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Okay I have NEVER ran a shield on any character I have ever ran and have always went for a light-medium armor tops while usually wielding a greatsword, bow, or dervish dancing a scimitar. I've read most of the guides and most view the "Aegis" builds as Bodhi puts it, as subpar compared to most other options. So how effective can an Aegis build be and what classes make the best use out of it???
dunno what an aegis build is. sword and board is good at low to mid levels. in beta i had a fighter with the ac of a red dragon, but i cant for the life of me figure out how to do it with the current rules, but its ac eventually gets to the point you get hit a lot anyway.
its very effective low to mid though
TWF (Sword and Board) can be pretty effective especially if you have multiple melee combatants in your group.
Damage wise it's going to lag behind THF builds but for the most part it's a worthwhile build especially if you know when to drop the shield and just swing for high damage.
I think the key is that the bonus to AC from going sword and board really makes sense in a less optimized game due to the higher AC really negatively impacting the ability of foes to hit the Sword and Board fighter accurately and with big power attacks.
In contrast in higher challenge fights it's generally more efficient to kill you opponent before they kill you and heal up with wands after the fight. In the cases damage negation through high AC is less critical because often the foes are going to be accurate enough that your AC isn't going to matter as much.
Personally I think the Sword & Board TWF Paladin is one of the better builds available in many games because it combines good defense with self-healing and decent damage dealing capacity.
I've got less experience using old school Sword and Board build using Tower Shields and such because frankly they just seem way too defensive.
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Yeah IF I would ever build one, I would probably use a Quickdraw Light Steel Shield and never a Tower Shield. Are spikes a must and the only real way to deal extra damage or are they just preferred on most shields? Also what feats do people use. I'm normally wanting to pump out as much damage as possible but if someone in the group builds an effective enough damage dealer then I may decide to tank it.
I present Ezra Scarlet Acadia VI.
She isn't optimized by any means, but she is still pretty potent. & is only at level 12. At level 15 she becomes somewhat insane.
Depends on the playstyle of your group. Sword and board has less powergaming potential for a fighter (especially if you don't go TWF) than other paths, and you won't often see it with someone other than a fighter or possibly paladin because it also sucks a lot of feats. So if your group tends towards high system mastery and powerful combinations, you may not want to pursue the non TWF route as a fighter. It can be okay for a paladin or ranger, though I tend to think it's not the best for the former - a paladin's defenses are already so good that he doesn't really need to go for a shield.
If you do go TWF, sword and board TWF can put together some mean full attacks, but is probably the most feat-intensive combat style of them all (so you'll want to be a fighter, no paladins accepted). It used to be one of the more popular fighter options, but since APG new powers for other fighter styles (two-hander in particular), and other classes eclipsing the fighter in melee in general have kind of pushed that out of the optimization limelight so you don't hear about it as much any more.
It's not the best thing on the block anymore, but it's still pretty good. There are some old fighter guides kicking around that can show you how it is done. Rogue Eidolon's guide is probably still available.
Personally I don't really find shield spikes to be particularly worthwhile as an investment as you end up having to enhance your primary weapon, you shield and then shield spikes. It's a pricey investment.
I think just doing shield slams with the light shield and working towards shield master at +11 BAB is the better solution. Yeah your DPR will dip off vs an shield spike variant but I think the cost savings is worthwhile.
The main problem I see with the TWF build is the initial investment in TWF at 15 Dex is pretty heavy which makes this a more viable build at high point buy values.
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I like the Ray Shield feat, because deflecting rays seems pretty useful. And because it requires the Spellbreaker feat, it would be good on an anti-caster fighter, but could also be interesting on an Arcane Duelist bard.
I find it stupid that you can't bash with a Tower Shield despite that fact that the Romans did it constantly...
And Rangers are crazy with Sword & Board TWF. Especially if you use the Two-Weapon Combat Style. It takes longer for Shield Master, but it can be even more potent in the long run.
The key with a shield build is knowing when not to use it.
Generally, if you have one or two of the TWF feats, that's fine. TWF with a shield isn't going to be a focus of the build.
You generally want to build towards an Uber Shield: +5 Bashing, w +5 Defending Shield spikes. That works to 108k, and is a d8 or 2-12 dmg weapon, with no penalty for off hand use if you have SHield Mastery. Just a little more then the price of a +7 weapon...but when active with Shield Focus, gives you +12-+13 AC...because you can Wield a Shield without having to use it as a weapon, unlike other weapons using Defender.
If you are fighting something it's better to kill, however, you should just THW your bastard or long sword (ideal weapon, Sun Sword) and just kill the enemy.
Weakness of the build is largely the many ways to get around Shield AC. In 3.5, you could get Shield Ward at level 6, which meant your shield worked against touch attacks and all sorts of combat manuvers, and a boost to reflex saves, i.e. no avoiding your shield. With an Augment Gem of Missile deflection, you got another +5 AC vs ranged attacks...you were basically immune to ranged fire.
But the twins of fort saves and will saves bypassed the shield, so unless you had some way of getting saves to the moon, you'd get wiped that way. Hence why Paladins are usually sword and board types...they have the saves to actually do the 'tank' role better, vs a Fighter.
The downsides of Shield using are already noted above: Having to pay for the bloody thing, the bane of all TWF builds; lesser damage then just THF with a Greatsword; feat costs are intense; spec/training benefits don't accrue to shield and main weapon together; and numerous ways around the shield.
==Aelryinth
The Sacred Shield archetype for paladins might be good for a shield focused character. One of the problem some times cited again the sword and board style is that because your AC is so high, GM's would switch focus to squishier characters like your casters. Sacred shield replaces smite evil in order to cut the damage done to allies within 10 feat by half. This would be perfect for flanking range on medium characters (meaning that the rogue will love you) and you can guard the caster while they go about toying with the laws of physics. You also give up channel energy in order to give allies near you a shield bonus (again, good for defending the caster).
There are also various feats and traits that serve similar purposes. The paladin was just the first that came to mind.
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I find it stupid that you can't bash with a Tower Shield despite that fact that the Romans did it constantly...
And Rangers are crazy with Sword & Board TWF. Especially if you use the Two-Weapon Combat Style. It takes longer for Shield Master, but it can be even more potent in the long run.
A bash is using a shield as a weapon. You can't do that with a tower shield.
At the end of Gladiator, the soldiers come running in with tower shields, and literally form a six foot high wall around the emperor and Maximus. Those are tower shields.
The one maximus used to hit with was a large shield...shoulder to knee is about the size.
If you're talking about locking shields and charging, in D@D that is a Bull Rush or Overrun by a line of men. So you can PUSH with tower shields...you can't BASH with them.
==Aelryinth
@Aelryinth: You are right about Maximus's Shield. But The Romans would Shield Bash. Now it wasn't like that Asinine Cinematic One where you slam them with the Rim of the Shield. It was you putting your weight behind the Shield and (More or Less) Body Slamming your enemy.
Trust me I know military tactics especially Hellenistic Era Tactica. They used the Shield Bash to knock their enemies off balance then used their Gladius in a Piston Action while advancing to stab into the now off-balanced soldier. It is one of the reasons why the Roman Legionary were feared. They knew how to best use their shield and blade together.
I have played several sword and board characters in different campaigns. The damage is not as high as a two-handed swinging for the fences, but the output can still be strong if you follow the regular tips for achieving it. I find that avoiding a hit or two in certain battles will be the difference between success and failure.
Sword and board just like all TWF shines when there is added sources of on hit damage. this is why paladin makes just good use of it. Smite evil benefits greatly from more hits per round.
An inquisitor with the double bane feat also could make good use of it. Heck even a shield rogue seems like a interesting idea.
While ranger is lucky enough to get shield master very early since they have no source of on hit damage unless they are fighting favored enemies I find it hard to recommend. Sure the instant enemy spell helps but its pretty limited use per day.
The TWF Feat Chain is really all that is needed if that is all you want.
If you want to constantly have a shield then look at my build for a list of most of the feats.
I present Ezra Scarlet Acadia VI.
She isn't optimized by any means, but she is still pretty potent. & is only at level 12. At level 15 she becomes somewhat insane.
and now i'm hearing the fairy tail theme.
small mention: your 'class abilities' section mentions "his" in the doublestrike description.
and now i'm hearing the fairy tail theme.I present Ezra Scarlet Acadia VI.
She isn't optimized by any means, but she is still pretty potent. & is only at level 12. At level 15 she becomes somewhat insane.
Actually, I came up with the name well before I started reading Fairy Tail. Though this build was loosely inspired by Erza Knightwalker...
Originally, she was going to use a Shortspear instead of a Longsword. The Shield was going to be Mocked up as a heavier piece of armour that fits around her arm covering and immobilizing her hand and was used as a Shield.
The reason for the slip is I was in a hurry and just copied and pasted the description from the archetype with a little editing and forgot to go back and fix it. I also forgot it in Defensive Flurry.
and now i'm hearing the fairy tail theme.I present Ezra Scarlet Acadia VI.
She isn't optimized by any means, but she is still pretty potent. & is only at level 12. At level 15 she becomes somewhat insane.
Actually, I came up with the name well before I started reading Fairy Tail. Though this build was loosely inspired by Erza Knightwalker...
Originally, she was going to use a Shortspear instead of a Longsword. The Shield was going to be Mocked up as a heavier piece of armour that fits around her arm covering and immobilizing her hand and was used as a Shield.
The reason for the slip is I was in a hurry and just copied and pasted the description from the archetype with a little editing and forgot to go back and fix it.
i meant that as a compliment; that theme is awesome. Your background is also wildly different, so I'm in no way seeing it as an expy or anything.
In pathfinder society, I got a shield using fighter up to level 4. I probably should have been going for two weapon fighting feats, but at that level, I did fine without shield bashing. It was just a lot of fun, because nobody else who ever shows up had ever tried to make a character with high AC. Everybody was double checking it since they couldn't believe it was so high, especially the frustrated GM. I was in a party with two level fours, and they still had me opening doors at level 1. It probably wouldn't be that great eventually, since I was taking feats kind of aimlessly(like Shield spec, weapon spec, weapon focus, toughness, Iron Will, and dodge), but it was only my second character ever.
I don't know about the long term, but attacks plinking harmlessly off your armor on the regular is satisfying.
i meant that as a compliment; that theme is awesome. Your background is also wildly different, so I'm in no way seeing it as an expy or anything.
I haven't got a chance to watch the anime yet... But I immediately bookmarked the song just for the sound...
My kind of music!
Sword and Board is fantastic for versatility. You can use the shield to protect yourself, of course, but you can decide, on the fly, to switch to two-weapon fighting.
It also allows for some utility against DR. If you're careful, you can cover bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing, without changing weapons.
Most characters would have to lose a turn to put away the current, and draw a new weapon, but not you.
And, if you've got a one-handed weapon, you can always stow the shield, and swing the weapon with both hands.
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It's especially good in PFS, because the other players change. If you are the only front line fighter, use the shield. If you're melee heavy or healer heavy, forget the shield to do more damage faster.
Animated Shield release it and then Two-Hand your Longsword/Bastard Sword while keeping your Shield Bonus.
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Holy Vindicators get decent use out of their sheilds. Going Paladin -> Holy Vindicator is probably the best way to do it, since the Paladin's saves make it the best at "tanking" as someone already said, and then the Vindicator levels let you Channel Energy through it.
Cavaliers could probably pull it off too. Their Challenge makes them decent TWF'ers, and they have full BAB and bonus combat feats so the style suits them.
Sword and Board is fantastic for versatility. You can use the shield to protect yourself, of course, but you can decide, on the fly, to switch to two-weapon fighting.
It also allows for some utility against DR. If you're careful, you can cover bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing, without changing weapons.
Most characters would have to lose a turn to put away the current, and draw a new weapon, but not you.
And, if you've got a one-handed weapon, you can always stow the shield, and swing the weapon with both hands.
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It's especially good in PFS, because the other players change. If you are the only front line fighter, use the shield. If you're melee heavy or healer heavy, forget the shield to do more damage faster.
or if youre going for a "lighter" build w/ a buckler, you can simply eat the -1 (no penalty at all once you get mithral) and two-hand it anyway.
though only the rondelero duelist fighter (2nd level ability) gets to shield bash with a buckler (that i can find, anyway), so it'd be moving away from the TWF route and more towards a slightly more defensive free-hand or THF setup for anyone not a rondelero
Okay I have NEVER ran a shield on any character I have ever ran and have always went for a light-medium armor tops while usually wielding a greatsword, bow, or dervish dancing a scimitar. I've read most of the guides and most view the "Aegis" builds as Bodhi puts it, as subpar compared to most other options. So how effective can an Aegis build be and what classes make the best use out of it???
Please understand that I consider Aegis builds subpar for paladins (even the Sacred Shield archetype or the Holy Vindicator prestige class); mostly due to the feat-intensive nature of the build and the fact that clever GMs will avoid your character and go for easier prey. However, they can work out quite well if you have the feats to spare, and fighters often do.
Happy gaming!
All in all, the best classes seem to be:
Fighter, Ranger, and well... Maybe a Shield Wall or such Cavalier.
Thunderstriker?
Well I just found my next build... Well after my "Ajax The Great, Myrmidon Officer" Build...
@Aelryinth: You are right about Maximus's Shield. But The Romans would Shield Bash. Now it wasn't like that Asinine Cinematic One where you slam them with the Rim of the Shield. It was you putting your weight behind the Shield and (More or Less) Body Slamming your enemy.
Trust me I know military tactics especially Hellenistic Era Tactica. They used the Shield Bash to knock their enemies off balance then used their Gladius in a Piston Action while advancing to stab into the now off-balanced soldier. It is one of the reasons why the Roman Legionary were feared. They knew how to best use their shield and blade together.
Aza, you do realize you just perfectly described a bull rush and overrun to strike at a prone foe, right? A shield bash is a KILLING STROKE, not a push. It's using the shield as a weapon, not to just shove them around.
Also note, the Legion didn't use Tower Shields in a line...they used square shields that went shoulder to knee...classic infantry large shield.
==Aelryinth
I've seen a paladin with sword & board TWF kick serious ass from first level to fourteenth level. When you take Shield Master you count your shield's enhancement bonus as a weapon bonus, add bashing and shield spikes (they stack) and you are doing very serious damage on a smite. It works almost as well for any other combat character that can use a shield.
Wait I guess we should clarify.
Are we talking Elite or Basic Legionary.
And I am not saying a prone foe. It would be they would knock the persons shield and such out of the way and then stab them.
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TY Dabbler, I was about to say that while my pally isn't the one Dabbler saw, I have a 7th lvl 2WF pally with sword and board and I pretty much wreck everything the party gets handed.
Of course, I still believe there is nothing wrong with the Monk and Rogue, I like blaster wizard/sorc builds and think they are very very useful in combat, I think Clerics should cast heal spells and channel to heal in combat, and I think its possible to combine optimization and RP, so its obvious I'm playing the game wrong.
;)
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The feat that really kicks TWF shield users into overdrive is shield mastery. Enchant the shield as a +5 defending weapon and +5 shield. Transfer all the weapon bonus as AC. Shield bash and use the shield enhancement bonus. Yeah super pricey I admit...but you can do lesser versions of this as you level up...and only available 11+ anyways. I actually really like TWF sword and board.
The +5 Shield of Bashing/+5 Defender Shield is 108k...about the same price as +10 armor, and you actually get +10 AC out of it!
Aza, that's the description of a disarm manuver (knocking a shield out of the way).
Roman legionnaires were generally badass because they were fighters 3-4 going up against warriors/2. Everything looks easier at that point.
==Aelryinth
I've considered building a fighter who uses a shield and whip, with armor spikes as a backup. With the basic TWF and whip feats, you would have a combination of close and reach weapons, and Shield Slam giving you free actions to bull rush enemies back out to reach.
Shield bashes and armor spikes are both in the same group for Weapon Training, so you'd be quite good at normal, TWF, non-reach combat. It's also easy to switch to two whips for other situations, giving you TWF at 15' of reach. By having the ability to direct a full round attack at anything within 15' (or within 20' by adding a 5' step) you should be able to get full attacks in more often than a typical melee combatant.
At first, I struggled with the image of someone using heavy armor, a shield, and a whip. But, when you add spikes all over everything, it gets better:)
Hellenistic War Methods fit more with Shield Slam and TWF. Alongside the Phalanx Fighter Archetype.