Swim +7
Feats:
Improved Unarmed Strike
Snapping Turtle Style
Improved Grapple
Power Attack
Traits:
Honeyed Tongue
Suspicious
Gear:
Leather Lamellar Armor
Cestus
Fighting Fan
Crowbar
Explorer's Outfit
Dan Bong
67gp, 9sp
I'm left with a few questions though:
1. The Cestus says that you can wield items and such, so presumably you could grapple without penalty while using them, right?
2. The Dan Bong gives +2 to grapple checks, but it seems unclear whether or not using one would impose the -4 penalty to grapple checks from not having both hands empty
3. The idea here is to work towards Greater Grapple and Snapping Turtle Clutch, so I can grapple the victim on their turn when/if they miss, and use two move actions on my turn to damage them twice during the grapple. Viable?
I'm not seeing how a Fighter ends up ahead at level 10. The Martial Artist can qualify for Fighter Feats after level 4, so the only thing the Fighter has going for him is Weapon Training.I did this before level 20. It has actually been done at level 10. I did it at level 11 or 13, and the fighter was already ahead. There is nothing magical that takes place at level 20. In other words if a class is better at _____ before at level 20 then it can do it better before level 20.
I've seen some of the other threads on Unarmed Fighter as an archetype versus Monk, and the consensus is generally that the Fighter does more damage...but that's looking at level 20. What about low to mid-level play?After the two builds in this thread, it seems that the fighter ends up ahead arounds those levels in the DPR deparment, although not by much. The master of many styels seems to lag behind by much.
When this was done at level 10 not all the current books were available so the monk might be ahead at 10, but by level 12 or 13 at the latest my money is on the fighter since that is the level that I did it at.
Okay, I put together an Unarmed Fighter focused on grappling for Society play. I'll be starting at level 1, of course. Here's what I've got:
** spoiler omitted **
I'm left with a few questions though:
1. The Cestus says that you can wield items and such, so presumably you could grapple without penalty while using them, right?
2. The Dan Bong gives +2 to grapple checks, but it seems unclear whether or not using one would impose the -4 penalty to grapple checks from not having both hands empty
3. The idea here is to work towards Greater Grapple and Snapping Turtle Clutch, so I can grapple the victim on their turn when/if they miss, and use two move actions on my turn to damage them twice during the grapple. Viable?
The cestus should not stop you from being able to grapple since it is basically a metal glove.
For question 2, if it has the grapple ability then it should not impose a penalty.
3. It will work against humanoid(medium) creatures, but around level 10 CMB checks dont work as well vs monsters, but since PFS stops at level 12 it should not be too much of an issue.
There are some things to keep in mind. Like, until higher levels, monk's base unarmed damage is only increasing by an average of 1 point of damage every 4 levels. It's the initial jump from d3 to d6 at level 1 that is something...well, a 1.5 point damage increase.... But Fighter can easily just dip monk for that d6 if he wants to. Another consideration is TWF versus flurry. A Fighter can TWF with unarmed strikes *and* attach natural weapons (gained via race or multiclassing, but getting a claw/claw/bite routine is pretty easy, at least) to the end of his full attack. Monk cannot do that with flurry. He does get full str to damage, on the plus side. Though if the Guided weapon property is available, either PC can just slap that on an AoMF and get full wis to damage on any attack anyway.
That out of the way.... Fighter just plain does more damage and has much better to hit. At level 1, he may not, but by early-mid levels he has pulled ahead.
Let's assuming the fighter and monk have an equal attack/damage (likely strength) ability score, even though Monk is more MAD than Fighter, making this unlikely. Same AoMF / unarmed enhancement bonus. Flurrying, so same BAB (when not full attacking, monk will obviously be lower to hit).
Fighter is getting +2 damage each from Weapon Spec. and Greater WS over the Monk, and +1 to hit from Greater Weapon Focus over him, at the relevant levels. He is also getting a +1 to +4 attack and damage boost from Weapon Training and a +2/+2 from gloves of dueling once affordable. Further, the Fighter can wear armor w/o throwing away 1/3 of his class features, so unlike the monk, Fighter has armor w/ the Brawling property, another untyped +2/+2, and can easily afford this by level 4-5 if prioritized (it should be).
Let's take a snapshot at level 4. Fighter has WS feat and brawling armor. He is at +2 to hit and +4 damage vs. the monk, who counters w/ an average of 2 more base weapon damage (d8 vs. d3). By level 4, the Fighter is already winning handily in the damage race. Next level, he gets Weapon Training while monk gets no new edge, widening it more. At level 6, Fighter gets ITWF, while the monk has to wait till level 8 for Flurry to get another attack. And the comparison breaks apart even more the higher level you go. I will admit the monk can possibly out-damage the fighter at levels 1-3, if the Fighter is not bringing natural weapons to bear and full attacking is an option most combat rounds.
Again, the Martial Artist archetype lets the Monk pick up the Weapon Specialization/Weapon Focus feats. All the Fighter has going in his favor is Weapon Training, Brawling Armor, and Gloves of Dueling. At level 4, Weapon Training is just +1. Assuming that our fighter has both the gloves and the brawling armor, that's an extra 5 damage per strike, enough to put the fighter *slightly* ahead in damage when you compensate for the difference between a d3 and a d8 damage die.
Of course, the Martial Artist can always console himself with his vastly superior saving throws, skill points, and class skill list. And the ability to ignore DR without investing in a magic weapon.
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Again, the Martial Artist archetype lets the Monk pick up the Weapon Specialization/Weapon Focus feats. All the Fighter has going in his favor is Weapon Training, Brawling Armor, and Gloves of Dueling. At level 4, Weapon Training is just +1. Assuming that our fighter has both the gloves and the brawling armor, that's an extra 5 damage per strike, enough to put the fighter *slightly* ahead in damage when you compensate for the difference between a d3 and a d8 damage die.
Of course, the Martial Artist can always console himself with his vastly superior saving throws, skill points, and class skill list. And the ability to ignore DR without investing in a magic weapon.
Martial Artist doesn't gain the ability to take Fighter feats until 4th level, meaning he can't take Weapon Specialization until 5th, so that's actually an extra 7 damage per strike at 4th level.
Playing a Martial Artist seems to make sense, but isn't the loss of the ki pool simply horrible..?