Is there anything stopping a fighter from using WA and a whip to attack everything within reach with a trip attack? If not, and assuming he has Combat Reflexes and a crazy high Dex, could he not then hit use the AoO from the Greater Whip feat to hit each if those creature with another special attack, such as disarm? Also, when does the AoO counter reset? If I have seven AoO per round, and use all seven during my action, am I SOL until the beginning if my next turn?
I believe you could do a whirlwind trip, but since the whip doesn't actually threaten an area, you would not be able to capitalize on all the AoO from tripping enemies. I have always played that your attacks of opportunity reset at the beginning of your turn, but I don't know of anywhere in the rules it states the specific moment they reset.
I agree with James Maissen's assessment of the situation.
You can't make AoOs with a whip, they don't threaten an area, even with whip mastery.
Actually you can, with Improved Whip Mastery: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/improved-whip-mastery-combat
Combat Patrol would allow me to threaten out to the limit of my reach with a whip, at 20th level. Combine that with an Enlargement spell to make me Large and I would threaten out to the full 25' of my new reach without moving. Correct? (Never did get a final answer on that Large whip reach question in the other thread, I believe...)
I second the lunge comment.
Now the feat letting a character threaten with a whip seems no different from a weapon that can normally attack adjacent and 10' distant.
Enlarged this should double to 5-20' then increased by combat patrol.
The difference is in the precise wording of the feat. Enlarged, your natural reach plus 5' would be 15'.
While wielding a whip, you threaten the area of your natural reach plus 5 feet.
I would likely not allow a whirlwind trip. Even if the rules as written don't disallow it. A reading of intent does. A whirlwind attack hits everthingthing threatened within the weapons range, if you stop in your attack to trip one of the people your attacking you are chosing not to attack the rest of the opponents in the circle.
....I would disagree. But that's just me. Whirlwind trip everyone around you, then AoO all those that fall (within your threatened area). Power-wise, at least, it's strong, but not broken, so I'd allow it.
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I would likely not allow a whirlwind trip. Even if the rules as written don't disallow it. A reading of intent does. A whirlwind attack hits everthingthing threatened within the weapons range, if you stop in your attack to trip one of the people your attacking you are chosing not to attack the rest of the opponents in the circle.
So what do you think of Rime Spell?
Also, do you know how many feats what the OP is talking about would require?
EWP: Whip
Weapon Focus (Whip)
Whip Mastery
Improved Whip Mastery
Combat Expertise
Improved Trip
Greater Trip
Dodge
Mobility
Spring Attack
Whirlwind Attack
Combat Reflexes
and probably Weapon Finesse to have the high Dex for Combat Reflexes
13 feats. A fighter spending every feat on this couldn't do it before level 11, when the wizards are tossing around 6th-level spells.
Pathfinder is brutal to martials attempting to do anything more interesting than "I poke him with my pointed stick for damage", and you would discard a rare interesting (but obscenely expensive) option out of hand because it might let the player actually have fun? Man I can't wait to play in your games sounds like a real blast let me roll up my autopilot DPR full-attacker assuming that's boring enough to earn your blessing.
Where would the wording of natural reach precisely be?
Page 278 of the CRB. "A humanoid creature whose size increases to Large has a space of 10 feet and a natural reach of 10 feet."
So an enlarged creature with a whip has a natural reach of 10', and the Improved Whip Mastery feat grants a threatened area of natural reach plus 5', therefore his threatened area is 15'. Not 20'. If you want to make a house rule for your home game, then great, but the text is clear.
ETA: I'm not being such a stickler for the literal wording just for the heck of it. This looks to me like a really interesting option, that could actually be PFS-legal. I would be interested in possibly making a PFS character that does this -- and for that, I have to take into account how it works without fudge.
I would likely not allow a whirlwind trip. Even if the rules as written don't disallow it. A reading of intent does. A whirlwind attack hits everthingthing threatened within the weapons range, if you stop in your attack to trip one of the people your attacking you are chosing not to attack the rest of the opponents in the circle.Mechanically, Trip merely replaces the melee attack involved. You're not "stopping" to trip anyone no more than you are "stopping" to attack an individual target. To trip using whirlwind attack, you're merely swinging your weapon towards someone's legs to sweep them out from under them. Sweep one d00d and just keep on going to the next.
Maybe its a failure of my imagination. But I envision whirlwind attack as either twirling or snaping the whip out is rapid succession hitting everything in the threated area. When I envision a trip attempt I see someone wrapping the whip around a single target and pulling the person off balance. Hence at least as I am picturing it I would not allow it. I guess the enemies could fumble all over each other and fall.
I just don't see how someone could possibly trip two different people in just six seconds. Also I cast Dazing Fireball followed by Quickened Fireball.
Maybe its a failure of my imagination. But I envision whirlwind attack as either twirling or snaping the whip out is rapid succession hitting everything in the threated area. When I envision a trip attempt I see someone wrapping the whip around a single target and pulling the person off balance. Hence at least as I am picturing it I would not allow it. I guess the enemies could fumble all over each other and fall.Might as well house rule a lot of whirlwind attacks as not viable. The whip in the first place would need to recover and lash out again, any stabbing weapon, polearms in general, etc.
Likewise you can force (as another houserule) polearm users to declare facing as there's no reasonable way to have them spinning around in a narrow corridor to threaten both in front of them and behind..
Sorry, accept it. But if you don't want to, enjoy your game.. but it doesn't have that much place in a rules' discussion. The 'I would not allow it' as a house rule doesn't have much of a purpose here. You might as well not allow a character to take all their iterative attacks before another can act (to make the interchange 'more reasonable') etc.
In other words, this is way into house rules in that you are wanting your picture to dictate the rules, rather than the converse.
-James
Are you suggesting that at certain times certain attacks aren't viable. Cause I have played plenty of cames where narrow corradors or environment hindered action. I was not disallowing any whirlwind attacks I was simply suggesting that using it to trip everyone in a 15 foot radius might streach the laws of physics. I get that it is a fantasy game but part of strategy, creativity and many of the reasons we play these games involes overcomeing limitations, engaging clever fixes to situation and so on. So can someone use whirlwind attack with a whip sure. Its just the nature of the weapon. As for pole arms using whirlwind attack makes perfect sense, even tripping with it. Its just apples and oranges.
The real problem with Pathfinder is that it gives fighters too many options and lets them get away with too many unrealistic things.
Unrealistic things? As in, larger than life? Fantastic, even? :p
The real problem with Pathfinder is that it gives fighters too many options and lets them get away with too many unrealistic things.
Roberta, I have yet to read a post of yours that I didn't like. It is a fine art to convey through text alone.
So, to summarize:
Nice summary! I wouldn't bother with something like Vicious Stomp, since the attack must be an unarmed strike. Assuming that we're still talking about with Whirlwind Attack, by the time you have all the other feats (including Combat Patrol), you'd be at least level 12, right? It has been a very long time since I played that high, but I think it would be more important to make sure you get the AoOs and can use them the way you want. I'm thinking Pin Down, some way to increase what size you're considered to be for combat maneuvers, and maybe Improved Precise Shot.
I know that last one sounds kind of crazy, so I made a new thread for it. My reasoning is that if it works for reach weapons, then you could eliminate that pesky soft cover with six levels as an archery ranger and no need to meet the pre-reqs. (Or you could just stay a fighter and meet the pre-reqs.)
ETA: Tandem Trip might be nice!
Is everyone reading a different version of Whirlwind Attack than I am? It explicitly says in the feat:
When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities.
So no, your Greater Trip is not active when you are Whirlwind Attacking.
In fact, your Combat Reflexes and Improved Trip are also deactivated, and if you have them so are Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (whip), Whip Mastery, and Improved Whip Mastery.
Is everyone reading a different version of Whirlwind Attack than I am? .No, we're all just reading it different from you. We don't impose non proficiency penalties on the attacks, etc
-James
Proficiency doesn't give a bonus, it removes a penalty. So EWP is unaffected. Weapon Focus gives a bonus, so it is deactivated during a Whirlwind Attack.
And so would weapon training weapon spec. If magic weapon special abilities are considered abilities so no +5 flaming or any of that. Better hope the wizard doesn't ready dominate for when you whirlwind cuz your Iron Will is gone. Heck toughness is a bonus so there goes you HD in HP. That might knock you out. See how ridiculous this gets. I'm fairly certain it's talking about bonus attacks not any kind of bonus.
You're going to have to explain to me how Weapon Finesse is providing you with bonus attacks.
I'm fairly certain it's talking about bonus attacks not any kind of bonus.
I considered that, but I checked and as far as I can tell there is no such thing in Pathfinder as a "bonus attack." Therefore, I think it makes more sense to read it as "you also forfeit any bonus... granted by other feats." Losing Iron Will wouldn't hurt you unless you're making will saves during your attack, and you wouldn't lose Toughness because it's not a bonus.
You're going to have to explain to me how Weapon Finesse is providing you with bonus attacks.
Nothing provides you with "bonus attacks", as far as I can tell. Bonuses are numbers that you add to other numbers, like Weapon Focus.
If it meant what you're reading it as, it would say bonuses. Otherwise it has an agreement error.
Also that would be stupid.
If it meant what you're reading it as, it would say bonuses. Otherwise it has an agreement error.
Also that would be stupid.
Where's the agreement error in "you also forfeit any bonus granted by other feats"?
Anyway, regardless of which way you read it, it's clear that you do not get to use Combat Reflexes when making a Whirlwind Attack.
Medusa's Wrath calls the extra attacks it gives Bonus attacks. For starters
I will get this clarified. Whirlwind will now state that you lose any additional attacks, but you should be able to use other feats, such as Weapon Finesse.
Note: That post is from Prerelease.
Whirlwind Attack didn't actually get changed from the text quoted further up in that thread.
What we can take this to mean:
At the time of posting, JB's intent was that Whirlwind doesn't remove actual bonuses (like weapon finesse), just extra attacks.
Since it didn't change, he might have changed his mind as to the intent of the feat.
OR, he could have decided that the feat works as written, since the majority of the posters read the feat that way (only the OP seemed to think it removed actual bonuses).
Since it makes more sense to read it that way, and that's what the intent was when JB posted, I think the 2nd interpretation is more valid. Whirlwind Attack does not remove bonuses, you just don't get extra attacks from high BAB, haste, TWF, etc.
Thanks for the clarification, Grick, looks like I was reading it wrong. Weapon Focus, Weapon Finesses and such should still work.
Combat Reflexes, however, is a feat that grants you extra attacks, so it would still not be active.
The chart text for Hellcat stealth uses the term bonus attacks.
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Thanks for the clarification, Grick, looks like I was reading it wrong. Weapon Focus, Weapon Finesses and such should still work.
Combat Reflexes, however, is a feat that grants you extra attacks, so it would still not be active.
If you're going with intent, why not use the whole intent?
The extra attacks are because (inexplicably) Whirlwind Attack uses a full-attack action, and normally you get extra attacks when using a full-attack action, so they wanted to specify you only get the attacks from Whirlwind, not your normal attacks from a full-attack.
The intent is you're giving up your regular attacks. "you can give up your regular attacks..." Those regular attacks are from BAB, haste, TWF, etc. The attacks you would normally get from a full-attack.
That text wouldn't be needed if Whirlwind attack said "As a full-round action..." instead of "When you use the full-attack action..."
Allowing someone to make one AoO during a whirlwind trip but not more (since they're granted by a feat) doesn't really make much sense.
Why would Greater Trip not be active? It doesn't grant you any attacks.