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(*Well not really, but pretty damn close)
Ok some background first, then the build. I'm taking a break from a DMing for a bit (after 18 years or so) and a friend of mine is taking over the reins. This is my first time playing Pathfinder as a player so I'll admit I've got a bit of the kid in the candy store look going on right now. That being said I'm torn between a Magus and Oracle. The DM just said he will look at feats from 3rd party vendors and approve them on a case by case basis, which has gotten me all excited for playing a scimitar magus with an ungodly crit range of 10+ (only X 2, but hey what are you going to do).
I'm going to post the basic build along with what I'm looking at for a feat progression and I would like some honest advice on if I missed anything in way of feats of there is something I should take in place of what I've chosen. Before I post my build here are the feats from the third party supplement.
Zombie Orpheus Entertainment recently published an adventer call Mask of Death based off of the adventure run in their movie The Gamers: Dorkness Rising, which if you haven't seen you should.
Well this adventure had some custom content including the following feats;
*Critical Momentum (requires Base attack bonus + 5) - Description: Everytime you land a critical hit, you immediately get another attack at your highest attack bonus.
*Expanded Critical (requires Fighter 7) - Description: Add your Dex Bonus to your critical hit threat range (maximum of +4)
and
*Precision Strike (requires Fighter 7) - Description: Add your Int Bonus to your critical hit threat range (maximum of +4)
The author of the adventure admits that these feats are of "questionable" balance, but included for seek of completeness for the movie.
Now even though I am looking for advice to make sure I didn't miss anything, I'm fairly certain that my DM will shoot down one of more of those feats, so until he approves this everything I post is all theorycraft. That being said, here is my base build and feat progression.
Human Magus (Kensai Archetype)
Starting stats (20 base)
Str = 12
Dex = 16 (14 bas + 2 Human Bonus)
Con = 14
Int = 16
Wis = 10
Cha = 8
Traits = Magical Lineage (Shocking Grasp) and Reactionary
Skills:
Knowledge: Arcana (Class)
SpellCraft (Class)
Knowledge: (Dungeoneering) (class) (A Bit of metagaming since I know it's going to be an aberrant heavy adventure)
Perfom: Dance (Cross-class)
Perception (Cross-class)
Feats:
Weapon Focus: Scimitar (Kensai bonus)
Weapon Finesse
Dodge (Human Bonus)
Putting the favorited class bonus into getting extra arcana
This should net me starting stats of the following;
AC = 15
HP = 10
Saves
Fort = +4, Ref = +3, Will = +2
Attack with Scimitar = +2 TH, 1d6 + 1 damage
Nothing too outlandish at first level. Some notes, I took Kensai for the extra feats. Since Kensai gets access to fighter feats earlier, I can complete the above feat selection earlier, which makes me more effective at lower levels. I went human for the bonus to Arcana pool and the extra feat at first level. Maybe I'll be really outlandish and see if he'll let me play a pureblood Azlanti. Here is what I am looking at for feats as I go up in levels.
3rd = Dervish Dance
5th = Intensify Spell
5th (bonus) = Improved Initiative
7th = Weapon Specialization: Scimitar
9th = Critical Momentum (see above)
11th = Expanded Critical (see above)
11th (bonus) = Combat Reflexes
13th = Precision Strike (see above)
15th = Critical Focus
17th = Bleeding Critical
17th (bonus) = Quicken Spell
19th = Greater Weapon Focus
Now unfortunately Improved Critical and Keen do not stack with Expanded Critical nor Precision Strike, otherwise the crit range would drop to 7+.
Still undecided on Arcana, but if you want to suggest anything in particular, please feel free to do so.
Very nice. This would be an interesting class to play. Wonder what my party's fighter would be like if I suddenly told them I crit almost every atk. He usually hits with a HUGE bonus to attacks, but at this point, the dmg is only avg.
If you are getting traits as well there is also the Anatomy trait to give you a +1 to crit confirm rolls.
That said, were I your GM, I wouldn't allow any of those feats. Every single one of them is op. I 'might' allow critical momentum at BAB +11 or BAB +16. As a player, do you know if the other players are going to be looking to optimize to this extent? If so, sure run with it, if not you are likely going to cause headaches for the other players and your GM. Other players will feel overshadowed a lot. GM will have problems with encounter balance.
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I severely doubt your DM is going to let you do this. It sounds ridiculous, especially for a Magus, whose bread and butter is getting big nasty touch spell crits.
Like, I took one look at those feats that you listed and thought "Haha, oh wow. There's no way anyone would ever allow that."
The author of the adventure admits that these feats are of "questionable" balance, but included for seek of completeness for the movie.
Questionable? No, what hotdogs are made out of is questionable. This is outright broken. In the context of the movie, which I loved, it's fine, but at a table where you're playing with friends? Not even close.
We actually put out the skirmisher base class in our Tome of Ingenuity book. They are about as "crit-fisher" friendly as possible, though they have a fun "creativity" mechanic as well.
On a related not, I have a two weapon kensai in my game that did something similar. It HUTS to watch him rip up my encounters :-)
If your gm decides that the feats in question are beyond the pale, you could suggest that their effects could be cut in half. I would suggest a max modifier of 2 each and attacks from critical momentum are considered AoO's. Your crit range would still be 14-20 and you would be able to keep that lovely extra attack spam while eating up your attacks of opportunity.
Just food for thought.
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@bbangerter - To be honest, the other players won't optimize anywhere close to this. Also good idea for critical momentum, but I would probably also limit the amount of free attacks you can gain in a turn to probably no more then one per attack and the extra attacks do not allow another free attack if they crit.
@Seranov - LOL.. here's the authors exact quotes on the feats, "These feats are...of questionable balance. Let's be honest, they're broke as hell."
I really don't expect him to approve them (and I sure as hellfire wouldn't if I was in his place)so this is more an exercise in theorycraft over a practical build.
That being said he may still allow them, but with modifications (like not letting precision strike and expanded critical stack or what was indicated with critical momentum.
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If your gm decides that the feats in question are beyond the pale, you could suggest that their effects could be cut in half. I would suggest a max modifier of 2 each and attacks from critical momentum are considered AoO's. Your crit range would still be 14-20 and you would be able to keep that lovely extra attack spam while eating up your attacks of opportunity.
Just food for thought.
Actually that's not too bad of an idea Trogdor, or even just say the two feats don't stack. Still limits me to a +4 threat range (so a 14+) and limits the amount of free attacks.
Even without the ridiculousness that is Critical Momentum, these feats still let you get 12-20/x4.
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In that case, it looks completely legit to me. Kensai has a thing that lets you use Magus levels as "Fighter - 2" for qualifying for feats, right?
Just remember, though, that a Magus (Kensai especially!) will burn through all of his spells and be left as a 3/4 BAB d8 HP fighter with some okay class abilities. Plan accordingly!
Actually that's not too bad of an idea Trogdor, or even just say the two feats don't stack. Still limits me to a +4 threat range (so a 14+) and limits the amount of free attacks.If your gm decides that the feats in question are beyond the pale, you could suggest that their effects could be cut in half. I would suggest a max modifier of 2 each and attacks from critical momentum are considered AoO's. Your crit range would still be 14-20 and you would be able to keep that lovely extra attack spam while eating up your attacks of opportunity.
Just food for thought.
Indeed, though the reason I suggested that you halve the bonuses is because you would have three feats that, individually, were equivalent to other critical feats.
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In that case, it looks completely legit to me. Kensai has a thing that lets you use Magus levels as "Fighter - 2" for qualifying for feats, right?
Just remember, though, that a Magus (Kensai especially!) will burn through all of his spells and be left as a 3/4 BAB d8 HP fighter with some okay class abilities. Plan accordingly!
It's fighter minus 3 (at 7th level) and indeed there is always the problem with burning all my spells. Ahh the dilemmas of specialized characters.. all fine and dandy till they lose that one thing that makes them special.. then they're just dandy
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Also good idea for critical momentum, but I would probably also limit the amount of free attacks you can gain in a turn to probably no more then one per attack and the extra attacks do not allow another free attack if they crit.
'Free' attacks are really rare in the game. If modifying this Feat for actual use, I'd suggest it allowing an AoO on a target you crit, or maybe an AoO if your crit confirmation roll is also in the weapon's critical threat range, something like that?
@bbangerter - To be honest, the other players won't optimize anywhere close to this. Also good idea for critical momentum, but I would probably also limit the amount of free attacks you can gain in a turn to probably no more then one per attack and the extra attacks do not allow another free attack if they crit.
@Seranov - LOL.. here's the authors exact quotes on the feats, "These feats are...of questionable balance. Let's be honest, they're broke as hell."
Heck, supposedly the girl wasn't a newbie not an optimizer, but she was one who chose those feats. The movie was fibbing and trying to make her useful, but seriously, the optimizers would have taken those feats if they knew about them.
Not directly on topic but weapon focus has bab 1 prerequisite which the magus doesn't have at first level. So your feat progression has to change.
Not directly on topic but weapon focus has bab 1 prerequisite which the magus doesn't have at first level. So your feat progression has to change.
The Kensai archetype grants Weapon Focus at first level as a class ability.
Ah, I see, missed that. My bad
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Heck, supposedly the girl wasn't a newbie not an optimizer, but she was one who chose those feats. The movie was fibbing and trying to make her useful, but seriously, the optimizers would have taken those feats if they knew about them.
I know!! that was my biggest gripe with the movie (all be it a forgettable gripe) considering the others were supposed to be these great min/maxers and optimizers.
These feats are stupid, and a perfect example of why 3rd party material shouldn't be allowed in games.
Here's a better feat for you, ask your GM if you can use it:
I think you'll find this a little better than the measly feats you've suggested.
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These feats are stupid, and a perfect example of why 3rd party material shouldn't be allowed in games.
Here's a better feat for you, ask your GM if you can use it:
** spoiler omitted **
I think you'll find this a little better than the measly feats you've suggested.
That feat is awesome except for the fact I know my dice. I would NEVER roll even on that d8, then I would be stuck leveling up the old fashioned way.. woe is me.
I don't get it, You've been DM for 18 years. You finally have a chance to play. And you want to break the Dm's campaign?
Did it cross your mind for one second how you would feel if the situation was reversed? Wether or not you assume he will reject the feats why are you even asking?
I guess it will dawn on you when you're back to Dming after the second session.
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I'm not really serious about playing this character. As I indicated earlier I don't expect the DM to approve the feats (I've playing with him the entire time I've been a DM and known him for years before I started DMing)and frankly would be very worried at what he had planned for me if he DID approve them as is. Also if he did approve it I can guarantee it would be with caveats and modifications.
This is purely a theorycraft build, which means I don't have any expectations of actually playing him. I built it purely to see WHAT the build looks like and threw it onto the forums to A.) share it and B.) see if there was anything specifically I was missing. I've been DMing for so long I may miss feat combos that are great on PCs, but crap on mobs/npcs.
So Cinderfist, I'm not really looking at breaking his campaign, nor would I do it on purpose (by accident? sure, but not on purpose).
It is my understanding they would not stack with any other sources that increase threat range
with that said they are not broken because you would only get get to a fourteen-
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It is my understanding they would not stack with any other sources that increase threat range
They won't stack with Improved Critical or Keen because those specifically spell out they don't work with other sources that increase threat ranges. They will work with each other because there's nothing in the feats preventing them from stacking. They had to have them stack to keep the feats viable for the thematics of the movie.
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Do you anticipate having 45 hit points at level 9?
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Bit of an update. We had character creation last night. I told Eric (my dm) about this and he just stared at me for a moment, then laughed, told me no across the board, and gave me a beer. I got a beer out of it, which means it's a win.
However there are too many arcane casters in the group (a conjurer wizard and a sorcerer (sylvan)) so it looks like I'll be going Oracle (probably Elven Loremaster with the Time mystery), so unless he starts giving us acess to Nuclear Winter Fireballs from Hackmaster I don't see to much brokenness going on.
Thanks all for any comments or suggestions.
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Heh, was worth a shot! ;)
On a vaguely related note, I have been trying to figure out a way to build a character based on Nox from Wakfu and Okarin from Steins;Gate, only to discover that short of like level 17, there is no way to depict a character with power over time, limited as it may be. Or a cannon Golarion deity with Time as part of their portfolio, even. Frustrating.
Hope you enjoy your oracle.
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Thanks :)
hmm.. that's tough. I know they developed a chronomancer class for 2nd ed D&D that was pretty cool. It was never developed for 3.5/pathfinder though. Mongooose publishing put out a 3.5 suppliment on chronomancy though. I have both in PDF format if you want. Send me a message with your email and I can send em to you. Should be easy to convert both to Pathfinder.
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If the dm is allowing 3rd party classes and 3.5 prestige id go with 8 levels of Swashbuckler with 7 levels of Weapon Master using a rapier. This class combo would give u a threat range of 12-20 using a rapier with the improved critical feat. Btw Weapon Master is the 3.5 prestige class and i believe it in the Complete Warrior Book and Swashbuckler is from Adamant Entertainment.
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If the dm is allowing 3rd party classes and 3.5 prestige id go with 8 levels of Swashbuckler with 7 levels of Weapon Master using a rapier. This class combo would give u a threat range of 12-20 using a rapier with the improved critical feat. Btw Weapon Master is the 3.5 prestige class and i believe it in the Complete Warrior Book and Swashbuckler is from Adamant Entertainment.
Good idea, thanks. However I've played a swashbuckler before (when the complete warrior first came out back in the day) and I'm looking at playing a class that I've never played before.
Swashbuckler Rogue with the Duelist PrC using a Scimitar while Dervish Dancing...
Excuse me while I plan yet another character that will probably be reduced to an NPC...
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Swashbuckler Rogue with the Duelist PrC using a Scimitar while Dervish Dancing...
Excuse me while I plan yet another character that will probably be reduced to an NPC...
Hmm..interesting... I can see that being fun as all get out.. as a note, wouldn't a bard with the Dawnflower Dervish archetype work well with that too?
Yes... Yes it would...
they look badass. You should consider a muse touched aasimar with favoured bonuses in enhancing inspire courage. You would hit +8 at level 12.
Human Bard(Dervish Dancer) would be effective as well for increased Spell Selection and their Versatile Dance ability...
Or an Arcane Duelist.
I am going to build them as recurring NPCs in my upcoming campaign.
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You know in retrospect I think those critical threat expansion feats I mentioned earlier (if you could find a DM crazy enough to allow them) would be insanely effective on a ray based wizard (if you could get around the fighter requirements) moreso then on a melee character. Changing the critical threat on a ray spell to 11+ would make a blaster wizard drool.
dawnflower dervish doubles the effects of all of its combat performances. The aasimar racial bonus makes your effective level 1/2 higher per level in one that you choose. so at level 12, your effective bardic performance level for inspire courage is 18