Goblin Squad Member
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Disclaimer: This is my own opinion and could be entirely inaccurate, but how I've read the situation, here goes:
Goblin Works is taking the risk. You are confusing early Paizo cross-promotion with "a new strategic direction" for the company, possibly?
Goblin Works has secured investment for the game. That's where most of the risk is. Question: How much has Paizo invested itself? Answer: Probably done the risk assessment if it has invested/can invest.
Second: The investment is to see ROI in a potentially large market that is under-served - at this present time. GW has already done it's market analysis. Agree MMORPG genre is risky, but it's a complementary direction to get involved in the digital markets that are growing so much, imo.
Verdict: It's a risk worth taking especially as it's a lean launch and avoids the "MMO Themepark Mortgage" that Ryan mentions anywhere from 50$m-100$m and more in the case of SWTOR. It's significantly lower risk by comparison. Did you read the blog:
Goblin Works Blog: A Journey of a Thousand Miles Begins with a Single Step
Big Things Come in Small Packages
The second critical issue with theme park MMOs is that it's very difficult to entertain a crowd of theme park enthusiasts who have completed all the theme park content... and theme park enthusiasts can blast through content in no time. If new content isn't ready when players have finished the old content, they'll flee to another MMO (many will go back to World of Warcraft). The result is the "spike & crash" pattern we've seen with every major fantasy theme park MMO released in the past five years. Companies are then in the position where they no longer have enough customers to cover the cost of the enormous infrastructure they've built up for the launch. This is why many MMOs don't have long-term success.
Lisa's challenge to figure out how to make the game on a lean budget led me to the realization that the last thing we want is a huge spike of players followed by a rapid decline. What we want instead is a slow, steady growth of players—the same kind of growth that EVE Online has experienced almost every year since its launch. Since Goblinworks won't have to pay off a huge theme park mortgage, our focus will instead be on making our virtual world as engaging as possible and sustaining that virtual world as the population grows over years of time.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I understand the frustration but truth is truth, PnP is very close to death. I would be surprised if Pathfinder isn't the last great, commercially successful PnP game. As a matter of fact, the only reason Pathfinder even exists is because they jumped all over on an all out revolt against the biggest title of the industry. It was a lightning in a bottle event and after they capitalized by releasing pretty much every supplement book conceivable in like 3 years, there isn't much else where to go.
IMHO, it's the MMO and other ventures that are going to pay for the continued existence of your beloved PnP game, so I would embrace it.
Pathfinder is a popular name within the RPG community. To most of the world, it's an SUV. To a few folks, it was a horrible viking-indian movie.
The MMO will have a higher profile and be seen by a wider audience than just the Pathfinder RPG is. Outside of your game-playing community, how many people know about MMOs but don't know about RPGs: or any beyond D&D? PFO will be more visible than PF is.
I do believe that if Pathfinder Online fails, to the extent it is mentioned in relationship with Patfhinder, it will be "Pathfinder: That's that D&D game, right?" The Pathfinder RPG will get a black eye from a failed PFO effort.
Hopefully it would only be a small one. But this "Goblinworks is a seperate company" thing is irrelevant in the public eye. Paizo and Pathfinder are all over PFO (heck, it's the name). The linkage is there.
DISCLAIMER: Though I'm not crazy about PFO, I'm a KS supporter because I don't want Paizo to end up a loser. So, I hope it creates a sustainable niche and sticks around.
I haven't noticed anybody make the observation that PFO has created the first real schism within the PF community that I've run across. PF players might quibble over monks, rules, etc, but it's been a very united community. PFO has moved some PFO people into two different camps. That's quite unfortunate.
I wouldnt ring the death knell of PNP just yet. RPG's are like a lot of genre hobbies, comic books, video games, they all have their cycles. Peaks and valleys might be higher and lower for some, but they never die out in the lean times. We are a devout fanbase after all.
Pathfinder's inception was definitley a peak, but a new edition, or a new game could be just around the corner, and a smart company diversifies its buisness so that one divison can generate revenue for the whole when another is not having the best year. Something like liscencing your intellectual property for a video game can only make Paizo stronger should it succeed and has limited risk should it fail as long as they do not tie it directly to the core buisness...it seems to me that with Goblinworks...they have their heads in the right place.
Beyond that I see no evidence that this new venture is taking creative people away from the game we love..there are still a ton of great products comming out. Still the hands on approach to their message boards, still new joint ventures like the great mini's kickstarter that occured this year. I understand your fears friend...but I think their unfounded.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I believe you mean face to face rather than human to human, old fellow.
The medium does not define our identities. I am as human as I write this reply as I would be were we elbow to elbow at a table. My emotions are as real, and my imagination is every bit as fertile.
Further, I anticipate your objection that discussing these things via text over the internet are less personal, and yes, I do realize as I write that you cannot pull out a .45 sidearm on me quite so easily. But in response I wish to assure you that using VoIP (Voice over Intrnet Protocol) communications will bring every bit of the inflection and timbre of my voice in your ear as it would were we peering at one another over our barracades of charts awaiting the dice to come to rest.
This venture need not leach the vitality from Paizo, and is much more likely to infuse in the hobby far greater vitality than the whispering creak of old age and encroaching death that face-to-face Roleplay has been enduring, and denying, and fearing for a decade and more.
The young and innocent must be enticed into our universe, for adventure, for advantage, and forever.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Problem with PnP is what do you sell once your niche audience has all the books/PDF's they need?
Remember that Pathfinder became what they are specifically on the promise that they wouldn't mess around with the core rules anymore. This castle was built on the assumption that 3.5+ is THE final and finished version of Dungeons and Dragons that the aging player base wants to play until it dies out.
Not exactly a recipe for expansion. Like i said they caught lightning in a bottle and it's almost freakish the way they produced so many books in such little time but they need online gaming to make money or there will be nothing left to sell.
Captain, it's also publicity for Pathfinder.
I've been a pen-and-paper gamer since 1978, and an MMORPG player since 1995. I suspect a lot of gamers are like me (though perhaps not as old!).
I'd never heard of Pathfinder until I got an email from Reaper Miniatures (I backed their Kickstarter last summer), touting the PFO Kickstarter. I've backed PFO at the guild level, which means most of my pen-and-paper group will be in early enrollment. Thanks to the Kickstarter for PFO, and these forums, I've also already bought the Pathfinder RPG core rulebook. So PFO has generated revenue for Pathfinder RPG already, and it's not even developed yet.
There's a lot of synergy to be had between the pen-and-paper and online versions of the game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I bet I'm not wrong in guessing that Paizo's really talented management team is already spending more and more of their time in meetings and discussions that focus on MMO development rather than new Adventure Paths and other tabletop content.
I bet you're about as wrong as a person can be on this.
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Goblin Squad Member
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1. As said it has every chance of bringing Pathfinder to a new audience as it does "worry" PnP players: Another option is a good thing. I hope the 2 super dungeons Thornkeep and Emerald Spire if successful can be played in PnP and PfO!!
2. Mark Kalmes, iirc says in the podcast, they (Paizo & Goblin Works) are fairly separate - I believe they can liase very easily on creative and IP discussions (a good thing for the IP's QC) and do cross-promo stuff, as they share same office building. He even says they're using the forums at Paizo because he has been too lazy to set up their own - as well as the obvious benefits of intially using them (ready to go).
3. The generation question has merit to it, it's seen in other areas also. MMORPGs will bring new younger generations in, it's strongly expected. It would be ideal if they experience the mmorpg, get a little more experienced and as PF is part of their shared culture, decide to have a look at PnP?
4. H&W: As already said, it may interest PnP + mmorpg players more than just PnP players (fair enough) as well as mmorpg players. Ideally sole PnP players might take an interest in the use of the IP? There's always going to be grapevine vibes eg sport transfers are just the same.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There's a lot of synergy to be had between the pen-and-paper and online versions of the game.
This!
Plus the fact that Goblinworks is it's own buisiness that, apart from sharing web admins, is totally separte from Paizo in terms of staff.
And PFO has caused Paizo to do a likely very very awesome Pathfinder product with the Emerald Spire.
So I only see a win for Pathfinder P&P regardless how the MMO fares.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Look, factually speaking, the firewall between Paizo and Goblinworks is clearly more of a permeable membrane.
As MicMan points out, Paizo is creating a new product specifically as an incentive to get people to invest in the MMO.
They've invested an enormous part of their brand and goodwill capital in moving customers toward this new product.
Their product name is on the new MMO, for Pete's sake.
The Paizo marketing staff is clearly putting time and effort into this.
If the creative team's not involved, I'll eat my 20-sider.I acknowledge cheerfully that Paizo is trying to address a couple of legitimate business concerns.
1. How to leverage the newly popular "Pathfinder" brand
2. How to continue growing after the tabletop market for their products is fairly mature.
I guess I had kind of hoped -- and this is probably unrealistic -- that Paizo would be satisfied to operate as the leading custodian of modern tabletop D&D role-playing.
That would have meant some real limits on growth and potential. But it would have been kind of a cool pop-culture niche to fill.
Instead, Paizo appears to be doing what companies do: searching for opportunities to expand, grow, develop new product lines, etc.
This isn't crazy or bad or weird. But I'll say again -- in our particular hobby, it has proved to be REALLY risky.
For some reason, gaming companies that stop focusing on their core RPG product line in a hugely disciplined way tend to do face plants.
It is ONLY out of affection and loyalty to Paizo that I offer this nudge of caution.
--Marsh
A worthy nudge of caution.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Here is what I believe, you are chicken little in an echo chamber and all you can hear is that the sky is falling.
Please point out where Paizo has failed to deliver. It seems to me that books are as high a quality as they have ever been, and man there seems to be a lot of them.
I have seen some very distressed people however. Most of them from PFS and most of them have been concerned about what could happen. Or they are unset because someone else close to them in PFS over reacted and ragequit.
Posts like yours would be best addressed not to the message board but in a letter to the top folks of Paizo. Here it just serves to divide Paizo fans from PFO fans. I happen to be both, and I believe in both companies.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I was not accusing you of being divisive. WotC licensed someone else to make DDO. They are having financial problems because of 4th ED, not becasue someone made an MMO 6-8 years ago.
They had also prior licensed a ton of computer RPGs (Baldur's gate, Neverwinter Nights, etc.) and that did not hurt their bottom line. If anything it probably got some new blood to buy their PnP products.
What I'm asking is what other PnP publisher are they going to look to for this 'cautionary tale'?
Also, if anyone comes accross as annoyed with this topic, it's because we've already had this discussion when Goblin Works first announced the intent to make PFO.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Kryzbyn, Tetrix -
When I look at TSR and Wizards, and other gaming companies, I see a cautionary tale that's worth thinking about in this moment.
I'm raising these questions in the community that Paizo has created because I feel welcome here.
I'm doing it civilly, with an open mind, and I'm not being divisive. And I'm not shouting that the sky is falling.
If supporters of the MMO begin suggesting that only people who agree with them are welcome to express their views here, that will be divisive.
- Marsh
Welcome friend.
You are welcome here, but I feel you are being divisive. You may have some valid concerns, although I believe you are not as informed as you believe you are, either way I believe your concerns would be best addressed to the people in control. If you want to get the community 'moving' it will only serve to divide the fans. So welcome but please be a good friend and don't shout fire in Paizo's nice theater.
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Goblin Squad Member
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While Captain Marsh makes some very good points. I don't think that what we are seeing is a schism in the Pathfinder community. What this game is causing, is a sudden influx of MMO fans. A lot of these people are going to be new to both Pathfinder and D&D. This is going to cause some friction since the typical MMO gamer has a very different mindset from a PnP player.
I am pretty sure that Paizo will do a good job serving both communities. Although I will admit that I am disappointed with the direction PFO is taking. In the end Paizo will do everythig to keep us PnP subscribers happy and GW will take of the MMO people.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Don't know what exactly what you wish these resources should be doing for the PnP game. The PnP game is pretty set up. They clearly want to push Golarion as the setting so i don't see them making another one yet.
Modules? The players make most of them nowadays. I don't really understand what you mean by "custodian of the modern DnD". What exactly does that entail in terms of activity and labor resources?
I think it's a perfect time in the company's life span to start branching into online games to be frank.
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Granted, Paizo have a vested interest in seeing Pathfinder Online succeed but I don't see this venture detracting from their main business. Yes, there are members of upper management straddling both companies but those that are doing so must expect to be able to manage this or they wouldn't have done it.
And of course, as Goblinworks grows the time requirement will likely shrink as Goblinworks becomes more autonomous. It might be that certain staff members at Paizo jump to Goblinworks but they will be replaced by someone equally up to the task.
Your posts kind of come off as telling Paizo how to run their business. They've been successful for ten years through thick and thin; give them the benefit of the doubt that they know what they are doing.
Also yes, Paizo are asking their existing customer base to invest but only if they want to. What Paizo is attempting to do is more along the lines of attracting new customers to their franchise through a new medium. This MMO comes at a time when a lot of players are becoming bored with the current methodology in the MMORPG genre and this could prove to be lucrative to Goblinworks and by extension, Paizo, and that can only benefit us all.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I've already had this conversation with others, in another thread months ago...
I'm merely suggesting you look at the old thread to see what has come before. To see that these arguments have already been presented, and see how conversations with the Goblinworks folks and the Paizo team have squashed them and reassured those that felt the same as you do now, back then.
Goblin Squad member means I contributed financialy to the Tech Demo.
As far as being informative, I believe I have done that by bringing these other threads to your attention.
But you may continue to beat your dead horse. I am not a moderator, feel free to continue.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Is it wrong that other gaming companies have stumbled badly and divided their communities when they've invested time and energy in new media side ventures?
--Marsh
Soory dawg, but as one old school Pnp'er to another, I gotta call BS. Both Dungeons and Dragons AND White Wolf signed their death warrants by TRYING TO MAKE MONEY OFF MORE BOOKS.
DnD lost it's base when it tried to sell 4.0
White Wolf also lost it's base when it changed the setting/rules.
These companies tried to make a living off selling books and eventually the only way to do it is break what you had before and try to sell something new.
If anything, revenues from video games could SAVE the PnP game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Captain Marsh - A clash of decorum occurs in these situations all the time, perhaps it's just how the internet works for communication: You have to see how it works from both angles.
As to what Tetrix was saying at the heart of the matter: "Worrying is like being on a rocking-chair: You just go backwards and forwards."
But equally what you are saying is Paizo has a lot of "good will" with it's fan base and you are worried it will burn that "credit" if this BIG project and other 'heady' projects backfire. Fair point.
I think what you really want to know is: Goblin Works is a separate company and that does shield Paizo from the risk, sufficiently? *raises eyebrows* But equally from Paizo's pov it's a smart move to expand into the digital space with it's IP with an eye to the future, imo.
Also, Goblin Works employs ~9 people with L.S. the only foot in both. I'm sure some of the creative people at Paizo relish the potential of PfO, equally? Be interested to hear their views on this clash of interests maybe? :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Is it wrong that other gaming companies have stumbled badly and divided their communities when they've invested time and energy in new media side ventures?
--Marsh
Soory dawg, but as one old school Pnp'er to another, I gotta call BS. Both Dungeons and Dragons AND White Wolf signed their death warrants by TRYING TO MAKE MONEY OFF MORE BOOKS.
DnD lost it's base when it tried to sell 4.0
White Wolf also lost it's base when it changed the setting/rules.
These companies tried to make a living off selling books and eventually the only way to do it is break what you had before and try to sell something new.
If anything, revenues from video games could SAVE the PnP game.
Too bad White Wolf is dead. Except they're still publishing. Exalted 3rd Edition is coming in February. And mourning WotC is a bit premature.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Kryzbyn, Tetrix -
When I look at TSR and Wizards, and other gaming companies, I see a cautionary tale that's worth thinking about in this moment.
I'm raising these questions in the community that Paizo has created because I feel welcome here.
I'm doing it civilly, with an open mind, and I'm not being divisive. And I'm not shouting that the sky is falling.
If supporters of the MMO begin suggesting that only people who agree with them are welcome to express their views here, that will be divisive.
- Marsh
Well, you'll have to understand that it is irksome to have to see yet another concerned table top player come in to express his worries that resemble the same worries that guy #184 expressed last week. It's not to say you aren't welcome here but your concerns (as none of them weren't items we haven't heard before and addressed) ring akin to the passengers in the back continuously asking "are we there yet?" for many here.
Per the question asked to you, I have yet to see an answer for a TT company that folded because they made an attempt at an MMO. With respect to Wizards I'd fully argue that their loss in credibility had to do with Eberron being the next big setting and the release of 4th edition (for which they have essentially apologized for when they announced wanting fan input for the creation of this next addition).
Dungeons & Dragons Online (DDO) suffered because it was a) in a new setting that was not familiar, and b) because it was not a wide open explorable world where players could own land, build kingdoms and all of the other mature aspects of table top gaming that aren't just hack and slash. If DDO had been set in the Forgotten Realms and had the gameplay that PFO is working on it would have been much better received.
Paizo, in my view, really doesn't have any other competition in the high fantasy TTRPG genre. Wizards would have been but they gambled on a themepark TT design for D&D 4 and it blew up on them. I bet the folks at Paizo see the lead they have in this genre and aren't interested in giving up any ground. I doubt the TT portion will lose any steam and products will continue to come out as normal.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Too bad White Wolf is dead. Except they're still publishing. Exalted 3rd Edition is coming in February. And mourning WotC is a bit premature.
Don't look at me! OP is the one talking about how PnP companies are destroyed by making video games.
But the worst thing to ever happen to DnD was 4.0, a PnP ruleset and the worst thing to ever happen to WW was 2nd edition, another PnP rule set.
I was really looking forward to WoD online but I've moved over here now.
To the folks who keep trumpeting versions of "Goblinworks is a seperate company from Paizo so don't worry about it (variations of this have appeared on multiple threads): Structurally it appears to be so and I don't doubt that.
Practically: seriously?
(this is from the GW site)
What's the relationship between Goblinworks and Paizo Publishing?
Goblinworks has an exclusive worldwide license from Paizo to create an MMO using Paizo's Pathfinder property. Paizo is a founding owner of Goblinworks, and is providing operational support to Goblinworks. Lisa Stevens is a founding owner of both Goblinworks and Paizo, as well as the CEO of Paizo and the COO of Goblinworks.
Which Paizo employees are involved with Pathfinder Online?
Because Pathfinder Online is very important to Paizo, almost every Paizo employee that works on Pathfinder will be involved to some degree with Pathfinder Online. Paizo's leadership team of Lisa Stevens, Erik Mona, Jeff Alvarez, and Vic Wertz, as well as Creative Director James Jacobs, have been working on Pathfinder Online since its conception.
So please stop touting this invisible wall. It's there on the GW page.
Paizo support is there with Pathfinder product being produced specifically for PFO (Thornkeep, Emerald Spire, a novel). Paizo employees are writing parts of these products. It's NAMED Pathfinder. The PFO message board is on the paizo website.
And before people jump on me as being anti-PFO, I am backing the current kickstarter.
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Goblin Squad Member
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While factually accurate, it does not back up the supposition that said involvement will result in poorer quality PnP products, or that the Paizo staff is spending more time on the PFO content than the PnP content; this supposition is what was being refuted. And has been before. Repeatedly.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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The whole thing I think the *naysayers* (using lightly) are saying is that even with inter-linkage between Paizo and Goblinworks Paizo doesn't sit down and decide to develop a book that is going to be released next month (or at least I hope that is not the case)
I would assume that Paizo has a pretty detailed product plan lineup that most likely extends well into 2013 if not through 2013 and/or possibly 2014. So even if there is some shift of focus from Paizo to Goblinworks I would imagine it's going to have minimal effect on products coming out as they *should* already have a number of them in the pipeline and being worked on.
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Goblin Squad Member
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We tabletop guys (I'm playing in a Rise of the Runelords campaign on Saturdays) don't need to be silenced. And no one is asking that of you! They're asking that you look into the same arguments that others have presented before you and were already answered. Paizo has spent a long time thinking about the very things you ask them to think about. It shouldn't surprise you that they think it's a good idea because they're backing and endorsing this product. Reaper Miniatures is also supporting them (they sent out an email suggesting we support Pathfinder Online).
Basically, no one is telling you to be quiet. They're simply asking you to look at the answers to the questions that are already there. Answering the same questions over and over again is simply tiring. Especially when the answers are so easily found.