Most improved classes in Player Core 2

[Deriven Firelion]

I did not expect this level of improvement for so many classes in Player Core 2. A lot of good quality of life improvements as well as power increases. Overall, I like almost everything I've seen.

Swashbuckler: I think this is the most improved class in the Remaster. It went from a techy class over-reliant on rolls to generate panache to probably the best pure dex-based warrior in the game. They made real intelligent mechanical changes to panache and that bravado trait allowed them a wide design space for feats. Adding the bravado trait and smoothing over the mechanics of the swashbuckler was a lot of real intelligent design work. I commend whoever worked on the swashbuckler. Well done. It looks great. My swashbuckler player who loves them is really excited to play one.

Alchemist: This class also looks a ton better. Between the huge number of new alchemical items and the mechanical changes, alchemist looks like the second most improved class in the game. Very playable now with a lot more endurance out of the gate.

Barbarian: Pretty good quality of life improvements making rage work all the time. No more getting knocked out then not being able to rage for a minute. Now it can drawn on as needed in combat. Instincts are a little better. Action economy a bit better as well. Overall good.

Sorcerer: Lost a little, gained a little. The class feels a bit more unique now leaning into the power of bloodlines. I like that sorcerous potency is a class feature now not easily poached. Makes them the king of blasting against like PF1. Loss of cross-blooded evolution hurts some, but it was too good as it was. Now it feels more like crossblood than a feat to pick up a random high value spell.

Investigator: Definitely better. Still a niche class, but still much better even for those that want to play one in any campaign. Allows their features to be used more often.

Champion: Not sure about this one. I'll have to see it in play. Looks roughly the same with less obvious upgrades. Wish they had completely rid the class of the need for Charisma as it has too many stats necessary to make it work for all its features.

Oracle: Definitely not sure on this one. Going to take time to figure how this class works now. Probably the biggest mechanically changed class in the remaster.

Monk: Not many changes. Tightened up Monastic weaponry. Weakened the monk archetype to make the monk master of Flurry of Blows.

Overall, I like the player core 2. Nice design work. Should improve the game and make more classes competitive choices in group play.

[magnuskn]

Deriven Firelion wrote:

Not sure about this one. I'll have to see it in play. Looks roughly the same with less obvious upgrades. Wish they had completely rid the class of the need for Charisma as it has too many stats necessary to make it work for all its features.

To be fair, you only need a +1 CHA modifier to trigger weaknesses with your Relentless Reaction for most causes. Having one to three more points of persistent spirit damage per round is nice, but not exactly a lot to look forward to. Only the Desecration cause calls out needing a +3 modifier to CHA.

I guess it's not so good that CHA is your spellcasting modifier if you take an offensive focus spell like Fire Ray with Deity's Domain, but I think that's also a bit of a corner case. Otherwise it seems fine to have CHA at +1 before level 9 and go from there.

Although, unless you play a DEX Champion, I wonder what else do you need the fourth attribute for? STR, CON and WIS are the essential stats, DEX is superfluous with a full plate wearing Champion and INT is nice if you want more skills at trained (in fact, I am looking forward to playing a Champion who starts with INT 14 to take the Investigator dedication to get Master Spotter at lvl 12). But otherwise, CHA seems to be the best investment to boost stuff like Diplomacy and Intimidation.

[Writena]

Monk: Not many changes.
Just like that picture(p235): Swashbuckler take the Water Sprint and flee, the Monk behind watch and see.
They still the Master of Flurry of Blows, and MASTER of unarmed attacks, not the Legendary of unarmed attacks.
Monk player feel so disappointed. Monk just like another Wizard in Remastered, boring and weak. Everybody gets thier new gear, but monk and wizard are forgotten in corner.

[Ascalaphus]

magnuskn wrote:

Although, unless you play a DEX Champion, I wonder what else do you need the fourth attribute for? STR, CON and WIS are the essential stats, DEX is superfluous with a full plate wearing Champion and INT is nice if you want more skills at trained (in fact, I am looking forward to playing a Champion who starts with INT 14 to take the Investigator dedication to get Master Spotter at lvl 12). But otherwise, CHA seems to be the best investment to boost stuff like Diplomacy and Intimidation.

Well it's nice if you want to repair your shield yourself. Higher item level shields do get a bit harder to repair after all.

But that is something that could be offloaded to an Int-based party member.

Also, not dumping Dex has things going for it too;
- non-damaging Reflex, like getting tripped or disarmed
- ranged weapons

[magnuskn]

Ascalaphus wrote:

Well it's nice if you want to repair your shield yourself. Higher item level shields do get a bit harder to repair after all.

But that is something that could be offloaded to an Int-based party member.

Also, not dumping Dex has things going for it too;
- non-damaging Reflex, like getting tripped or disarmed
- ranged weapons

Fair enough on that account, but it's a bit cornercase nonetheless. In any case, I think Champion is flexible enough now to allocate its fourth stat whereever it seems most useful.

[Deriven Firelion]

I tend to like to take Dex unless there is some real good reason to take charisma. I still would have rather had a flat damage bonus for the increased reaction than rely on building up Charisma.

[Deriven Firelion]

Writena wrote:

Monk: Not many changes.

Just like that picture(p235): Swashbuckler take the Water Sprint and flee, the Monk behind watch and see.
They still the Master of Flurry of Blows, and MASTER of unarmed attacks, not the Legendary of unarmed attacks.
Monk player feel so disappointed. Monk just like another Wizard in Remastered, boring and weak. Everybody gets thier new gear, but monk and wizard are forgotten in corner.

The monk is a crazy strong class. Sure, an offense monk with Legendary unarmed strike while giving up legendary unarmored defense would have been nice. You are really building your monks badly if they are looking weak in play, especially higher level play.

[SuperBidi]

I haven't read all the new classes. Those I have read:

Deriven Firelion wrote:

Barbarian: Pretty good quality of life improvements making rage work all the time. No more getting knocked out then not being able to rage for a minute. Now it can drawn on as needed in combat. Instincts are a little better. Action economy a bit better as well. Overall good.

A class that didn't need anything and got a significant buff. In my opinion the big winner of PC2, a bit like Rogue for PC1.

Deriven Firelion wrote:

Alchemist: This class also looks a ton better. Between the huge number of new alchemical items and the mechanical changes, alchemist looks like the second most improved class in the game. Very playable now with a lot more endurance out of the gate.

A lot of quality of life but I expect players to continue ranting about the Alchemist. The class hasn't changed on a fundamental level and the difficulty to play one well stays. The floor has been significantly raised but it's still subpar and the ceiling stayed sky high. Bombers will be loved as it stayed the "Alchemist for dummies" but the other Research Fields will continue to be dismissed by the majority of players.

Deriven Firelion wrote:

Oracle: Definitely not sure on this one. Going to take time to figure how this class works now. Probably the biggest mechanically changed class in the remaster.

A strictly better Divine Sorcerer. As I was considering the Sorcerer a top notch caster, it puts the Oracle beyond top notch. The big winner... if it was not losing all its flavor for pure mechanical efficiency.

[Perpdepog]

Deriven Firelion wrote:

Alchemist: This class also looks a ton better. Between the huge number of new alchemical items and the mechanical changes, alchemist looks like the second most improved class in the game. Very playable now with a lot more endurance out of the gate.

Which new items? Sorry, just clarifying if you were talking about alchemical items in PC2 I missed, or if you're more referring to the fact that we have lots more items now than when PF2E launched. I'm curious if there's anything really good and new in PC2 I missed.

[Tridus]

Deriven Firelion wrote:

Oracle: Definitely not sure on this one. Going to take time to figure how this class works now. Probably the biggest mechanically changed class in the remaster.

Oracle almost needs to be considered two different classes between these versions. A LOT of concepts you could build with the old Oracle don't work now. The mysteries lost most of what made them interesting, and the curses are insanely imbalanced to the point that the downsides range from "you won't even notice it most of the time" to "using your unique class feature a lot will get you killed or shut down your ability to function properly."

If you had no attachment to how it worked before/disliked the class and you just want to build a Divine spellcaster? Yeah, the new version does that pretty well. We already had Divine Sorcerer for that, but anyway.

If you liked the class before and were just hoping to see it get a tune-up, then these changes are awful and effectively ruined what folks liked. Effectively these changes are all aimed at making the class more appealing to people that didn't like it, at the expense of the people that did.

Quote:

Overall, I like the player core 2. Nice design work. Should improve the game and make more classes competitive choices in group play.

Most of Player Core 2 is pretty good. It has some glaring, messy issues that need errata, though. It feels like a book that came out before it was ready... and Oracle is what paid the price for it.

[Writena]

Deriven Firelion wrote:

The monk is a crazy strong class. Sure, an offense monk with Legendary unarmed strike while giving up legendary unarmored defense would have been nice. You are really building your monks badly if they are looking weak in play, especially higher level play.

May be you are right, I was being too judgmental。Monk is a solid class, and no class are really weak in this game.

But I still unsatisfied.

[anarchitect]

As a Swashbuckler player, I'm really excited about the changes.

I've been playing an All for One build. And the problem was, to do everything I needed to do in a turn, I needed 4 actions. 1 Action spent tumbling through to gain Panache, One action on a Finisher, 1 action to use All for One, and 1 action to use Dueling Parry. So unless one of the spellcasters chose to Haste me, I had to chose between protecting myself or helping someone else succeed. And it always felt silly to Tumble through each turn - that's some swashbuckler's style but I wanted to be a classic fencer.

With the changes, two things have improved my ability to gain Panache. The first is that the fiddly rules about gaining panache from All-for-one have gone away. Now you get panache if you succeed on the aid check, just flat. Combined with the remaster lowering the DC of aid checks, it basically means I cannot fail to gain panache off all-for-one. The other one is extravagant parry providing Panache if an opponent misses me. Not only is this another reliable source of Panache, but it makes parrying feel like it matters even if you don't get an opportune riposte out of it.

Together, this means I'm going to reliably gain panache during the space between turns. Either I use my reaction on All-for-one, which gives me panache, or I use my reaction on Opportune Riposte, which also gives me panache because if opportune riposte is triggered, so is Extravangant Parry.

This eliminates the need to spend my first action on each turn gaining Panache. So I can use a Finisher, followed by all-for-one, followed by Extravagant Parry, and I can reliably count on having panache again by my next turn. I no longer have to choose between helping my allies, protecting myself, and doing damage. I can do everything.

My only complaint is that since Extravagant Parry is not Dueling Parry, it doesn't count for feats that have dueling parry as a prereq like Dueling Dance. But all that did was save me an action a turn, which the changed rules already do, and I had to wait until mid to high levels to get it.