Goblin Squad Member
|
In a healthy community, silence isn't healthy.
Talking honestly and frankly about important issues isn't the equivalent of shouting fire in a crowded movie theater.
No. I don't want to use my search function. I want to express my views about our game, our hobby, and our community.
I don't think anyone told you to be silent. Most of us here do want to have good meaningful conversations about the PFO game. You however admittedly do not want to be informed, you want to express yourself.
Your concern seems to the with the whole notion of PFO. That ship has sailed. PFO is a real thing. You may be under the delusion that the game can be stopped from being made. Please divorce yourself from any such notion. And since it will not be stopped... and you have not offered any solutions to the emotional questions you have put out there this topic can only prove to disrupt the community.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
You're not even reading my posts. No one is trying to silence you.
I am simply questioning the need to re-hash what has come before.
Oh, you spend hundred of dollars at paizo a year! Well, why didn't you say so! That surely excuses redundancy!
I'm sure nobody that has voiced the same exact concerns months ago could possibly have spent that much. Carry on, then.
PS. Trying to claim people are attmpting to silence a dissenting voice repeatedly, when it obviously isn't true, kinda makes you a drama llama.
Next step should be to claim you won't spend any more money at Paizo becasue of an oppressive on-line community trying to squash dissent, or you're not doing it right.
There's no conspiracy, seriously.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
....
Finally, I'll answer your question: I'm one of Paizo's best customers.
I buy hundreds of dollars worth of books and other products from the company every year.
That does not make you better than some of the other posters here.
You are one of many who do buy hundreds of dollars worth of books and other products from the company every year.
Your voice has equal weight to every other PF customer on this messageboard.
-------------------------------------------------
True, PFO is making some anxious.
It's be to expected.
But they would not have gone ahead with it without doing research and feedback from the community.
A good chunk of the community did want a computer based PF game.
The company went with the majority's wish for a computer based PF game.
Hence, PFO is being made.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Questions like these can only help Paizo think more carefully about how this will affect their core product, and customers like myself.
Ok lets talk, how does your public questioning of their business practices "help" Paizo, in a way that sending them an email would not? You have only offered your concerns on how it will hurt your hobby. It may come as a surprise to you, but mere concern doesn't mean much. How has the opening of GoblinWorks hurt your hobby so far? How do you see PFO hurting it in the future?
I have seen a division in with some Paizo fans. This is what I have seen... I have seen some Paizo fans that support the new venture, and they seem to be joined by some new people that had not heard of pathfinder or Paizo before and are now here because of the MMO. I have seen this group opposed by a hand ringing mass of Paizo fans that stumble in here, uninformed, uninterested in PFO and sometimes angry that Paizo dare make something that they not like, and try to dissuade continued production of PFO. To me it seems the latter group is the one poo pooing in the pool.
So all that being said, cheers mate, lets find common ground, adventure together and if we can not then just agree not to disrupt the other persons enjoyment.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Kryzbyn -
In my business -- which I admit is not running a RPG company -- whenever someone demands your silence it's a marker.
It's a warning sign. It means that more conversation, not less, is warranted.
This is a company's website. But part of the business model is that it's also a community.
So quit hectoring and demanding that people respect your agenda. Converse, talk, listen.
If other members of your community are worried by something -- even if it's something that doesn't worry you -- respect that.
Again, this isn't small stuff.
You guys are part of an effort to encourage lots of our fellow community members to invest hundreds of thousands of dollars in a start-up venture.
Take that responsibility seriously. Be a little more patient.
And if you're burned out on trying to communicate about this, maybe you should step away.
Finally, I'll answer your question: I'm one of Paizo's best customers.
I buy hundreds of dollars worth of books and other products from the company every year.
It's good for them to hear that what they're doing is making some of their core, loyal customers anxious.
Doesn't mean they have to do what I want. But it's healthy for them to have that feedback.
--Marsh
So like tell them. That's a big part of my issue with this post. I am not trying to silence you, I am telling you that you are saying this in to the wrong end of the telecommunication device. TELL RYAN, TELL LISA. We only know what is publicly available, and by your own admission you are not interested in the knowledge that can be had publicly, you should address those that can best address your fears.
Posting this here does not do the community a service, it just insights the natives. You are anxious, ok. You are uninformed by choice, ok. Becoming informed may help with the anxious feeling you have. Seriously man I really believe much of what is happening in this thread is of your own creation.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
this is from the GW site)
What's the relationship between Goblinworks and Paizo Publishing?Goblinworks has an exclusive worldwide license from Paizo to create an MMO using Paizo's Pathfinder property. Paizo is a founding owner of Goblinworks, and is providing operational support to Goblinworks. Lisa Stevens is a founding owner of both Goblinworks and Paizo, as well as the CEO of Paizo and the COO of Goblinworks.
Which Paizo employees are involved with Pathfinder Online?
Because Pathfinder Online is very important to Paizo, almost every Paizo employee that works on Pathfinder will be involved to some degree with Pathfinder Online. Paizo's leadership team of Lisa Stevens, Erik Mona, Jeff Alvarez, and Vic Wertz, as well as Creative Director James Jacobs, have been working on Pathfinder Online since its conception.
Paizo support is there with Pathfinder product being produced specifically for PFO (Thornkeep, Emerald Spire, a novel). Paizo employees are writing parts of these products. It's NAMED Pathfinder. The PFO message board is on the paizo website.
All that actually strengthens PfO: Creativity and Leadership expertise and creative control of the IP. And there is little case it weakens Paizo. IE the Headcount at Goblin Works, I suspect it includes L.S. only.
The only relevant information to the raised concern that has substance is the "founding ownership" = the risk exposure, but that's been mentioned and likely professionally handled, so I don't see any worries.
And before people jump on me as being anti-PFO, I am backing the current kickstarter.
You're jumping on yourself H&W, before anyone else can. :p
The only thing I'd mention is that the 2nd kickstarter is a really big ask for ponying up cash early ie what Captain Marsh is saying about the "good will " of the fans. Usually for mmorpgs that's a big no-no. But I think PfO is worth the risk and I'm putting my money where my mouth is. The community IS very good here at Paizo/PfO - that is worth a lot as much as the actual design vision of PfO.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
But please. Knock it off with the gatekeeper, "we'll let you know when the right time has arrived to talk about this" stuff.
Yep. Not doing that either.
A a member of an online community, you have a certain reposnsibility to not waste as much cyberspace or the moderators time as possible. If you have a thought or question, you should attempt to use the search function to find answers before you open a new thread. This is forum 101 stuff. I'm sure you're also aware, not doing this can lead to razing.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Community is not about efficiency or "getting over" things. And it's not about being told that ships have sailed.
Maybe the MMO will happen. Maybe it won't.
RISKS AND CHALLENGES Learn about accountability on Kickstarter
Because Goblinworks has the funding to make Pathfinder Online, even if the timeline is a long one, there is only a very small chance that the game will never see release. One of the largest costs for a computer game project of this scope is the costs for people. If there are significant delays that prevent us from releasing the game to paying customers on time, we would need an influx of capital to make it to the later release. If we couldn’t get that capital, then the release of the game could be in jeopardy. Also, if we were to lose a key member of our staff, it could impact our ability to produce the game. Thankfully, we have contracts in place for all of our key staff, so it would take an extraordinary situation for us to lose one of them.
The key Goblinworks staff has started and grown many successful companies. They have seen MMO games through to completion. In any project of this scope, there will be unseen challenges that will spring up, but the depth of experience of our staff makes us confident that we will be able to meet those challenges head on and defeat them.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I don't agree with a lot what the OP is saying but he has every right to post his views. Being polite and respecting other peoples views is also forum 101.
I believe he has every right to express his concerns. However if the OP wants to be well received and effective he needs to do a few things.
- Become informed. Its very hard to convince others that you are worth listening to, or following when you don't know what you are talking about and show disdain for readily available information.
- Word your concerns in a matter that engages the readers and elicits their concerns as well. If you must word things in a manner that is more informative and less conversational then you need to do the next point.
-Pick your audience. If you are just tossing a grenade into a room you can't expect it to hit its mark on the first toss. The concerns expressed here are not totally without merit however since they were not presented in a manner that seems suitable for people to actually discuss and they serve more as a warning to Paizo, addressing Paizo would be the OP's best bet.
-Forget that you are a beautiful or unique snowflake. You may be but here on the internet we are all the same.
Marsh I don't have anything against you personally, and I admit I have been a jerk to you here, but you have not done yourself any favors at all either. Anyhow Merry Christmas, and best of luck in all you do.
|
CEO, Goblinworks
|
@All - I think it's unavoidable that some folks who love Pathfinder tabletop will see Pathfinder Online as a mistake. That's just human nature.
I'd like to emphasize we're all in this together. It's unhelpful to tell people they have bad-wrong concerns, or that they're being repetitive of things others have said, or question their knowledge or their love of the brand.
The best thing you can do is not respond.
You're not going to convince Captain Marsh, and those like him that he's wrong. Can't be done.
But you will create the impression that it's us vs. them. And that's bad for Pathfinder, Pathfinder Online, Goblinworks, and Paizo.
You help us more by saying nothing. Just let it go. These kinds of messages will appear forever. Allow it to simply pass without comment. There's no upside to engagement, and a lot of downside.
RyanD
|
CEO, Goblinworks
|
@Captain Marsh - No offense, but you aren't here to have a dialog. You're here to say our baby is ugly. That's totally fine and you're more than welcome to do so, but it's not likely you'll get much of a constructive response.
But I think it does more harm than good for a bunch of people to pile into the thread you've created and then degenerate the conversation into "uh-huh", "nuh-uh" in the space of a few hours. So I'd like them to stop.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I'm no expert, but FWIW I also shared (maybe still do) your concern.
In my opinion, businesses take risks all the time - building an MMORPG and expanding the brand into that space has potential benefits and potential drawbacks. What put my mind at rest (and has even persuaded me to be a serious backer, despite my misgivings) is that the Paizo guys know what they're doing. They're not just people I like making products I want - they also run a business in a way I think is excellent.
If they think this is good for Paizo, I suspect it probably is. Like you, I was concerned, but it's not surprising that they've already thought of those concerns and have taken steps to mitigate the risks whilst still taking the opportunity.
It might all end in tears - then again, it might have been bad to stick with an "out-of-date" ruleset and to produce their own version. Those risks worked out okay.
It seems to me that the TTRPG product lines are all still much loved - they continue to innovate, to experiment and to produce great product. With luck, the success of goblinworks will only improve Pathfinder's standing even further. As it is - those MMORPG guys may well end up helping produce a megadungeon, which is great. :)
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
As usual Ryan, you can represent things way better than I can.
It was not my intent to tell him his views were invalid or unwanted, but to merely point out that he could've used the search function to see the conversations that have come before, instead of you or another staff member having to get involved in the same arguments.
My issue has never been about that he has concerns, just the particular ones brought up have been hashed out before. I was actually trying to help, at first. Trying to save ya'll some time, and I failed miserably.
I will not respond to such in the future.
PS. Captain Marsh, razing is the same as giving you s@%@, which is what I was doing.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Marsh
People have been trying to tell you that there is information on these threads in answer to your concerns. I have seen this situation between Goblinworks and Paizo as the people who are the creative forces behind Golarion are creating some part of that setting for PFO. It is also going to be used by the TT players. Pathfinder Online will be run by a different company that uses creativity from Paizo. For me, the only concern would be if their creative tanks get depleted—something that I see as highly unlikely.
Instead of engaging in the already existing threads, you created your own. OK, good enough. People have tried to summarize the responses to your concerns here with the split between the companies and how this is being handled.
You have continued to state worries that don't seem to apply (from our perspective) or that we as a community cannot answer. We can't help you. There are a few of you who are worried about Paizo losing its focus, and there are those of us who don't see it. We look at the same facts, and draw two completely different conclusions.
What I believe Ryan was getting at—and I hope he forgives me if I get this wrong—is that no arguments or statements from us are going to dislodge your conclusions. If we can't shift your position and we don't see your position as a sound conclusion, what is there to discuss?
We can't quiet your fears. You can't persuade us that Paizo is heading in the wrong direction. If we can't help or support you, silence may end up being the most respectful thing we can do for your posts.
|
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Welcome Captain Marsh. There is no dash in the word online. I have no mean spirits about that, but it makes me think of Grandpa Simpson and someone complaining about kids these days. I'd feel the same way if you put a dash in today, or tomorrow, or any other word that hasn't had a dash in it since 1873. It's particularly odd in a modern word that didn't exist in 1873.
I mean no ill will towards you, your love of dashes, or dashes generally. I wouldn't object to you using paragraphs, but c'est la vie.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Feros -
Again, I'm not sure how you reach your assumption about the unquenchable nature of my fears.
In the handful of posts where people have provided me with actual opinions (like yours) or with information (which a couple of people have done) IT HAS IN FACT EASED MY CONCERNS.
--Marsh
That's great! And upon rereading some of your posts, I can see that. Unfortunately it hasn't really come across that way. I think a lot of the negativity on this thread (mostly in response to your OP) has made it hard to see what is what here. Ryan seemed to be defending your right to post AND reign in the negative vibe going on. He also seemed to miss the part where you were shifting your position.
I'm glad you can be persuaded and that this thread hasn't been a waste of time. Not many of these threads can claim that.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Did you really think the conversation was going to go well when you began it on a false premise (that Paizo=Goblinworks), and then refuse all comments to the contrary?
I've got to disagree on you calling this a "conversation". No...it has more of a narcotic driven conspiracy theory rant feel to it.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Feros -
Again, I'm not sure how you reach your assumption about the unquenchable nature of my fears.
In the handful of posts where people have provided me with actual opinions (like yours) or with information (which a couple of people have done) IT HAS IN FACT EASED MY CONCERNS.
--Marsh
Marshy -
I agree with what Ryan said, because I already considered the same thing before submitting post #2 (there's a troll thread elsewhere) but I checked your post count and your reputation precedes you, positively.
At the risk of not taking Ryan's sage advice, could I ask you to actually point check which information has eased your concerns?
Not for my benefit but then it would actually demonstrate the positive feedback of this discussion, otherwise it looks like agitation with no productive reply.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I put it bluntly. Yes, it's fair to say that I worded it more harshly than needed, but it is still a very accurate description of how you have presented yourself.
This isn't YOUR community. This is OUR community. Think things through a little more rationally before you post, or the community will point out your folly for you.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
And yet they have. Here you now stand (yes, after some resistance) seeing some of your unfounded accusations about Paizo having been assuaged.
Consider yourself straightened out. And think on that as you continue to try to straighten me out. It may take you some time, but keep pushing at me ;)
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
AvenOats - First, I don't know why my original post looks like agitation. I express real sympathy for Paizo's business conundrum - how to move forward with a mature gaming brand is not easy task.
No, I did not mean that, I mean I wondered how serious you really were, as you just seemed genuinely worried (proven post record) but there was very little context to where your understanding was. All I saw was a list of arrived at BCS (bad case scenarios) instead of some leading questions... So I knew you were sincere: But subsequently did not BUILD on the info you found useful. As said, these sorts of concerns have been raised plenty, and if someone does not check your post history, they might decide that "not responding" - just makes everyone's efforts more productive - and if someone really wants info they'll easily find it off their own steam (not other people's). :)
The thing that offered me the most reassurance is that some of the posters here have clearly thought this through and done research and asked questions and are reasonably comfortable that this won't hurt the core Pathfinder game.
Some of the discussion of exactly how Goblinworks and Paizo will interact has also been helpful - though, in fact, the level of involvement by Paizo in the MMO project is actually larger than I understood.
Definitely! There's a lot of talent shared in both GW and Paizo. There was a break-down of the costs of the tech demo in that KS which you also find interesting in how the backer's raised capital was spent: Cooperative game development aka Crowdfunding & now Crowdforging in action.
I don't think I'm trolling - or uninformed - when I say that these gaming communities are fragile constructs.
We have to be nice to each other, especially at a time like this when big changes are afoot.
Well said. Manners cost nought.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Would it have been so hard for someone to link the threads they say answer the OP's concerns?
Not only would it have potentially avoiding 90 some odd negative posts damaging the community but it might have helped anyone else coming here with similar concerns.
@Ryan Dancey
You choose to base your game on the Pathfinder Brand. To so casually and insultingly disregard the concerns of a PnP player towards the impact of your project on both the brand and the PnP game is quite disapointing.
I would remind you that your are building PATHFINDER online, not RyanDancey's pet project online.
I have stated before that Pathfinder Online should not be a pvp griefer fest game, like eve online and so many other open world pvp games.
You have stated in many places that you share that same vision for this game.
Yet I see nothing in this thread but griefers, yourself included.