Okay, so I've had this Gunslinger NPC show up to help the party last time I played Kingmaker, and one of my players plans to make a Gunslinger for the Carrion Crown game we plan to run after that, but we've both run into a certain problem, which is reloading.
I checked the Pathfinder SRD about Weapon Cords and it says you can only pick up a dropped weapon as a Swift Action, not a Free Action. How will I be able to reload two guns when you need a free hand to reload a gun? I know that the combination of Rapid Reload and Alchemical Cartridges reduces it to a Free Action, but I still need a free hand. One Third Party Feat seemed like an option if nothing else works by the rules.
Well, there are several options. I am going to work off of the idea that you are the GM here. Quiet a few of the later suggestions are based off of GM caveats, and would likely be rejected unless the GM is the one suggesting them.
First is the creepy gun man. This is the typical build of using alchemist with the vestigial arm discovery or a witch with the prehensile hair hex to do the reloading for you. The witch can accomplish this with a one level dip, although it would only work for 1 minute per day, and would need a standard action to activate. Alchemist would give them mutagens, and possibly bombs or sneak attack. This is the common
Another option is to get rid of the idea of two separate guns entirely. The double gun has two separate barrels, and while the descriptions says that firing them both at once brings a -4 penalty, I always thought of that as if you pulled both triggers in one standard action. Separate use, possibly as a double weapon, could allow a doubling of fire rates. Not entirely sure how that is normally dealt with. Of course, many people still want to use two double guns to quadruple their rates. So moving on...
Next, you have the far easier to implement magical solutions. Reloading Hands is a spell to help in just such a scenario. It only reloads once per round though. You could justify that since it makes a pair of hands, you technically can have one paired with each of your real hands (since I always thought of it as one hand to hold the gun steady and one to do ammo) if that helps at all. This can be restricting normally since it lasts for rounds per level and you'd need someone to cast it. You could also look towards minor house rule options. A small golem, or really a bracelet with a small pair of arms for handling the ammo, could solve this problem. This should not be able to reload any faster than normal, instead only allowing the use of one arm for reloading.
Finally, you can just go for a bit of home ruling about a few relevant abilities. For example, you could stretch the definitions of how a tiefling's prehensile tail works. Even if direct use of the tail for reloading is too much, you might be able to at least stretch the rules to ease retrieval of your weapon corded guns. Or you could rule that quick draw helps you turn retrieval of a free action (within reason of course)
Yes, I am the DM. I do not consider the alchemist solution an option, but Reloading Hands seems to work.
I might make a magic item that has that effect usable a few times per day. Also, were Weapon Cords errata'd?
Well... you could rule that it's possible to hold (but not use) two guns in one hand.
So basically shift the left hand weapon into you right hand, then reload both guns, take it back into the left hand...
Obviously that stretches believability a bit when you start doing it 5 times a round but honestly shooting at the rate a gunslinger does even without two weapon already does that pretty good.
Endless Ammunition special ability for magical weapons instantly reloads too. Obviously it was meant for crossbows, and specifically stated that it did not work on fire arms, but that was because it would completely remove the need for rapid reload and that musket master deed that treated two handed guns as one handed ones. As you said, a "few times a day" would help to balance it. Maybe have it consume real ammo too.
Really, I am mostly bringing this up so that you can get an idea on the pricing for such an ability. A +2 bonus to price, plus the +1 necessary before adding such abilities onto weapons, would make acquiring or replacing them a hefty task until mid to late levels (especially in pairs). Even if you let them get the guns as loot, it had better be from a powerful BBEG, either from the enemy's cold dead hands or within its vile belly.
The NPC having that enchantment won't be a problem, since she hardly ever shows up.
Next time they see her, she's probably already got a pair of Pistols of the Infinite Sky anyway.
Okay, so I've had this Gunslinger NPC show up to help the party last time I played Kingmaker, and one of my players plans to make a Gunslinger for the Carrion Crown game we plan to run after that, but we've both run into a certain problem, which is reloading.
I checked the Pathfinder SRD about Weapon Cords and it says you can only pick up a dropped weapon as a Swift Action, not a Free Action. How will I be able to reload two guns when you need a free hand to reload a gun? I know that the combination of Rapid Reload and Alchemical Cartridges reduces it to a Free Action, but I still need a free hand. One Third Party Feat seemed like an option if nothing else works by the rules.
Starting with two identical loaded pistols on weapon cords, using Rapid Reload and alchemical cartridges (assuming at least +6 BAB with Improved Two-Weapon Fighting/Greater Two-Weapon Fighting):
Round 1 - Fire pistol #1 (primary), fire pistol #2 (off-hand), drop unloaded pistol #2 (free), reload pistol #1 (free), fire pistol #1, repeat last two steps until all primary weapon iterative attacks are used, reload pistol #1 (free), drop loaded pistol #1 (free), retrieve unloaded pistol #2 (swift), reload pistol #2 (free), fire pistol #2, repeat last two steps until all off-hand weapon iterative attacks are used, reload pistol #2 (free)
Round 2 - Fire pistol #2 (primary), reload pistol #2 (free), repeat last two steps until all primary weapon iterative attacks are used, drop loaded pistol #2 (free), retrieve loaded pistol #1 (swift), fire pistol #1 (off-hand), load pistol #1 (free), repeat last two steps until all off-hand weapon iterative attacks are used, reload pistol #1
Round 3 - Repeat the same sequence as round 2, starting with pistol #1 before retrieving pistol #2
Round 4 - As round 2
Round 5 - As round 3
...
You are only using a single swift action per round and reloading with free actions in between attacks.
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Technically you can also drop the second weapon at the start of your attack routine, reloading with that hand, then drop the second weapon, retrieving your first one and finishing off your iteratives with that hand. Since your attack routine is Main hand then off-hand for attacks, it works. I'm not a fan of it, but...
**EDIT** Ninja'd in detail, apparently, don't know how I have an 11 minute gap between my post and the one that explains things so much better...**
The Glove of Storing is also a pretty standard go-to.
Although not written in RAW, Quickdraw allows you to draw a weapon as a free action; it should let you holster a weapon as a free action as well! Then you fire both guns, holster one, reload, fire, holster the one you fired, quickdraw the first holstered, reload it, fire it, rinse and repeat.
Okay, so I've had this Gunslinger NPC show up to help the party last time I played Kingmaker, and one of my players plans to make a Gunslinger for the Carrion Crown game we plan to run after that, but we've both run into a certain problem, which is reloading.
I checked the Pathfinder SRD about Weapon Cords and it says you can only pick up a dropped weapon as a Swift Action, not a Free Action. How will I be able to reload two guns when you need a free hand to reload a gun? I know that the combination of Rapid Reload and Alchemical Cartridges reduces it to a Free Action, but I still need a free hand. One Third Party Feat seemed like an option if nothing else works by the rules.
Starting with two identical loaded pistols on weapon cords, using Rapid Reload and alchemical cartridges (assuming at least +6 BAB with Improved Two-Weapon Fighting/Greater Two-Weapon Fighting):
Round 1 - Fire pistol #1 (primary), fire pistol #2 (off-hand), drop unloaded pistol #2 (free), reload pistol #1 (free), fire pistol #1, repeat last two steps until all primary weapon iterative attacks are used, reload pistol #1 (free), drop loaded pistol #1 (free), retrieve unloaded pistol #2 (swift), reload pistol #2 (free), fire pistol #2, repeat last two steps until all off-hand weapon iterative attacks are used, reload pistol #2 (free)
Round 2 - Fire pistol #2 (primary), reload pistol #2 (free), repeat last two steps until all primary weapon iterative attacks are used, drop loaded pistol #2 (free), retrieve loaded pistol #1 (swift), fire pistol #1 (off-hand), load pistol #1 (free), repeat last two steps until all off-hand weapon iterative attacks are used, reload pistol #1
Round 3 - Repeat the same sequence as round 2, starting with pistol #1 before retrieving pistol #2
Round 4 - As round 2
Round 5 - As round 3
...
You are only using a single swift action per round and reloading with free actions in between attacks.
The problem with that is allowing all iteratives with one hand to occur before those of the other hand. I believe at some point one of the devs stated that the intention with two-weapon fighting is that you resolve one pair of two attacks before going on to the next iterative set. That is, if you have imp 2-weapon fighting, you take both attacks at full BAB before you take your two at BAB-5. However, you can take the two different attacks at the same BAB in any order, meaning you can reasonably get pistol 1, pistol 2, pistol 2, pistol 1 to work.
Not sure where I found this, and can't search for it right now. But it is a reasonable interpretation that I know I would use when GMing a gunslinger.
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Ok. So I actually have a word document now for this very reason because I see it multiple times a day here. Weapon Cords solve the problem. Below, I have listed why, with a link to another post that has direct quotes from both Sean K. Reynolds and Jason Buhlman.
If you choose to disagree with this as the DM, that's fine, but here's your daily proof that you can, indeed, dual wield pistols or crossbows effectively, and that the Lead Game Designers support it that way...
The only DM interpretation you would need is his personal limitation on free actions during a round.
If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either weapon first.
Let’s assume Gunslinger, GTWF, Rapid Reload, Alchemical Cartridges, Endless Bandolier, Pistols with Weapon Cords, full-attack action.
1)Fire all shots with main hand pistol, reloading after each shot including the last (free actions, off hand is currently free).
2)Use free action to drop main hand pistol (it’s already loaded, and retained by weapon cord).
3)Use swift action to recover off hand pistol from weapon cord (pre-loaded from previous round).
4)Fire all shots with off hand pistol, reloading after each shot including the last (free actions, main hand is currently free).
1)Fire all shots with off hand pistol, reloading after each shot including the last (free actions, main hand is currently free).
2)Use free action to drop off hand pistol (it’s already loaded, and retained by weapon cord).
3)Use swift action to recover main hand pistol from weapon cord (pre-loaded from previous round).
4)Fire all shots with main hand pistol, reloading after each shot including the last (free actions, off hand is currently free).
1)Repeat round 1's actions
1)Repeat Round 2's actions
Rinse, repeat. This is all completely RAW legal, but needs a DM input on how many free actions he can take during one round. It also takes away the dual wielder’s swift actions for anything else during the combat.
As the DM, I would allow it, as above, with the feat tax of Quick Draw due the the high amount of free actions required.