As I said later a group of enemies fighting with all the resources at their disposal can easily last 15 rounds. or damn near it.
An optimized group is more than just characters.
@wraithstrike: Level 3. Goblins with Goblin Dogs as the basic foes. The boss encounter is with a Goblin Oracle & Sorcerer led by a Orc Fighter. Boss Battle is CR 7.
First 2 encounters are with some Goblins in an outpost. they are easy encounters.
The next few encounters are against squads of Goblins who use the terrain of their village to force the party to use synergy to win.
When the Party makes it to the Boss Encounter they have to deal with the Oracle & Sorcerer buffing the Orc who is built for dealing and taking damage.
And only the boss fight "might" go 15 rounds.
Many of use also dont use APL+4 until the party is at a higher level.
Those 2 goblins are not lasting 15 rounds. 1 party member can probably kill them by himself.
A smart party will also deal with the casters first once they realize they are casters. If they can find a way to get to them without making too much noise those buffs may never take place. In any event having those summons eat up attacks while the casters are taken down should be the order of things. The fighter should be saved for last.
At higher levels this encounter just gets easier since offense scales faster than AC, and the NPC does not have PC wealth to boost his AC.
The goblins come in waves timed for 15 rounds each.
The village is laid out in a Block and Line pattern. The Grenades are used more as a mine. Remember it takes 3 rounds to detonate.
The goblins fight smart but not like a Human would. They let the dogs hold the party off and then ambush the party opening on the first PC they find. If used with even the basic level of aggressive Tactics that animals have you can draw them out to around 15 rounds.
In my case: The first 2 guard patrol encounters were done in 13 & 12 rounds. The other tended to run to around 14-16 rounds. The Boss Encounter lasted 23 rounds with the Oracle going down first then the Sorcerer.
This was with a Dwarves Fighter, Human Rogue, Human Cleric, and Elven Wizard.
The challenge is to get similar or better results with 2 druids and 2 Clerics.
For those who really want to know the Tactics I used for the goblins were that of the Goths when they fought in their camps. This is by no means near the high level of terrain manipulation that is present in a Tucker's Kobolds encounter.
The end HP of the PCs:
Fighter 3
Rogue 1
Wizard 0(even)
Cleric 2
What saved them was the Wizard using a Wand of Infernal Healing.
LOL @15 round encounters. I've certainly got better things to do with my time than slog through four hour encounters.
As far as "casters" having any trouble surviving in a party of nothing but casters, heck as long as just ONE of them is a cleric, I'd be more than happy to give it a try.
Four druids would kick the doors down. Four clerics would be virtually unkillable.
Four wizards would have some difficulty with low hit points and lack of healing. However, it may be hard to believe for many players of this game, but wizards actually CAN wear armor and the penalties for wearing armor are not nearly as bad as people assume them to be. So a party of four armor wearing wizards could survive more than many would expect them to.
Four level 1 wizards would likely have 8 level 1 spells in their repertoire. Plus unlimited cantrips and the ability to use normal weapons like bows, swords, slings, staves, etc.
If the wizard party needed to cast two first level spells per encounter (that's a lot for a first level party) then they could handle four encounters per day before running out of spells. Or three encounters plus one encounter where they fire off four first level spells.
That sounds pretty survivable to me. Not guaranteed, not a walk in the park like the druids or clerics would be... but survivable.
And then they hit level 2 and suddenly they've got 12 level 1 spells to get through the day. Then they hit level 3 and they've got 12 level 1 spells and 8 level 2 spells. At that point it's game over for the wizard party. They'll crush the opposition.
Eh, my party of murder hobos would kill any goblin warrior as soon as it came into LoS with 1 hit/spell/hex. The last fight might be hard, but honestly I've thrown worse at them (a CR=APL+7, and they finished legacy of fire at level 13 when the the final is supposed to be 15, and I used a CR 20 version of the final boss).
The 15 round waves would translate into 4 rounds of combat (being charitable here) followed by 11 rounds of standing around or search and destroy pattern running.
The boss fight would be a comedy of the fighter getting stuck in Save or Suck hell (complements of the bard and/or witch), while the battle cleric, and ninja slaughters both of the casters in 2 rounds or so (high DPR ability on all of them).
This is priceless. Especially given the fact that this camp is based on a Goth Warcamp with Goth Tactics.
There is a reason why Rome fell to an army Half (or less) the size of their army. And the Romans were deemed the most efficient army in all of history. Anyone who really believes that needs was slapped and shown how to fight in tight spaces.
*snip*
The challenge is to get similar or better results with 2 druids and 2 Clerics.
*Snip*
What Point buy?
Well mine was using a 20 PBS.
Azaelas, as far as I know, Goths never actually fought against enemies capable of making large numbers of Goths fall asleep, be stunned or blinded simply by waggling their fingers and mumbling a few words. So I wouldn't put much faith in Goth tactics vs a party of spellcasters.
You are assuming that the party is going to fight the way you expect them to. If they do so, then your pre-planned tactics might work. But your assumption is like most battle plans, meaning the plan will likely not last long once the battle is engaged.
The goblins come in waves timed for 15 rounds each.
The village is laid out in a Block and Line pattern. The Grenades are used more as a mine. Remember it takes 3 rounds to detonate.
The goblins fight smart but not like a Human would. They let the dogs hold the party off and then ambush the party opening on the first PC they find. If used with even the basic level of aggressive Tactics that animals have you can draw them out to around 15 rounds.
In my case: The first 2 guard patrol encounters were done in 13 & 12 rounds. The other tended to run to around 14-16 rounds. The Boss Encounter lasted 23 rounds with the Oracle going down first then the Sorcerer.
This was with a Dwarves Fighter, Human Rogue, Human Cleric, and Elven Wizard.
The challenge is to get similar or better results with 2 druids and 2 Clerics.
For those who really want to know the Tactics I used for the goblins were that of the Goths when they fought in their camps. This is by no means near the high level of terrain manipulation that is present in a Tucker's Kobolds encounter.
The end HP of the PCs:
Fighter 3
Rogue 1
Wizard 0(even)
Cleric 2What saved them was the Wizard using a Wand of Infernal Healing.
Waves of goblins are not a CR 1 fight just because you bring them out 2 or 3 goblins at a time so CR 1 fights are still not taking 15 rounds. What you would have are multiple CR 1 fights taking 15 rounds. The rogue most likely has a lower AC than the druid or cleric, and he can't heal himself.
A properly place entangle spell can make things a lot easier for the party of Codzillas.
Now I am curious about how your group plays if they know they are outnumbered, but dont think to reduce the enemy's chances to overwhelm them with numbers.
I still dont see how the goblins and goblin dog are lasting 15 rounds. If the dogs engage in melee they get surrounded and hacked up. They should be dead by the time the goblins engage in melee. If the goblins stay back with ranged attacks then they get attacked in return, possibly charged if there is no difficult terrain. If there is difficult terrain a fighter would also have trouble catching up to them until he crosses the terrain.
"The mark of a true "God of War" is the ability to plan for everything including the impossible. As such we are trained to only plan a few steps ahead of our foe. So that in doing so we can adapt to anything they can throw at us. His mistake was placing to much faith in his powers as a God." - Odysseus to Ajax & Achilles, in response to be called a greater Tactician than Ares himself.
I don't pre-plan anything other than starting locations. People are easy to manipulate into traps. All it takes is luring them into over-confidence.
This is priceless. Especially given the fact that this camp is based on a Goth Warcamp with Goth Tactics.
There is a reason why Rome fell to an army Half (or less) the size of their army. And the Romans were deemed the most efficient army in all of history. Anyone who really believes that needs was slapped and shown how to fight in tight spaces.
I have no trouble making 4 level 1 characters, and running this simulation online. I know it won't be a 15 round fight to take out 2 goblins, and 1 goblin dog, which is probably closer to APL+1 aka CR 2.
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"The mark of a true "God of War" is the ability to plan for everything including the impossible. As such we are trained to only plan a few steps ahead of our foe. So that in doing so we can adapt to anything they can throw at us. His mistake was placing to much faith in his powers as a God." - Odysseus to Ajax & Achilles, in response to be called a greater Tactician than Ares himself.
I don't pre-plan anything other than starting locations. People are easy to manipulate into traps. All it takes is luring them into over-confidence.
LOL, man I just wish I had the chance to put your messageboard bravado to the test Azaelas. You crack me up.
This is priceless. Especially given the fact that this camp is based on a Goth Warcamp with Goth Tactics.
There is a reason why Rome fell to an army Half (or less) the size of their army. And the Romans were deemed the most efficient army in all of history. Anyone who really believes that needs was slapped and shown how to fight in tight spaces.
Eh, post division Rome is hardly what you call the best that Rome had to offer. The good parts of the army were elsewhere, and Valens was hardly a military man.
I hadn't realized that the Romans outnumbered the Goths at Adrianople by that much. The accounts I've read was maybe 25% difference in forces.
Regardless, the goblins that you are detailing are playing light infantry tactics in a confined space. Vs what most likely are superior armed and armored PCs. This is without having significant numerical advantage. My PCs would have little problem dealing with this at 3rd level. Not even hard TBH.
Actually this was at Level 3. At least try to pay attention when trying to argue. Especially since level 3 is giving you a pass at the hell you would face at level 1 & 2.
The party of four in my example were heavily optimized. The only enemies that were optimized were the Bosses.
Actually this was at Level 3. At least try to pay attention when trying to argue. Especially since level 3 is giving you a pass at the hell you would face at level 1 & 2.
The party of four in my example were heavily optimized. The only enemies that were optimized were the Bosses.
I'd take just about the lamest party of level 3 characters you could imagine and go against this scenario Azaelas. I'd certainly take four level 3 wizards against your Goth Goblins.
Four level 3 druids would probably be more likely to die from laughter.
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I am thinking his players are subpar in their abilities to build and use characters if an APL=CR fight is taking 15 rounds. If a dog holds the "party" off for even 3 rounds something is wrong.
I would like for him to give a round by round account before I am 100% convinced that his players need a class in Tactics 101 and Character Building 101.
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"The mark of a true "God of War" is the ability to plan for everything including the impossible. As such we are trained to only plan a few steps ahead of our foe. So that in doing so we can adapt to anything they can throw at us. His mistake was placing to much faith in his powers as a God." - Odysseus to Ajax & Achilles, in response to be called a greater Tactician than Ares himself.
I don't pre-plan anything other than starting locations. People are easy to manipulate into traps. All it takes is luring them into over-confidence.
or not describing things, bad perception checks abound, and having access to unlimited waves of intelligent little blighters to kill everyone.
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Couldn't find any links describing Goth tactics. Anyone got one?
I think it mostly involves lots of body piercings, tattoos, spiky fluorescent hair and yards and yards of black cloth...
Couldn't find any links describing Goth tactics. Anyone got one?
Nope, not that it matters. I dont think this guy has discovered anything that no other poster would have noticed over the past 12 years of the game.
I am still waiting for the details on an APL=CR taking 15 rounds.
One more nondescript post and I am pulling the "T" card.
Actually this was at Level 3. At least try to pay attention when trying to argue. Especially since level 3 is giving you a pass at the hell you would face at level 1 & 2.
The party of four in my example were heavily optimized. The only enemies that were optimized were the Bosses.
It won't matter. Two more levels will not give you 15 rounds.
Couldn't find any links describing Goth tactics. Anyone got one?Nope, not that it matters. I dont think this guy has discovered anything that no other poster would have noticed over the past 12 years of the game.
I am still waiting for the details on an APL=CR taking 15 rounds.
One more nondescript post and I am pulling the "T" card.
Heh, I've called the "BS" card on Azaelas before. I'd call it here but there's no way to definitively prove anything without actually sitting down and playing the scenario out. Otherwise he will just obfuscate and dissemble until you just get tired of trying to make sense of his comments, and then he'll declare victory.
And yet the Goths actually wore bright colours until they went to war in which they wore earth tones. Primarily Green/Grey and Brown.
The Gothic culture in modern times is based on the Goths Funeral decorum. In which black signified death as it was connected to the Raven/Crow. And it is one of the most Asinine things I have seen Humanity Create. Right up there with the American Political Structure.
15 round encounters? Hahaha. Ahahahah. Hah.
Yeah, those happen when I combine four encounters from an AP into one single big combat and new combatants enter the fray throughout the combat. Otherwise PCs will kill everything in sight in six to ten rounds at the lowest levels ( because they can't reliably hit things yet ) or two to three rounds at high levels.
Seriously, 15 rounds for a standard encounter. Pshshshsh.
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Well to add my thoughts on the wizard sorry to cut through your guys flow I am lovin it. The wizard of PF is far better then 3.5 you dont have to stay as a universal wiz to use all spells you specialize and you can still use the spells of your "forbidden" school albeit at a higher slot and you can get some amazing abilities (evocation being a personal fav.) overall they didnt get a huge buff up but I think the wizards choices make far more since now.
In some cases IMO a specialized wiz makes the sorcerer not needed in a party.
What do you mean 'some'?
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well the free magic missles come to mind (evoc wiz)they also get bonuses to evoc spells and also get free spells as they lvl up if you build the wiz with a object as there "familiar" then the also get a free spell that they can cast once a day and it doesnt have to be a memeorized one either.
I dont have my books with me im at work so i cant list all the monuses but these are the ones i remember.
Oh, I wasn't contesting that. I meant to suggest that 'some' is too conservative an estimate.
Sorcerers may not be as good as Wizards ( though I think it depends on the campaign ), but still better than most other classes. So, nyeh. ;)
I can tell from my own experience as a GM in two campaigns, that having a Wizard and a Sorcerer ( with the rest of the group being well rounded out ) is hell on wheels for the opposing forces.
Heh, I've called the "BS" card on Azaelas before. I'd call it here but there's no way to definitively prove anything without actually sitting down and playing the scenario out. Otherwise he will just obfuscate and dissemble until you just get tired of trying to make sense of his comments, and then he'll declare victory.Couldn't find any links describing Goth tactics. Anyone got one?Nope, not that it matters. I dont think this guy has discovered anything that no other poster would have noticed over the past 12 years of the game.
I am still waiting for the details on an APL=CR taking 15 rounds.
One more nondescript post and I am pulling the "T" card.
I think he just earned the T card. If he comes back with details someone send me a PM. :)
Wraithstike,
I am running a version of it tonight. If you want I can post the results in a new thread.
Back to the title of the thread...
The only time that Pathfinder wizards are arguably less powerful and more vulnerable than other casting classes is at very, very low levels. I'd say levels 1 and 2, but you might argue level 3. After that wizards are the equal of any caster and by level 7 they are cosmic reality altering demi-gods.
And even then, Pathfinder wizards are significantly more survivable and powerful than 3.5 wizards. They have more hit points, can cast unlimited cantrips and can take archetypes or wizard school specialties that give them options beyond a "pure" wizard.
You can argue, and some have, that wizards received fewer increases and were nerfed more strongly than other casters, but I would argue that the caster class that was beaten and bruised most thoroughly by the nerf bat was the druid. And I play a PF druid that was converted from a 3.5 druid and as much as I miss the awesome powers of 3.5 druids, I am still more than happy with the options, power and flexibility of Pathfinder druids.
At the highest levels wizards probably are still the ultimate power kings of the game. Clerics are probably second, and then you probably have some of the PF specific classes like witch and oracle. Then druid.
Then you have all the non-full casters.
You sound pretty confident against Goth goblins. What about Emo goblins or Hipster goblins?
My group was fighting goblins before it was cool. Now we fight a lot of Ansher Nightshrieks. You might not have heard of them.
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The goblins come in waves timed for 15 rounds each.
"Alright, I send out the first two goblin warriors... and then after the PC's kill them I wait twelve rounds, then send out the other two..."
At first level, four druids plus 4 animal companions are as close to an "I Win" button as you can get, especially if they have access to the entire animal companion list and can choose dinosaurs.
The main thing is that most of the auto-win spells present in core have been significantly toned down. Most of the skill replacement spells give bonuses rather than auto-wins vs skill challenges, most monsters are somewhat more resistant to SoL tactics due to significant revisions to the bestiary, etc.
There have been some sketchy spells added in some of the later splatbooks that have brought back in some I win tactics but for the most part the spell list has been somewhat effectively nerfed.
There are definitely some big game changer spells that have been retained and wizards generally have the best access to those game changers (divination, imp invis, teleport, overland flight, etc) but the overall advantage in the spell list is less than was present in 3.5.
In return the wizard got a bunch of nice bonuses especially related to improved durability as ability scores are generally higher, improved HD, and some at-will casting of cantrips.
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@Kimera757:
Wait a minute, PF rules no longer hold that an items bonus to a stat, INT for example, is bonus * 3? In other words, i believe 3.5ED made it so that a stat boosting item followed this progression:
+1= 3rd level
+2= 6th level
+3= 9th level
+4= 12th level
+5= 15th level
+6= 18th level
That's no longer the case? I agree, if the rules changed that drastically, that's a problem. At best, 8-9th level characters should be around the +3 range with +4 for around 12th. My only other option at that point would be to simply inform the player that his/her character level is insufficient for that powerful an item.
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stuff1) Why 'should' they? I think this whole obsession with balance is entirely due to mmos. I really don't remember there being such an outcry over balance back in the day, and it was far, far worse. In literature, powerful wizards are scary, immensely powerful things. Novice wizards, not so much-- they are basically commoners who have some innate potential, but can't do much of anything yet. Trying to establish this perfect balance across the entire level spectrum is one of the biggest faults of 4e.
Numerical balance shouldn't be the goal imo. The goal should be classes that are compelling to play, and for the most part they succeeded-- Not everyone that sits at a table wants to play a wizard. Some even want to play bards. This isn't to say that some of the classes couldn't use some love, or that math should be completely neglected, but the pursuit of perfect balance should really not be the goal.
I tend to agree. I started my 2ED days as a fighter and never looked back. It wasn't until 3.x that i even considered playing a wizard. You can't approach PF and games like it with the idea of MMO balance. One reason i disliked 4thED was that it felt like a book form MMO without the monthly subscription. Everyone has preferences for what they enjoy playing and great, roll with it.
I wouldn't be overly enthusiastic about balancing to the point that everyone is doing roughly the exact same amount of damage or healing. That smacks of a very boring game where the Ranger with a bow does the same damage as a Rogue who does the same damage as a fighter all the time as examples.