Hello and thanks for taking the time to read this. I am starting a game in the new year with only 2 PCs, I will be GM. The three of us are all fairly new to the game, only a few sessions actual play experience, though I have read a whole lot.
I was wondering if anyone has any tips or things to look out for when running a 2 PC party. Should i really be looking hard to add another player or will it work out ok? Can I use modules with 2 people or will it require alot of adjustments? (I currently own the 3rd level Feast of Ravenmoor and 5th level City of Golden Death) Are there any APs suitable for a party of 2? I am really leaning against running a GMPC, but I might let them hire help from time to time.
Background info that I have so far:
20pt buy High Fantasy, standard advancement.
PCs will be a Rogue (CG or NG) and a Paladin.
I was planning on starting them at level 3 to avoid the super squishy first levels and account for there only being 2 of them.
This is a Golarion game, and they will be starting in Sandpoint since that is the city i am most familiar with.
The rogue player wants to start some sort of business in game with the paladin as his business partner (a la Acquisitions Incorporated).
I haven't had a chance to sit down with the pally to discuss his deity or code yet. I'm going to nudge him towards the oaths I think as i feel like that kind of provides a framework to build your code around and it gives me a starting point for adventure hooks.
Is the lack of a magic user a real problem or can it be sufficiently mitigated by the rogue having a really good UMD?
Any ideas for how and why i can bring a paladin and a rogue together? I don't want the rogue to constantly sneak around doing his unlawful (but not evil) things so that the paladin dosen't have to imprison him. Greater good argument as long as the rogue is not hurting anyone?
I'm thinking that some urban adventuring would work nicely for 2 players, any suggestions? Magnimar is a likely destination, it provides lots of "evil" for the paladin to oppose and a underground market for the rogue to play in.
Any other suggestions you guys might have are also appreciated. Thanks!
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KatoCha04's advice is good.
I think your plan for starting them out at 3rd level is good. Having only 2 players can be allot of fun. They both get lots of attention and can do lots of things they normally wouldn't be able to do, like start a business, which roots them in your setting.
A 3rd PC would be helpful. When I've run two players, I create a bunch of great NPCs for the PC's to interact with, and see which ones become friends or occasional companions. That NPC can be the 3rd character.
Any ideas for how and why i can bring a paladin and a rogue together? I don't want the rogue to constantly sneak around doing his unlawful (but not evil) things so that the paladin dosen't have to imprison him. Greater good argument as long as the rogue is not hurting anyone?
I'm thinking that some urban adventuring would work nicely for 2 players, any suggestions? Magnimar is a likely destination, it provides lots of "evil" for...
They could be brothers, cousins, ophans, or childhood friends.
I was wondering if anyone has any tips or things to look out for when running a 2 PC party. Should i really be looking hard to add another player or will it work out ok? Can I use modules with 2 people or will it require alot of adjustments? (I currently own the 3rd level Feast of Ravenmoor and 5th level City of Golden Death) Are there any APs suitable for a party of 2? I am really leaning against running a GMPC, but I might let them hire help from time to time.
Prewritten modules with a 2 person party will be challenging. The modules assume a party of 4 with a certain set of skills. If you dont have those you will have make lots of adjustements. There is no simple way to do this, you would just have to play it by ear. But, there are alot of ways to adjust what your pcs are capable of so 2 people can work.
Background info that I have so far:
20pt buy High Fantasy, standard advancement.
PCs will be a Rogue (CG or NG) and a Paladin.
Paladin is a good choice for a 2 person party, rogue is not. I would recommend the inquisitor or a bard in its place. You only have 2 people and the highly specific and in many ways limited skill set of the rogue will be a real issue.
That said, you can try something a little different. Its called Gestalt characters. You can google it as its in the d20 hypertext for 3.5 and it works just as well for pathfinder. Basically you can have 2 classes worth of abilities in one character. So you could have say a paladin/cleric, and a rogue/wizard. This would fill out the basic abilities needed for a typical module. And while this wont completely eliminate the small party size it will go a long way toward helping.
I was planning on starting them at level 3 to avoid the super squishy first levels and account for there only being 2 of them.
Good idea.
This is a Golarion game, and they will be starting in Sandpoint since that is the city i am most familiar with.
The rogue player wants to start some sort of business in game with the paladin as his business partner (a la Acquisitions Incorporated).
I haven't had a chance to sit down with the pally to discuss his deity or code yet. I'm going to nudge him towards the oaths I think as i feel like that kind of provides a framework to build your code around and it gives me a starting point for adventure hooks.
Is the lack of a magic user a real problem or can it be sufficiently mitigated by the rogue having a really good UMD?
UMD wont mitigate the lack of a caster. There are certain things a rogue cant do no matter how good his umd is, like identify magic items for instance. Its one of the reasons I thing going gestalt is among the better ways to deal with a small party.
Any ideas for how and why i can bring a paladin and a rogue together? I don't want the rogue to constantly sneak around doing his unlawful (but not evil) things so that the paladin dosen't have to imprison him. Greater good argument as long as the rogue is not hurting anyone?
Well a good rogue and a paladin can work fairly well together. Just make sure the paladin isnt playing 'lawful stupid' and isnt a jerk about his stance on the law, and make sure there is a clear enemy in front of them they are working against together, to have that 'greater good' mitigator in place right away. With just 2 players i'd recommend making the villain personal. Really tailor it to the characters goals.
So in addition to the above I would offer a suggestion of running a dm-npc to help fill out the party. A witch with the healing patron would do nicely for this party. If you did just that, and let the players have say a 25 point buy, you could probably use published material without many changes. But if you want it to just be about the 2 players then I strongly recommend looking at the gestalt rules.
Thanks for all the advice guys. I'll address a couple of things.
3rd players isnt going to happen for the time being, we will start with 2 and maybe add a 3rd when we have gotten the campaign rolling.
25pt buy is in, thanks KatoCha04.
I have confidence the pally isn't going to be lawful stupid. He is a bright guy and a writer, wants to develop his character.
A DMPC won't be happening, I want the focus to be on the players. At most i will go with Mazlith's suggestion. Many, many NPCs, maybe they can recruit them on occasion, but they are not to become full on party members.
I am liking more and more the gestalt option (especially since i can build a gestalt BBEG). Ive read the rules for gestalts and was worried it would be too much for my players. I will have to check with them, they might prefer to stick to one class.
I will have to see about how the paladin feels about a squire... might give it to him as a bonus feat. I Do have a question about the feat... It says "is always at least three or more levels lower than yourself" but it starts at level 1 when you are level 3. Might do something similar for the rogue, give him a Protege. If i do give these as bonus feats i will require them to spend a feat for full Leadership.
Protege
You attract a protege to aid you in your roguely endeavors.
Prerequisite: Rogue/Bard level 3rd*, Cha 13.
Benefit: This feat acts similarly to the Leadership feat, with several exceptions. You can only attract a 1st-level cohort (referred to hereafter as a protege) with this feat, and cannot recruit followers until you have the Leadership feat. You determine your Leadership score according to the rules presented in the Leadership feat, but your protege is always at least three or more levels lower than yourself.
A protege can only take levels in either rogue or bard, which ever class you are. She cannot multiclass, though she may take any archetype she qualifies for.
If a protege gains enough XP to bring her to two levels lower than your level, the squire does not gain the new level until you gain your next level—until then her new XP total is 1 less than the amount needed to attain the next level and she gains no additional XP until you advance.
If your protege leaves your service, you may gain a new one by scouting for potential candidates in a city or large town. which requires at least 24 hours of uninterrupted scouting. This act can also replace a protege who has perished.
Graduation: When you reach 7th level, this feat automatically upgrades to the Leadership feat (meaning that you effectively lose this feat and replace it with Leadership).
Graduation Benefits: You gain all the normal benefits of the Leadership feat, except that your protege must remain at least three levels lower than you and must continue to take levels in her first class. In order to remove this restriction your protege must be at least 4th level, and you must witness her as she singlehandedly defeats a foe with Hit Dice equal to or greater than her own (or perform some other extraordinary roguish deed). Protege graduates to partner and acts as a normal cohort; she may begin taking levels in other classes if she so chooses, and she may increase in level to up to two levels lower than yourself.
Hopefully with the addition of the cohorts/gestalts we will be just fine. I'm considering revising the starting location to Magnimar straight away so i can send them off to Ravenmoor after some in-town interactions and maybe a few odd-jobs around town.
I would try to have a more story driven game, allow the character to really work their schtick. I think starting them at thrid is a good idea, you may also want to have them be third but start with 0 xp. This will let players really get to know their characters with some lower level play and form a real partnership. Bumping up to a 25 point buy was wise.
My 2 cp
i would suggest creating either a single npc or a dmpc who directs/redirects the motives of the pally as well as having the capability of saving their behinds if need-be. it wouldn't have to be a frontal persona on the campaign so much as a link between the two who serves primarily as a guide who just so happens to have some spellcasting that serves to replace the utility of the missing pc. for example the pc's get hired by a wizard to hunt down a demon. the wizard acompanies the PCs on the quest to help them to bypass obsticles he feels they will be incapable of bypassing as well has having them do the dirty work he knows he cant handle alone...
Thanks Shimesen, this is one of the things I will be trying however the goal is for this role to be filled by multiple NPCs depending on the mission/situation. They will likely grow attached to certain NPCs but they will quickly learn never to depend on an NPC. Character development is going to focus on the player's characters, my npcs take a back seat.
I am depending on the pally's character to come up with a good motivation for himself that we can grow on, as i mentioned he is a writer and will be able to concoct something.
The rogue's business plans should provide me with lots of hooks, and he is planning on lining up his goals with what ever the pally is doing in order to leverage the paladin's status. The Paladin in turn will see the rogue's business ventures as a good thing since a portion of the profits are donated to his church.
I like the idea of lots of low level play to form a bond... however, at our heart the three of us are gamers and there is nothing more satisfying than getting stronger so you can beat up bigger and badder things. I'll be sticking to the standard gold and xp advancement track i think.
If the hook consists of them being two friends/relatives who join up with a mercenary company, you could have a pool of ready made NPCs who also part of the company. This way, they have accessible NPCs who can be fairly stable and who want to work with them, rather than "So, we're in a new city and really need a wizard to help us, but no one knows us and we're screwed".
Then, the story could either involve this mercenary company (Growing from amateur mercs to the best merc force in Varisia, and serving as a business they could eventually run), or the story could be edged further along via contracts, for example, there's a job in Magnimar investigating this missing person, last seen by a cave to the north. Oh no! That cave has an entrance to a temple of Rovagug and you've stumbled across a cult making a sacrifice, well what do you know, they have documents about a plan to release the beast, looks like some one has to stop it *cue epic quest music*
Gestault is something I'd love to try to play, so I think it should be fun for your players as well as simplifies how to go about creating encounters and such.
The cohorts also sound pretty good, but if they gestault and go with classes like druid or summoner, for the companions and eidolons, your 2 man party could become a group of 6 :)
i did a little research into gestault characters. this seems like a great idea for a small 2 PC group. however there is one issue i find with it. what happens when a 3rd person or more wants to join the campaign, or the campaign ends and you want to carry them into another campaign with more PC's? at that point they are just way to OP to be played
You jump off that bridge when you get to it, or you give them the heads up that in those events, there may be changes to balance things out. From your description they sound like they'll be easy to work with, so long as your up front about things.
You yourself said a 3rd person was unlikely for a while, so there's no reason to let that limit you, or in the event they need to lose a class, the BBEG could have perfected an evil weapon that strips away heroes' powers, part of the quest consists of getting back some of their abilities, and along the way the third player usurps some other heroes abilities, and ta da, everyone has a watered down gestault.
Besides, the gestault double-classing could help expand their perspectives and they may realize "You know, a rogue looked great on paper, but I'd really rather go the caster route" and when the time comes for integration into another campaign, Rogey the Rogue sorcerer may have opted to abandon his roguish ways, focussing on perfecting his magical ability (ta-da, loss of rogueishness, now a straight sorc class, and in exchange for losing the gestault give him a level or two or some other type of boon.)
I didn't read all the responses, but remember that Rogue doesn't mean criminal. Also in terms of FRPGs Lawful doesn't mean legal, the Mafia of the early 20th century was a very "Lawful" organization despite being criminals.
It is the actions of the Rogue that will determine whether or not the Paladin has problems. You can also have fun with the Paladin trying to reform the Rogue, and the Rogue trying to get the Paladin to lighten up.
I didn't look up the Gestalt stuff, but you could also run them as true multiclassed characters, so they would start as a Paladin/Cleric and a Rogue/Sorcerer not gaining levels until they have sufficient XP for both classes to go up a level, then if a third person joins he can start with the same XP and a third multiclass character, or you can switch back to the normal rules progression. Level progression would be much slower.
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The main thing to consider is the skill and enthusiasm of your players. If both players have a good understanding of game mechanics, a good amount of game sense, and are really interested in the game, a two player party should really have no problem.
If they're just learning the game, or one or the other isn't really into it, or they favor a playstyle that doesn't emphasize tactics or problem-solving, then they will need more help from the GM.
Another consideration is gear and loot. For a two-person party, giving them all the standard loot from published adventures will help compensate for their small party size. Don't hold them to wealth by level, especially when their trading company starts to succeed. In the same vein, giving them greater access to magic shops or encouraging them to take the magic item creation feats will help them customize their gear to better meet the challenges.
lower CR, more social interaction. maybe give them leadership if they want it.
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Perhaps you could make the paladin and the rogue related....maybe their cousins, or perhaps they are brothers......That might be fun.
There could be no end to fun RPing, and they would have a reason to stick together, and put up with each other.
I would also suggest starting at 1st level....even though they start a little squishie, by the time they get to third level they will have a sense of accomplishment.
Aslo if you make a wand of 750 gp CLW available to them, that should help with healing. The paladin would be able to use it, and i believe with a UMD difficulty of 20 the rogue will be able to use it.
Alternatively you could give them Healing belts from page 110 of the 3.5 Magic Item Compendium
It costs 750 the same price of a wand, and anyone can use them
This broad leather belt is studded with three moonstones.
While wearing a healing belt, you gain a +2 competence bonus on Heal checks. This is a continuous effect and requires no activation.
In addition, the belt has 3 charges, which are renewed each day at dawn. Spending 1 or more charges allows you to channel positive energy and heal damage with a touch. (You can also use this ability to harm undead, dealing them an equiva- lent amount of damage instead.)
1 charge: Heals 2d8 points of damage.
2 charges: Heals 3d8 points of damage.
3 charges: Heals 4d8 points of damage.
Prerequisites: Craft Wondrous Item, cure
moderate wounds. Cost to Create: 500 gp, 40 XP, 1 day.
I hope this helps.
I think you could play a fairly normal game with 2 PC's but things could turn into a TPK very quickly unless you adjust a few of the conditions in the back of the book.
I would basically downgrade most of the more serious conditions one step:
Nauseated --> Sickened
Paralyzed --> Stunned or even staggered.
Frightened --> Shaken
etc.
You might also consider a few options that would help the players if they become blinded, tripped, or any other action that seriously limits their options.
EDIT: Oh yeah, enchantment used against a 2 person party could really be devastating! A failed save against Hideous Laughter would be nasty, but Dominate Person would be an almost guaranteed TPK!
Encourage each player to select a class that gets sidekicks - the paladins mount is a great example (rangers, druids, clerics with animal domain), and summoning is another way to get temporary party members. Giving the players a few low power intelligent magic items is another great way to provide assistance. If a players shield can cast Remove Paralysis or Delay Poison, that could totally change an encounter.
One last thing. Start off very easy, and ramp up the difficulty slowly. A few bad rolls is all it takes to put a 2 person party on the ropes, and small parties have a much more difficult time getting back on their feet. Many encounters may get breezed through, but bad luck sets in eventually...
If they are comfortable with it, have each run 2 characters.
I'm playing CotCT pretty much as published in a two man party. We had a 3rd (rogue), but lost the player to RL conflicts. I play a Blaster/Conjuration Wizard and my friend plays an Urban Ranger, and its been going really well and pretty smoothly in general. The GM really hasn't had to reduce the CR of encounters so far. He makes changes, but they're generally along the lines of changing a rogue to an alchemist or whatever, rather than fiddling too much with CR...if anything, he ramps CR up for the big fights. Things have gotten dicey on occasion, but in general its been fine.
I doubt a Paladin+Rogue combo would fare quite as well due lacking the CC or debuff options my Wizard has at his disposal for tough fights, but it would likely be fine, especially if they play gestalt and/or take Leadership. In fact, I second the idea of giving them the Squire/Protoge feat that upgrades to Leadership for free. Having cohorts around who can step in as needed (or as others have mentioned an NPC or 2) can really be a lifesaver when the dice rolls get ugly (a big problem for a 2 person party). We have both recently (level 7 now) been given Leadership, and previously had a Cleric NPC tagging along with us. He's been pretty generally useless in combat, but he's good for a spot heal and as an occasional damage sponge.
Even if those supporting characters don't routinely join the fray, they can be around to provide a clutch flank, or a needed heal, or to remove a nasty condition (i.e. remove paralysis). Since the sidekicks are there, as GM, you can also occasionally attack them instead of the PCs to spread damage around some, especially when one of them is in immediate peril. As long as its reasonable to do so anyway.
Fergie also touched on this above, but be very careful when applying conditions to the PCs. In general, any form of CC is going to be devastating to a two man team, especially the bad ones like nauseated, paralyzed, stunned, frightened, and dominated. I wouldn't necessarily go so far as to downgrade those conditions out of your game, but be aware that they are crippling with such a small party. Having one of the cohorts able to remove some of those conditions (complementing the Paladin's mercies) can help a great deal.
As a rule, you probably shouldn't have enemies capable of strong CC and scary damage in the same encounter. CC + Deadly foes = TPK. Thanks for playing. You can use CC, but try to make sure the enemies in that encounter aren't super deadly, and that when the damage machines show up, they aren't accompanied by super-CC. This may take some adjustments as you go when running a published module.
Also, I'm sure you know how to handle this, but don't be afraid to fudge some rolls now and again. d20 is a swingy system in the best case, and having 4-5 PCs can help mitigate some of that, but with just 2, there will be frequent cases where they both hit a rough patch at the same time, and things will get ugly fast, especially vs. dangerous enemies. If that happens when they're on the ropes, its GG unless you intervene somehow. Just try not to wait until they're already on the ropes to fudge since the players will have an idea of what you did, and that can spoil the fun. Instead, turn that scythe crit into a regular hit ("oh dang, he didn't confirm"), take the edge off that near max damage roll you just hit on the baddie's 8d6 AoE. Things like that, and it'll probably work out without having to resort to overt deus ex machina (or TPK). This is part of why the GM rolls behind a screen after all...
Happy Hunting!
you could pull off Legacy of fire with the Two person group. there are other NPCs in the beginning (like that grubby ranger dude) and plenty of other PCs along the way that might join the team or be a traveling companion (like that harpy).
You can also include several "red shirts" from allarah that fall by the wayside here and there.
Just give them some mercenary cannon fodder to command courtesy of their rich lady friend.
Thanks again everyone for your input. I'm meeting with my players over the weekend to sure up some of the details. For sure the rogue is in to stay but if i can sell them on gestalt hopefully he will take a caster.
Going to let them hire lower level mercenary help. No rich lady friend buy it yourself. For equal level help they will have to negotiate division of loot or some other form of deal. But they will probably get enough gold for a 3-4 person party as Exocrat suggested.
Going to give them the option for a squire/protege for free and a free upgrade to Leadership at 7th.
I'm not running an AP, just some modules im going to link together with my own content. Ive reread them again to try and identify pitfalls for a 2 man and ways i could introduce a npc to help them.
Does anyone know of resources for adjudicating running their business?
Well I thought I would post an update for anyone interested. We did character creation 2 weeks ago and we have our first session tomorrow.
Ended up going with 25pt buy, gestalt, 3rd level. I have an Elf Sorcerer/Rogue and a Tiefling Inquisitor/Cleric of Pharasma. Standard build gold for 3rd level (3000 each).
They are starting off in Magnimar under the assumption they know each other and have been working together for a couple of months. Mercenary for hire, guard duty, detective, and a little bit of working trades in the market. They have rented out a small, kind of run down store front just outside of the slums. A place to sleep, meet with clients and store their loot.
I didnt end up giving them apprentices yet but i might still do that.
Tomorrow is going to be an introduction to the city. The slumlord will send someone by for his rent, the cleric will have some interaction with the clergy of his church. I'm trying to instill a hatred for undead into the cleric, he will likely be sent by the church to investigate reports of undead in one of the cities cemeteries. They are going to witness a theft in the bazar, hopefully thwart it and get noticed by a magnimar clerk who needs help. She is a tax official who needs help collecting from one of the local businesses. If they are successful she will send them to ravenmoor.
I picked up the Magnimar: City of Monuments book so i will let them run around the city a little bit and explore if they want to, have them find the stone carved map of the city and tell me where they want to go.
All going well by the end of this session i will have them hooked for Ravenmoor, and get enough experience to put them well on their way to 4th level before the final encounter of that module.
Have you ever thought about giving them 2 NPC's to control, so that the group isn't underpowered? That's what most DM's do.