I don't understand the mechanical aspects of the baleful polymorph spell. It works like beast shape III except that it only serves to turn your target into a small animal.
Okay, so assuming that the target fails its Fortitude save, but makes its Will save, what happens to the creature mechanically? What is its AC? Can it speak? Can it cast spells or use Spell-like Abilities?
In my Red Hand of Doom campaign, the party wizard previously turned a dragon into a sparrow and I winged the results (no pun intended). Now he's done it again to a barbed devil, turning it into a bunny. I assume it no longer has spines and a "barbed defense". Can it use the barbed devil's SLA's Can it talk?
If it passes a Fort save, nothing happens. If it fails, it must make a Will save. If it passes the Will save, it's a bunny rabbit in its physical stats (so no barbs) but it keeps its spell-like abilities - as specified in the spell. If it fails the Will save, it becomes a rabbit mentally as well - it can't even understand language.
For the druid's Wild Shape ability, it likens it to Beast Shape, but adds that you can't speak while using it, implying that with other polymorph effects, you can speak. (See also the polymorph rules p211-212; a disadvantage of using Baleful Polymorph on enemies is that their equipment is melded into their bodies, making it hard to loot them.)
The bestiary has stats for bat, lizard, rat, raven, toad and weasel under Familiar - you could use any of them for calculating AC. Let's say a rat is closest to a rabbit. AC is then 14.
However, it keeps its hit dice, so it becomes a twelve hit dice rat/rabbit with around 48HP.
(Edit: The reply below is probably more correct.)
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1) Select in which " Small or smaller animal of no more than 1 HD" the target is polymorphed;
2) The target "lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form. You also lose any class features that depend upon form, but those that allow you to add features (such as sorcerers that can grow claws) still function."
3) The "gain any of the natural attacks of the base creature, including proficiency in those attacks." and "If the form you assume has any of the following abilities, you gain the listed ability: climb 30 feet, fly 30 feet (average maneuverability), swim 30 feet, darkvision 60 feet, low-light vision, and scent" (from Beast shape I), "climb 60 feet, fly 60 feet (good maneuverability), swim 60 feet, darkvision 60 feet, low-light vision, scent, grab, pounce, and trip" (from Beast shape II) and " burrow 30 feet, climb 90 feet, fly 90 feet (good maneuverability), swim 90 feet, blindsense 30 feet, darkvision 60 feet, low-light vision, scent, constrict, ferocity, grab, jet, poison, pounce, rake, trample, trip, and web" (from Beast shape III).
4) You change the target characteristic as follow: "Small animal: If the form you take is that of a Small animal, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Dexterity and a +1 natural armor bonus.", "Tiny animal: If the form you take is that of a Tiny animal, you gain a +4 size bonus to your Dexterity, a –2 penalty to your Strength, and a +1 natural armor bonus." or "Diminutive animal: If the form you take is that of a Diminutive animal, you gain a +6 size bonus to your Dexterity, a –4 penalty to your Strength, and a +1 natural armor bonus."
Edit: I hadn't included tiny
5) If the initial shape was smaller than small or larger than medium you apply this table changes too:
Creature's Original Size Str Dex Con Adjusted Size
Fine +6 –6 — Small
Diminutive +6 –4 — Small
Tiny +4 –2 — Small
Large –4 +2 –2 Medium
Huge –8 +4 –4 Medium
Gargantuan –12 +4 –6 Medium
Colossal –16 +4 –8 Medium
Let's look at our barbed devil, because dragons are wonky. He fails his fort save but makes his will save and becomes a bunny. Rabbits are probably size tiny (about the size of a housecat), so his strength drops by 2, his dex goes up by 4, and he gains +1 natural armor. This gives him a strength of 21 and dex of 27. The end result would look something like this:
Str 21, Dex 27, AC 31 (+8 dex, +11 natural, +2 size)
CMB +15 (+19 grapple), CMD 33
Melee attack bonus: +15 (but no melee attack abilities, see below)
He loses his natural attacks for being a barbed devil and gains none, since rabbits don't have natural attacks worth speaking of.
He also loses "all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on [his] original form", so Barbed Defense, Fear, Grab and Impale are all out. However, he retains his SP abilities, and may continue to use them.
Rabbits do not have the ability to speak, so the barbed devil does not either. It should be noted that Spell-like Abilities have no somatic or verbal components, and therefore can be used in devil or bunny form with the same ease.
Otherwise, everything else pretty much stays the same. All of its feats and skill remain (adjusted to the new ability scores), HD, HP, saves (again, adjusted), DR, resistances, immunities, known languages and ability to communicate telepathically.
His base speed may or may not change. I am unsure the base speed of a rabbit in Pathfinder, as I cannot find a proper analogue in a printed sourcebook. A sprinting rabbit is faster than a sprinting human, so the base speed might increase to 40.
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Rat Barbed Devil (Hamatula) CR ? [I used a rat as we have the full stats of the creature]
LE Tiny outsider (devil, evil, extraplanar, lawful)
Init +8 [increased dexterity]
Defense
AC 21, touch 16, flat-footed 13 (+8 Dex, +2 size +1 natural)
[the natural armor bonus is tricky. As written it should not be reduced as it is a SU or EX ability, but I feel it should be replaced by the new natural armor bonus. Note that a natural armor bonuses don't stack with another natural armor bonus, so he would have either +] or +, not +
hp 138 (12d10+72) (constitution or hd don't change)
Fort +14, Ref +16, Will +8
Defensive Abilities All SU or EX and dependant on the original form, lost
Offense
Speed 15 ft., climb 15 ft., swim 15 ft.
Melee bite +19 (1d3+5)
Special Attacks fear It retain it but he has no claw to use it,
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 12th) )all retained)
At will—greater teleport (self plus 50 lbs. of objects only), hold person (DC 17), major image (DC 17), produce flame, pyrotechnics (DC 16), scorching ray (2 rays only)
1/day—order's wrath (DC 18), summon (level 4, 1 barbed devil 35%), unholy blight (DC 18)
Statistics
Str 19, Dex 27, Con 22, Int 12, Wis 15, Cha 18
Base Atk +12; CMB +15; CMD 33
Feats Alertness, Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Improved Critical (claws), Iron Will, Power Attack
Languages Celestial, Common, Draconic, Infernal; telepathy 100 ft.
[can't speak but comprehend them, telepathy will work]
Special Abilities
lost Barbed Defense (Su) A creature that strikes a hamatula with a melee weapon, an unarmed strike, or a natural weapon takes 1d8+6 points of piercing damage from the devil's barbs. Melee weapons with reach do not endanger a user in this way.
Fear (Su) A barbed devil's fear attack affects any creature it damages with its claws. A DC 20 Will save resists this effect, otherwise the victim becomes frightened for 1d4 rounds. This is a mind-affecting fear effect. The save DC is Charisma-based.
lost Grab (Ex)A barbed devil can use its grab attack against a foe of up to Medium size.
lost Impale (Ex) A barbed devil deals 3d8+9 points of piercing damage to a grabbed opponent with a successful grapple check.
- * -
A hell of a rat :-)
I could have missed something, but not much. [corrected for tiny and not diminutive]
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Thanks, guys. Very helpful. I wish Hero Lab had a "baleful polymorph" button that would calculate all this for me!
If it makes the will save after failing the fort save...
What is its AC?
10+new dex mod + new size mod +ring of deflection + any spells on it +the natural ac from wildshape. They loose their armor bonus and their own natural armor bonus.
Can it speak?
No. Under the polymorph rules you are limited to the sounds an untrained animal of your new type can make, so you're stuck growling and squawking.
Can it cast spells
Only if it has natural spell, or it can use all the components of its new form. Someone polymorphed into a raccoon that can borrow a spell component pouch can probably pull off Silent spells. Someone polymorphed into a pig will need a silent, stilled spell.
or use Spell-like Abilities?
Yes. They activate by force of will, which the character still has if they've made the will save.
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Edit: I see I mistyped some text in the AC comment:
[the natural armor bonus is tricky. As written it should not be reduced as it is not a SU or EX ability, but I feel it should be replaced by the new natural armor bonus. Note that a natural armor bonuses don't stack with another natural armor bonus, so he would have either +1 or +10, not +11]
The DR and resistances come from his subtype (which he retains) and not on being a barbed devil. At least, it seems that way to me. If the SR stays, so should the other resistances.
I do agree that the natural armor bonuses probably don't stack.
Now the question is, did Pathfinder make polymorphing more confusing or less confusing than 3.5?
Now the question is, did Pathfinder make polymorphing more confusing or less confusing than 3.5?
More confusing in regards to negative polymorph effects like baleful polymorph, as well as polymorph any object. Everything else polymorph is absolutely less confusing.
If elemental resistances go, I'd say spell resistance goes too. Which fine by me. Makes Plymouth more transmutation and not just putting on a rubber suit.
*Thread Necromancy spell cast*
As far as I understand, the specific (the Baleful Polymorph spell text in this case) trumps the generic (the information on the Polymorph sub-school of Transmutation).
Baleful Polymorph spell text (bolded emphasis mine):
If the spell succeeds, the subject must also make a Will save. If this second save fails, the creature loses its extraordinary, supernatural, and spell-like abilities, loses its ability to cast spells (if it had the ability), and gains the alignment, special abilities, and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores of its new form in place of its own. It still retains its class and level (or HD), as well as all benefits deriving therefrom (such as base attack bonus, base save bonuses, and hit points). It retains any class features (other than spellcasting) that aren't extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like abilities.
So if the Will save is made, then the target creature keeps its Extraordinary, Supernatural, and Spell-Like abilities, plus any relevant spell-casting, class and HD (and derivative stats from that, including BAB, base saves, and hp), and class features.
Therefore the aforementioned sparrow would have a breath weapon, and the bunny would have barbs. In both cases the target's physical movement forms and most physical ability scores would take drastic hits (affecting Str-based damage and total hp), and size-based factors would change (worse CMB/D and natural AC modifiers, better Stealth, Fly, and attack/AC modifiers).
Spellcasting would still be possible, technically. It is arguable that the Polymorph sub-school information does apply here to restrict actual spellcasting (as opposed to spell-like abilities).
Also as per the Polymorph sub-school's information, certain magic items would continue to function.
Baleful Polymorph is not an automatic "Save or Suck" spell anymore. The target has to fail two different saves before the "Suck" condition applies. But if the target only fails the first save, then the spell can still significantly impede/de-buff the target, particularly with regard to physical movement forms, natural armour, Strength, Constitution, etc. The loss of certain item-related buffs can also be significant.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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all of your gear melds into your body.
Items that require activation cannot be used while you maintain that form.
you cannot cast any spells that require material components
you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form
any natural attacks and movement types
lose any class features that depend upon form
the GM is the final arbiter of what abilities depend on form and are lost
If it makes the will save, it still loses a lot and the GM determines what is lost.
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I was running a PFS scenario where a Succubus had restrictive tactics. Right off, the wizard Polymorphed her. But her spell-like abilities still worked, so her mooks held people off, her tactics went out the window, and she dominated the wizard. Then teleported away.
Somewhere out there, is a very scary bunny.
I don't believe the rat bunny would keep its spines, even with a successful will save. Though it keeps its EX abilities, the spines would still be dependent on its physical form, which is soft fur, not deadly spines.
I don't believe the rat bunny would keep its spines, even with a successful will save. Though it keeps its EX abilities, the spines would still be dependent on its physical form, which is soft fur, not deadly spines.
I believe that that would open up a can of worms when it comes to interpretation. Someone's bound to argue then that likewise, a dragon-turned-sparrow would not have a breath weapon, as sparrows normally don't have breath weapons.
Do we have any module-based examples of Baleful Polymorphed creatures?
Let's look at our barbed devil, because dragons are wonky. He fails his fort save but makes his will save and becomes a bunny. Rabbits are probably size tiny (about the size of a housecat), so his strength drops by 2, his dex goes up by 4, and he gains +1 natural armor. This gives him a strength of 21 and dex of 27. The end result would look something like this:
Str 21, Dex 27, AC 31 (+8 dex, +11 natural, +2 size)
CMB +15 (+19 grapple), CMD 33
Melee attack bonus: +15 (but no melee attack abilities, see below)He loses his natural attacks for being a barbed devil and gains none, since rabbits don't have natural attacks worth speaking of.
He also loses "all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on [his] original form", so Barbed Defense, Fear, Grab and Impale are all out. However, he retains his SP abilities, and may continue to use them.Rabbits do not have the ability to speak, so the barbed devil does not either. It should be noted that Spell-like Abilities have no somatic or verbal components, and therefore can be used in devil or bunny form with the same ease.
Otherwise, everything else pretty much stays the same. All of its feats and skill remain (adjusted to the new ability scores), HD, HP, saves (again, adjusted), DR, resistances, immunities, known languages and ability to communicate telepathically.
His base speed may or may not change. I am unsure the base speed of a rabbit in Pathfinder, as I cannot find a proper analogue in a printed sourcebook. A sprinting rabbit is faster than a sprinting human, so the base speed might increase to 40.
He would lose his original natural armor because that is also dependent on form.
- target fails the Fort save and makes the Will save: regular Polymorph rules apply, since Baleful Polymorph doesn't specify anything for this case (so, physical ability score adjustments, loss of abilities that depend on form, etc.)
But Baleful Polymorph does specify "in the negative". When the spell text specifically describes what more is lost if the target fails the second save, that same sentence goes on to list some abilities which are not kept at all as per the normal Polymorph sub-school rules. There is no need to list those abilities, unless they are only first lost at the second failed saving throw.
Polymorph sub-school:
"... While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form ..."
Baleful Polymorph:
"... If this second save fails, the creature loses its extraordinary, supernatural, and spell-like abilities, loses its ability to cast spells (if it had the ability) ..."
As another example of the specific trumping the generic, a druid's Wild Shape ability will not provide an escape from a Baleful Polymorph. Normally, according to the Polymorph sub-school information, the target can choose whether or not to allow the newer polymorph effect to supercede the older one.
I believe that that would open up a can of worms when it comes to interpretation.
Irrelevant, only the GM's interpretation matters explicitly in the rules:
the GM is the final arbiter of what abilities depend on form and are lost
Quite true, and as GM for the groups involved I wanted to make sure that any potential (and past) rulings were on a rock-solid basis. Hence my thread necromancy on the topic, and wanting to know if there was any module-based ruling.
For that matter, does Pathfinder Society have any rulings on this spell?
Turn a lvl 20 rogue into a bunny.
Get the Monty Python death bunny.
Fun fact, sneak attack is not typed as an ex, su, or spell-like ability. Therefore, it's one of the very, very few abilities a polymorphed person would keep, even if failing all the saves.
As beast shape III, except that you change the subject into a Small or smaller animal of no more than 1 HD. If the new form would prove fatal to the creature, such as an aquatic creature not in water, the subject gets a +4 bonus on the save.
If the spell succeeds, the subject must also make a Will save. If this second save fails, the creature loses its extraordinary, supernatural, and spell-like abilities, loses its ability to cast spells (if it had the ability), and gains the alignment, special abilities, and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores of its new form in place of its own. It still retains its class and level (or HD), as well as all benefits deriving therefrom (such as base attack bonus, base save bonuses, and hit points). It retains any class features (other than spellcasting) that aren't extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like abilities.
So Fort save - if it fails - as per beast shape III
Beast shape III reads (for tiny creatures):
When you cast this spell, you can assume the form of any Small, Medium, Tiny, Large, Diminutive, or Huge creature of the animal type. This spell also allows you to take on the form of a Small or Medium creature of the magical beast type. If the form you assume has any of the following abilities, you gain the listed ability: burrow 30 feet, climb 90 feet, fly 90 feet (good maneuverability), swim 90 feet, blindsense 30 feet, darkvision 60 feet, low-light vision, scent, constrict, ferocity, grab, jet, poison, pounce, rake, trample, trip, and web,Tiny animal: If the form you take is that of a Tiny animal, you gain a +4 size bonus to your Dexterity, a –2 penalty to your Strength, and a +1 natural armor bonus.
Also we need to look at the polymorph subschool section of the rules:
Each polymorph spell allows you to assume the form of a creature of a specific type, granting you a number of bonuses to your ability scores and a bonus to your natural armor. In addition, each polymorph spell can grant you a number of other benefits, including movement types, resistances, and senses. If the form you choose grants these benefits, or a greater ability of the same type, you gain the listed benefit. If the form grants a lesser ability of the same type, you gain the lesser ability instead. Your base speed changes to match that of the form you assume. If the form grants a swim or burrow speed, you maintain the ability to breathe if you are swimming or burrowing. The DC for any of these abilities equals your DC for the polymorph spell used to change you into that form.
So we note here - that you gain resistances and senses but don't loose them if you change forms - so DR and such are not lost.
In addition to these benefits, you gain any of the natural attacks of the base creature, including proficiency in those attacks. These attacks are based on your base attack bonus, modified by your Strength or Dexterity as appropriate, and use your Strength modifier for determining damage bonuses.
This means that we are good with whatever natural attacks the new form has.
If a polymorph spell causes you to change size, apply the size modifiers appropriately, changing your armor class, attack bonus, Combat Maneuver Bonus, and Stealth skill modifiers. Your ability scores are not modified by this change unless noted by the spell.
There is a chart for this - but what it means is we use the chart *first* and then modify according to the spell. For Tiny size we get:
+2 to attack and armor class
-2 to CMB and CMD
+4 to fly
+8 to stealth
space 2-1/2 feet
0 natural reach
When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body. Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function). Items that require activation cannot be used while you maintain that form. While in such a form, you cannot cast any spells that require material components (unless you have the Eschew Materials or Natural Spell feat), and can only cast spells with somatic or verbal components if the form you choose has the capability to make such movements or speak, such as a dragon. Other polymorph spells might be subject to this restriction as well, if they change you into a form that is unlike your original form (subject to GM discretion). If your new form does not cause your equipment to meld into your form, the equipment resizes to match your new size.
So no spells that require anything more than vocal components - and as a rabbit it can't speak so none of those - Supernatural abilities don't require these so they work - spell like abilities won't work in the new form at all
While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form. You also lose any class features that depend upon form, but those that allow you to add features (such as sorcerers that can grow claws) still function. While most of these should be obvious, the GM is the final arbiter of what abilities depend on form and are lost when a new form is assumed. Your new form might restore a number of these abilities if they are possessed by the new form.
So no abilities that were dependant on form. This is purely a GM call - does the barbed devil in your world have spikes that depend on their form - or do they grow from their body based on some other function of being a devil? Just be consistent with however you justify each choice.
- hero lab has a beast shape III function actually so lets use that:
rabbit devil CR 11
XP 12,800
Barbed devil (Pathfinder RPG Bestiary 72)
LE Tiny outsider (devil, evil, extraplanar, lawful)
Init +8; Senses low-light vision; Perception +21
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Defense
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AC 31, touch 20, flat-footed 23 (+8 Dex, +11 natural, +2 size)
hp 138 (12d10+72)
Fort +14, Ref +16, Will +8
DR 10/good; Resist acid 10, cold 10; SR 22
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Offense
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Speed 50 ft.
Melee bite +19 (1d3+7)
Space 2½ ft.; Reach 0 ft.
Special Attacks fear
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 12th; concentration +16)
. . At will—greater teleport (self plus 50 lbs. of objects only), hold person (DC 17), major image (DC 17), produce flame, pyrotechnics (DC 16), scorching ray (2 rays only)
. . 1/day—order's wrath (DC 18), summon (level 4, 1 barbed devil 35%), unholy blight (DC 18)
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Statistics
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Str 21, Dex 27, Con 22, Int 12, Wis 15, Cha 18
Base Atk +12; CMB +18; CMD 33
Feats Alertness, Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Improved Critical (claw), Iron Will, Power Attack
Skills Acrobatics +17 (+25 to jump), Diplomacy +13, Intimidate +19, Knowledge (planes) +16, Perception +21, Sense Motive +21, Spellcraft +12, Stealth +23, Survival +14
Languages Celestial, Common, Draconic, Infernal; telepathy 100 ft.
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Special Abilities
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Cleave If you hit a foe, attack an adjacent target at the same attack bonus but take -2 AC.
Combat Reflexes (9 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Damage Reduction (10/good) You have Damage Reduction against all except Good attacks.
Energy Resistance, Acid (10) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Acid attacks.
Energy Resistance, Cold (10) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Cold attacks.
Fear (DC 20) (Su) A barbed devil's fear attack affects any creature it damages with its claws. A DC 20 Will save resists this effect, otherwise the victim becomes frightened for 1d4 rounds. This is a mind-affecting fear effect. The save DC is Charisma-based.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in dim light, distinguishing color and detail.
Power Attack -4/+8 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Spell Resistance (22) You have Spell Resistance.
Summon (level 4, 1 barbed devil 35%, 1/day) (Sp) Summon other creatures as though casting a summon monster spell with a limited chance of success.
Telepathy (100 feet) (Su) Communicate telepathically if the target has a language.
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And if the will save fails - then it actually *becomes* the animal mentally - however the hit points and physical stats don't change - so you end up with a very tough to kill rabbit.
It shouldn't have an AC that hight, as it's natural armor bonus would be switched out for that of a rabbit.
How can there possibly be a thread about a devil turned into a bunny with a 21 Str, DR, Spell and Energy Resistance and yet not a single Monty Python reference in the thread yet?!?
She turned me into a newt!
It shouldn't have an AC that hight, as it's natural armor bonus would be switched out for that of a rabbit.
I gotta be honest - I'm looking - but polymorph nor beast shape do anything to natural armor except as noted in the size changes. They do specifically call out 'armor bonus' as going away but not natural - and the only things the original creature looses based on the original creature type are ex/sp/su that depended on the form. Natural armor isn't one of those....
I'd be willing to agree it's going to have various interpretations - but the spell isn't a 100% poof you are a rabbit - instead it's a twisted unnatural 'thing' that is part rabbit... part devil...
This is giving me cool ideas for an adventure where everything is twisted and nothing makes sense due to mass baelful polymorph changing everything into new things :)
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Natural armor generally stems from your physical anatomy. If you change to an alternate anatomy, you no longer have the same protection.
Natural armor generally stems from your physical anatomy. If you change to an alternate anatomy, you no longer have the same protection.
Sure if it were reincarnation - but it's not it's a spell - I picture a bunny with fur as hard as plate scales ;)
In all seriousness - my FAQ sense is tingling :)
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But Baleful Polymorph does specify "in the negative". When the spell text specifically describes what more is lost if the target fails the second save, that same sentence goes on to list some abilities which are not kept at all as per the normal Polymorph sub-school rules. There is no need to list those abilities, unless they are only first lost at the second failed saving throw.
Polymorph sub-school:
"... While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form ..."Baleful Polymorph:
"... If this second save fails, the creature loses its extraordinary, supernatural, and spell-like abilities, loses its ability to cast spells (if it had the ability) ..."
There's no contradiction there. Regular polymorph removes abilities tied to your form, failing the second save on Baleful polymorph in turn removes everything, including stuff that isn't dependent on your form.
There's no redundancy there, except insofar as that 'something' is a subset of 'everything'.
Natural armor generally stems from your physical anatomy. If you change to an alternate anatomy, you no longer have the same protection.
Sure if it were reincarnation - but it's not it's a spell - I picture a bunny with fur as hard as plate scales ;)
In all seriousness - my FAQ sense is tingling :)