Message To All Voters

[Tels]

There is a concern I have due to the inclusion of crowdsourcing the Wondrous Item entries. Something that I fear may happen, and have seen hints of in a couple threads, is the mocking of items once discussion is opened after the top 32 have been announced.

There are many people that are entering this competition, some are just kids, some don't have English as a first, second or even third language, some are simply brand new players. For whatever reason, some entries by hopeful contestants will be seen as outstandingly horrible. It is my hope that no one discusses any of the items outside of the competition, short of the author of the item himself asking for help and criticism.

I, personally, do not want to see people bringing up items without the author's consent, and then harshly criticizing the item. While you may mean nothing by the criticism, some of the people entering could be nothing more than young children. Some could be people who are extremely proud of their item, only for a messageboard of anonymous faces slamming the item, and by extension, the author. I say the author, because many people take criticism of their work as criticism of the self.

Please, don't mock any entries you've come across. Don't bring them up in conversations as examples of scorn and derision. People have feelings attached to these entries, and if you're anything like me, I'd hate to be the cause of some player leaving the hobby we all love.

While this is the internet, and the internet can be full of cruel people that could careless about the actions they make, this is still a community. You wouldn't go to a place like a beach, enter a sandcastle competition, and then walk around mocking young children, old people, foreigners or any competitor just because you deemed their sandcastle unworthy. Just because you could be 10,000 miles away from the person, doesn't mean the things you do and say don't have consequences.

I know many people may think things like, "If they can't handle it, tough" but I don't think that is an attitude that we, as a community, should tolerate. We want to encourage people, to help them improve, and better the community as a whole. Insulting entries, and by extension the author, will only serve to hurt our community, and insure a smaller competition the next time around.

Our words and discussions on this board are representations of the people who play this game. If some parent interested in buying Pathfinder for their child were to come visit the site, and see the competition, only to find insults and mockery being made about entries, do you think the parent would be inclined to include their child into a community of bullies? I know I wouldn't want any of my nephews entering such a world where those who aren't up to snuff, are mocked, insulted, and held up as examples of what shouldn't be done.

Just be careful what you say about any of the items you read about while voting. Your words can have consequences well above and beyond what you intend them to have.

[Tripp Elliott]

This was covered in another thread, although I forget which one.

One of the Paizo guys stated a desire that only those items that get a "please critique my item" thread should talked aboutm and then only in that thread.

It goes without saying, per the forum rules, that a certain decorum would be expected in those threads.

[Tripp Elliott]

Like it says below this box "The most important rule: Don't be a jerk. We want our messageboards to be a fun and friendly place. Questions? Check the FAQ."

[Rich Malena]

Hear, hear! Even though I plan to submit mine for criticism and as much as I enjoy the jokes around some of the themes of the contest so far, I do think that if people don't want to be part of the critique process then they shouldn't be. No matter what anyone may think of a specific item, everyone should at least extend the smallest bit of respect to anyone who entered the contest and focus on being constructive to those who ask for it.

Thanks Tels for putting it so eloquently!

[MidknightDiamond]

I think it should also be mentioned for the purpose of this that the "Phrases that are driving you bonkers" thread isn't meant to indicate any one item and that anyone who submitted an item that might have one of those qualities shouldn't be overly disheartened. The only reason most of those things are being brought up as irksome (most, a few because they've been specifically advised against) is because of the repetitiveness of them. After seeing it a dozen or more times it can get to you. However, that doesn't mean that an item with any of those things can't be stellar, or isn't stellar. I've seen and voted for a number of entries that match that because they weren't bad, or were much better than many they were paired again. As it's been said in many threads, Clark specifically, everyone who entered with a legit item (not a joke, etc.) is a winner just for submitting. This is my 4th year, and though I haven't made the first cut yet I keep going, and I've been guilty of some of the pitfalls discussed--but every year I keep trying, undaunted. Every year I learn something new, my work gets a little better, and even though I don't make the cut--I get something out of it. And that's a great reward too.

[Liquidsabre]

I believe the rule of thumb that was suggested in the other thread was if an entrant brings up their item afterwards for critique on the forums, great, discuss away. Otherwise you do not talk about other entries, especially if you copied them and are thinking about posting it up. That is just in poor taste.

Again, if an entrant wishes to discuss, discuss, otherwise just don't go there. The threads we have up now about phrases and other entry pet peeves are great in their anonymity and usefulness for future entrants.

[Aaron Miller 335]

I must agree a very good point!

[Cinderfist]

Won't someone please think of the children!!

[Anthony Adam]

mmmmm,

child pie

child stew

roast child

boiled child

....

:P

[Damon Griffin]

Tels wrote:

I know many people may think things like, "If they can't handle it, tough" but I don't think that is an attitude that we, as a community, should tolerate.

Well said, and I'm ashamed to admit I probably did need this reminder, as some of the entries have been almost physically painful to read, and patience is not my long suit.

Thanks.

[Magical_Beast]

Agreed.

It takes a lot of courage to submit an entry and I know that I don't want to be responsible for someone being disheartened, even if their first attempt was not stellar.

Neither was mine. :/

[agirlnamedbob]

I'm actually really glad to see this thread, as some of the other threads have been making me a little uncomfortable. Don't get me wrong, I've been tempted to rant about some of the stuff I've seen that's really a put off, but I think it's more important to be supportive at this stage in the game.

Like MidknightDiamond said, too, making an item that fits a "theme" people are noticing doesn't make it a bad item. It might mean that similar items end up being in more direct competition with each other (two items, similar presentation/abilities, only one will survive! Fight!), but that doesn't mean one or both are bad items.

These items were all submitted anonymously, and I don't think most people who submitted thought they were opening themselves up to ridicule, even when it's meant to be constructive.

Personal Experience:

I don't just write. I also do art. One of my favorite parts of taking art classes when I was in school was doing group critiques. I loved hearing what everyone had to say, but it was always polite and respectful and done as a group. No hard feelings because we were all equally vulnerable with our works displayed while we pointed out the good and the bad of everyone's work.

That said, I had a terrible experience that pretty much turned me off of one style of art forever.

Essentially, we were working on watercolor. I have a very heavy hand with my art. I prefer working with acrylics, pen and ink, or pencils. Watercolor is too delicate for me, but it was the assignment, so I did my best and followed the instructions the teacher gave me. When the colors all got muddy and it wasn't working out, I went and fount my teacher and showed her what I had. I didn't think it was horrid, my linework was still okay, but the colors weren't looking like watercolor was supposed to. I asked her what I was doing wrong and if she could help me.

She kind of chuckled at my effort, which in and of itself, didn't upset me, but she took it from me and then walked up to the front of the class. She held it up for everyone to see and shouted out (and I am quoting, not exaggerating, I swear) "Okay, class. THIS is how NOT to use watercolor."

She didn't say it was mine or name me specifically, but I was mortified from being held up as a yardstick for terribleness when I only meant to show her and ask for help.

This is kind of the same deal. If someone posts up their item where everyone is helping each other, that's positive critique. If you see something you think is terrible and hold it up as an example of terribleness, even if you're just "trying to help them and others" that's just being a jerk. Some people may have already realized what they did wrong and they don't need to hear it a million more times.

Yeah, freelancers and anyone hoping to break into this industry needs thick skin, but again...there's a difference between your boss or your editor telling you to fix something and a bunch of faceless form users making an example out of what you thought was your best work.

TL;DR: Don't be a jerk and use people's items as examples of terribleness. Criticism is easier to take when everyone feels vulnerable and is sharing their work, as opposed to people pointing to a few items as examples of how to get it wrong.

[Coridan]

There is also a big difference in saying "This is terribad" and saying "This is an example of something very overpriced when compared to a ring of sustenence which in fact has more benefits" or "The hundred = signs used for spacing in this item are why we were given a template"

[Jess Door]

agirlnamedbob wrote:

** spoiler omitted **...

Spoiler:

I feel your pain. Watercolors are my bane. I'm not decisive and free wheeling enough to just lay the color down and leave it. I want to go back and "fix" it, which, with watercolors, leads to a picture of varicolored mud. ::sigh::

[Mikaze]

The "accentuate the negative" approach to everything has become so embedded in interbutt culture that we really do need reminders like this from time to time.

gg Tels.

[Jacob W. Michaels]

If it makes you feel better, you could hold up my artwork of stick figures and use that as an example of what not to do. (I wish I hard articistic skills.)

I am curious, though: What do people think about holding up items that we *like* afterward?

I'm keeping a file of a handful that made me go "ooh, that's neat." I don't think all of them are top 32 quality probably, but they appeal to me. I may add what I hope will be constructive criticism for a couple if there's something I think I see that could be slightly better, but for the most part I'd just be saying here were some of my personal favorites.

[Orcus Of Undeath]

Jacob W. Michaels wrote:

If it makes you feel better, you could hold up my artwork of stick figures and use that as an example of what not to do. (I wish I hard articistic skills.)

I am curious, though: What do people think about holding up items that we *like* afterward?

I'm keeping a file of a handful that made me go "ooh, that's neat." I don't think all of them are top 32 quality probably, but they appeal to me. I may add what I hope will be constructive criticism for a couple if there's something I think I see that could be slightly better, but for the most part I'd just be saying here were some of my personal favorites.

Well, I agree that'd be ok. But still, we should be careful.

[Will McCardell]

I was thinking about that Jacob and asked PMG if it'd be fine. His response was that it may be, but perhaps submitters wished for their items to not be shown unless they're in the top 32. I still might make a thread like that as it'd be purely praise, but I'd have to think about that objection for a bit.

[Kiel Howell]

@Jacob W. Michaels

While, personally, I would LOVE if someone did that...I'm sure there are some people who may not want their item associated to them at all if they didn't make the top 32.

***EDIT***

Double ninja'ed!

[Magical_Beast]

It would be nice to compliment the authors for a handful of items I've seen so far, including my personal #1, which made me slack-jawed with admiration when I read it.

I want to tell that person how awesome his/her item is, but I suspect I'll get to do that when they get selected to the top 32.

[Orcus Of Undeath]

Pendin Fust wrote:

@Jacob W. Michaels

While, personally, I would LOVE if someone did that...I'm sure there are some people who may not want their item associated to them at all if they didn't make the top 32.

Well, the entries are anonymous, so the only way for them to be associated with the items is for them to step up and say its their item. Or am I missing something?

[Orthos]

I'm pretty certain the names and items of the Top 32 will be announced publicly, when they're unveiled and ready to move on to Round 2.

[Orcus Of Undeath]

Orthos wrote:

I'm pretty certain the names and items of the Top 32 will be announced publicly, when they're unveiled and ready to move on to Round 2.

I was talking about the items that didn't make it to the top 32.

[Kiel Howell]

Orcus Of Undeath wrote:

Pendin Fust wrote:

@Jacob W. Michaels

While, personally, I would LOVE if someone did that...I'm sure there are some people who may not want their item associated to them at all if they didn't make the top 32.

Well, the entries are anonymous, so the only way for them to be associated with the items is for them to step up and say its their item. Or am I missing something?

@Orcus Of Undeath

That is true, but in the spirit of Tels' message, some people might be embarrassed if singled out for praise when they didn't make the top 32. I wouldn't be, but everyone's different.

[Ziv Wities]

Jacob W. Michaels wrote:

I am curious, though: What do people think about holding up items that we *like* afterward?

I'm keeping a file of a handful that made me go "ooh, that's neat." I don't think all of them are top 32 quality probably, but they appeal to me. I may add what I hope will be constructive criticism for a couple if there's something I think I see that could be slightly better, but for the most part I'd just be saying here were some of my personal favorites.

I'd see no problem with naming particular items and saying "I liked this one" or "item x was awesome," etc. Just kind of a roll call of cool names. But I wouldn't offer critique even on these, unless specifically asked. Particularly people who don't explicitly ask for critique may be somewhat raw, perceive it as a backhanded compliment, or otherwise not appreciate the public criticism, however constructive and well-intentioned.

[Magical_Beast]

If we did something like this, we would need to leave any criticism, constructive or otherwise, out of it, unless the author responded and said, "Yep, lay it on me."

It should be within Paizo's civility standards to create a 'Hats Off' thread where we can just say - "My compliments to whomever designed the Everful Ladle of Awesomesauce and the Black Shadowquill of Doom. These were two of my favorite entries."

Then the authors can accept positive vibes anonymously OR claim the items as they choose. We would want to be careful to keep it 100% positive though. Even a small criticism could wound someone to the quick if they hadn't braced for it and were still smarting from not making the Top 32.

[Coridan]

Items that do not make it will still be anonymous unless the author says "that one was mine"

[James Raine]

Jacob W. Michaels wrote:

I'm keeping a file of a handful that made me go "ooh, that's neat." I don't think all of them are top 32 quality probably, but they appeal to me. I may add what I hope will be constructive criticism for a couple if there's something I think I see that could be slightly better, but for the most part I'd just be saying here were some of my personal favorites.

GET OUT OF MY HEAD JACOB

I have a greatest hits list of my own. It's about 20 entries long at this point. They're not all superstar and not even all properly formatted, but they are items that I could find my characters using--something that I feel some items forget about.

[Aaron Miller 335]

Given the slim chance I don't make the top 32 I will post mine and ask for input.

[Warren Crowhurst]

I like your self-assurance, sir.

But yes, it really has become harder and harder for me to not start chuckling at items using any of the Phrases Guaranteed To Drive You Bonkers. Not the original intent, I'm sure.

[Garrett Guillotte]

Tels wrote:

There is a concern I have...

100% agreed. I hope many of the entries I've disliked volunteer their items to the critique thread to find out why, and I hope the threads stay civil on all sides. The point of critique threads--and on another level, Superstar--is to improve our writing and design chops, not denigrate people, their ideas, or their opinions.

But oh man I wish I could have been talking about the good items the entire time. I'd write paeans about them so joyful they'd blot out all the negativity. I LOVE the good items. But what makes them good makes them unique, which would identify them.

[Shawn Kowalke]

I agree with this thread and am very happy to have seen it created. I admit that I have voiced some negativity regarding some of the entries I've seen, but there are posts on another thread in particular that border on cruel. I am posting this comment here because I don't want to give that thread any more focus, I'd much rather just see it die.

People are commenting that certain phrases that have appeared repeatedly are driving them crazy. I feel the same way, but none of that is actually a reflection on the item, only that you've seen it in many different items. That doesn't make any of them bad items! Did you know the phrase "appears to be" occurs three times on the very first page of wondrous items in the core rulebook? Well by god ma barker! We'd better ban all those items before someone gets annoyed! Those redundant phrases are only a problem because people are scanning a few hundred items a day, but none of the people that submitted those items were looking over each others shoulders to know what anyone else was submitting. Those phrases are only a problem if they're clumsy or inaccurate descriptors. You'll have to forgive people for using phrasing that was good enough for the CRB as long as it's effective.

That's my rant, I apologize if it seems overboard, but there are a lot of posts on that thread that are far too specific, and I am very concerned with the influence they may have over people's voting.

[Magical_Beast]

Garrett Guillotte wrote:

But oh man I wish I could have been talking about the good items the entire time. I'd write paeans about them so joyful they'd blot out all the negativity. I LOVE the good items. But what makes them good makes them unique, which would identify them.

Pretty much this. Discussing the good ones would be soooo much more interesting, but they are, sort of by definition, fairly unique.

Honestly, once voting is over and I don't have to look at the entries I didn't care for anymore, there is not much appeal to dwelling on them further. Desna knows I've seen some of them far too many times already.