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Late night thought ...
If one was to reproduce Gandalf in Pathfinder, what would your build look like?
Yes, I know that it is a hard because Gandalf did things that no single class really encompasses ... but within the PF rule-set, how would you accomplish a build as close to the core of Gandlaf as you could get?
He looks human, but is much more closer to a aasimar if you delve into the books. He is listed as a "wizard" frequently, but seems to cast spells more like a sorcerer. Then again, that staff looks an awful lot like and arcane bond. And he obviously has a lot on skills in the knowledge areas ...
Specialist Wizard? Sage Sorcerer? Magus? ('cuz of the whole sword thing)
Thoughts?
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Wordcaster wizard demigod with access to the spellbond elven wizard archtype, the fast study arcane discovery and a couple of spell mastery feats.
Give him about a minute and he can put a spell together from memory, some specific spells he can do faster.
I dunno about Gabdalf but Gandalf is probably a Sorcerer with a staff.
I would have him build as some kind of outsider, lots of racial abilities, and some class levels for flavor.
Determining the extent of his powers, and choosing spells, is difficult, as the amount of magic he actually uses is quite small.
Wizard: Not really appropriate, as the whole spellbook part doesn't fit anywhere. Additionally his powers are innate rather than the product of study.
Sorcerer: In my opinion it would work better than the wizard.
Oracle: Might actually be to most fitting class. He is a divine being after all.
At the end of the day, the only thing we can be sure about is that he has Craft Wonderous Items and Pyrotechnics.
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Gandalf is a bard. The only magic he uses (at least in the core 4) could be described as illusion, enchantment, or bardic performance(oratory). Explains the longsword. Staff for sunburst or searinglight.
Gandalf's magic isn't nearly powerful enough for him to be a full-caster, unless you only make him fourth-level or something. I'm inclined to agree with Cult of Vorg and say Bard is the closest match.
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Gandalf is an outsider. Like many outsider's; he is proficient in martial weapons, he is highly skilled, he is long lived, he can use spell-like abilities, he has the ability to cast spells.
Now for me the question would be, "Does he cast spells from the arcane list or divine list?"
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Gabdalf?
I'd say Sorcerer, Dyslexian Bloodline.
*scnr*
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Bard. He uses a sword, can fight hand to hand, knows a lot about pretty much everything, but doesn't really cast all that many spells. He doesn't seem to wear any armour though, so it's no perfect fit. He also doesn't sing.
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Gandalf's magic isn't nearly powerful enough for him to be a full-caster, unless you only make him fourth-level or something. I'm inclined to agree with Cult of Vorg and say Bard is the closest match.
Magic worked differently in Middle-Earth. Gandalf and his fellow Istari were very powerful, but the magic was more subtle. He was able to fight off the Nazgul at Weathertop with his magic, though he did have to escape. You cannot compare what the magic looked like and say he didn't do much or wasn't very powerful, especially from just he movies. Magic in Middle-Earth had the potential to corrupt the wielder and needed to be used conservatively.
In this system and game world, if would absolutely be fair to make him a full caster. He was nearly immortal, living over a thousand years and a direct agent of the gods along with his fellow "Wizards". His primary area of power was fire, so I would actaully put him as an evoker. Yeah he didn't use a spellbook in the movies or books, but again, magic is different in Middle-Earth. I could definitely see him as an epic level wizard using the words of power system.
I would build him as a Wizard with 1 level dip to cavalier then eldritch knight.
Could use ranger instead of cavalier but I would not take fighter.
Shar is right, you cannot really compare middle-earth magic with DnD spellcasting.
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Sure you can. You just need to remember that DnD spellcasting is infinitely more powerful than middle-earth magic, which means you can't model middle-earth wizards as DnD full-casters above third level because DnD casters are inherently that much stronger.
Shar is right, you cannot really compare middle-earth magic with DnD spellcasting.
I agree.
If one was to reproduce Gandalf they would want him to interact with his peers with the same sort of mystery and power one sees in the novels. As such he would need to be wielding a fairly impressive array of spells when battle was met.
If you ever looked at Middle Earth Roleplaying and saw how they treated magic, and the abilities of the Lords of Middle Earth, you could not help but come to the conclusion that D20 wargaming mechanics do not come close to evoking the feel of Middle Earth. They are far more suited to a more gritty setting such as Warhammer. In comparison trying to use D20 to evoke Gandalf is much like trying to replicate the Mona Lisa using finger painting. If you really were determined to hammer a square peg with the round hole, I'd go with the 4th Edition Invoker class.
While I agree with LazarX's position that magic is VERY different in Middle Earth to D20, if you concentrate on the subtler spells and some fire magic Gandalf could be built if you follow the class abilities over spell-use. I always saw him as an aasimar multi-class Wizard 9 (arcane bond: staff)/Sorcerer 8 (celstial bloodline)/Ranger 7/Druid 6 (with no animal companion options)(CL 30) with the more subtle spell selection as Gandalf the Grey and Wizard 9/Sorceror 8/Ranger 7/Cleric 8 (with Turn Undead and the Sun and Fire Domains) (CL 32) as Gandalf the White. His resurection substituted Cleric levels for Druid and upped him a little bit.
This build gives him his wide array of abilities, a HUGE spell selection (while still being more subtle and lower level than the big combat spells of D&D) and give him the feats and attack level he needs to fight a Balor.
Just my suggestion. :)
OK, I have to correct myself. The above submission was how I USED to see him built with Pathfinder rules. With Mythic rules I would lop 3 levels each off the sorcerer and wizard classes, and 2 levels each off the ranger and druid classes. I would also substitute level for level with the cleric class rather than give him a boost of 2 levels upon resurecting. Then give him 10 Mythic Tiers along a Dual Path Heirophant and Marshal. That we have rules for and gives him a maximum of 3rd level spells to use.
So, Gabdalf is Gandalf?
That is what we are assuming.
And we all know what happens when we assume something...
:)
To conversions... and my vote is powerful outsider without classes.
I'd say 5th or maybe 6th level Fire Oracle, with a Massive Level Adjustment racial template.
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So, Gabdalf is Gandalf?That is what we are assuming.
And we all know what happens when we assume something...
:)
I knew Gabby Hayes was a Wizard.
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Middle Earth is a very, very low magic world when viewed from a Pathfinder perspective. To understand what Gandalf was you have to have some understanding of the theology of middle-earth.
Tolkien's mythos is based on an "all-powerful" one god who created a race of beings to serve him (the Ainur) along with a race of lesser beings (the Maiar) who served the Ainur. Together the Ainur and Maiar are known as the "Valar". To compare to Christian Theology the Ainur would be comparable to the arch-angels (Michael, Lucifer, Gabriel) and the Maiar would be comparable to the highest ranking angels. In essence the Ainur are the actual "gods" of Middle Earth and the Maiar are demigods.
Sauron was one of the first of the Maiar to betray the Valar and join Melkor (renamed Morgoth) who became the first "Enemy" and from whom all evil in middle earth was spawned.
Gandalf, Saruman, Radagast and the other "wizards" were Maiar sent by Manwe and the remaining Ainur to middle earth after the defeat of Morgoth to combat Sauron, who took on the mantle of the "Dark Lord" when Morgoth was captured. So Gandalf is a demigod. His powers are divine powers, not arcane powers. The only way to remotely accurately portray Gandalf in Pathfinder terms is as a divine outsider with spell-like powers and the ability to cast spells. His staff appears to be an artifact, created by the Ainur and a major source of his power. When Gandalf breaks Saruman's staff, Saruman's powers are greatly diminished.
So Gandalf is a demigod with an artifact.
Magic is so subtle and rare in middle earth that you simply can't "create" Gandalf in any class level sense. Outside of the remotely described battle on Weathertop, the most powerful magic Gandalf wields is comparable to a scorching ray spell or possibly a fireball. You could credibly recreate Gandalf's powers with a fifth or maybe seventh level wizard, cleric or druid.
One of the indications of how low magic Middle Earth actually is, is the fact that martial characters like Aragorn or Elendil actually are powerful enough to destroy the spellcasters. Heck, even Eowyn is able to kill the Witch-King of Angmar with a sword thrust.
There's really no point in trying to recreate Tolkien characters in Pathfinder rules. The worlds are just vastly incompatible in every conceivable way.
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It depends on the role you want your recreated Gandalf to play. If he's an NPC then just leave him as an un-statted plot device... he can do whatever you need him to be able to do to move the plot forwards in an interesting manner. That's the closest you'll get to any fictional character, if we're getting technical... ;)
If you're looking for a PC who acts a lot like Gandalf is seen to act, then I'd go for a Staff Magus - good selection of 'blasty' fire spells and the like, but can also one-hand a staff with a longsword in the other hand.
Just IMHO, of course... ;)
Gandalf is a magical, celestial being; according to Tolkien. He was a powerful spirit convinced to go to Middle Earth in a mortal form by the all powerful creator spirit.
In d20, to make him as an actual, playable race/class, I would say human (cursed with the weariness and worries of a mortal form) Cleric. (combat abilities and magic befitting his capabilities.)
Otherwise... Some form of lesser god with levels in Cleric or Sorcerer.
Deus ex machina explains Gandalf.
The Hobbit =
Would say Gandalf is a Druid. In fact i believe he was the inspiration for the druid class. Many of his spell were druid spells in 1st ed AD&D. Even Flesh to Stone was a 1st ed Druid spell, thanks to him i think.
Lord of The Rings =
Would say Gandalf is a Wizard. He was the inspiration for the wizard class in 1st ed AD&D.
But the above is based on 1st ed works, when AD&D came out and 40 years of this.
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If i was creating Gandalf today in Pathfinder, Would say Sorcerer.
Hobbit = Fey blood line.
Lord of the Rings = Celestial blood line.
P.S = Would say Middle-Earth was a 6-9th level game setting.
So, Gabdalf is Gandalf?That is what we are assuming.
And we all know what happens when we assume something...
:)
Of course you could always simply read the OP... heaven forbid we don't get hung up on a thread title.
Man I say we build Gabdalf instead because that sounds like a dude who knows how to party.
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Man I say we build Gabdalf instead because that sounds like a dude who knows how to party.
Or at least talks a lot! ;)
Humor buddy. Look into it. :)Of course you could always simply read the OP... heaven forbid we don't get hung up on a thread title.
So, Gabdalf is Gandalf?That is what we are assuming.
And we all know what happens when we assume something...
:)
LOL!
No he wasn't. the Wizard was taken fully from Vance's Dying Earth which featured spells called "The Most Excellent Prismatic Spray". For that matter Tolkien himself had Odin in mind when creating the character.
THAT I can definitely see.
So Gandalf is a demigod with an artifact.
Two artifacts. He wore Narya the Great, the Elven Ring of Fire.
I think even more interesting would be Merlin...
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Well, I was being a little frivolous. But you are on target, I think.
Being a Maia of Aule, Gandalf already had something of an affinity for fire. He tells the Balrog he's a servant of the secret fire and wielder of the flame of Anor. He's not talking about Narya--the secret fire, in the Ainulindale, is the creative spark of Iluvatar himself, by which he made the world. He's claiming to be a servant of the highest power. Anor is the sun, which in Middle-Earth is a vessel for the light of the gods. Most of the "magic" he does is fire and light based: blinding the goblins in goblin town with a flash of light, hurling flaming pine cones at the goblins outside, the talk about making a fire in the Redhorn Pass, the lights atop Weathertop, striking the wolves in Eregion with fire, etc.
That he also possessed the Ring of Fire probably served to enhance his own native power over fire. The elven-rings were said to have power to preserve, although this doesn't necessarily translate into personal defenses.
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Could be an interesting exercise merely to list PF equivalents to the powers he was observed to use in the books.
Hurling flaming pinecones at the goblins in the Hobbit: produce flame
The blinding flash in Goblin Town: pyrotechnics
Communicating with various critters: speak with animals
Lighting the end of his staff in Moria: light
Attempting to open the gates of Moria: knock, open/close
Making the horses appear in the flood at the Fords of Bruinen: silent image
Removing Saruman's influence from Theoden: remove curse? dispel magic? protection from evil? break enchantment?
Any others I'm missing?
In the Hobbit it was not Gandalf who turned the trolls into the stone but they fought with each other until the sun came and the sun is what turned them to stone.
In the Hobbit it was not Gandalf who turned the trolls into the stone but they fought with each other until the sun came and the sun is what turned them to stone.
Yeah, all Gandalf did was distract them so that they wouldn't realize that it was getting so late. He was hiding in a bush and imitating their voices if I recall correctly.
(In the Ranklin & Bass animated movie "The Hobbit," Gandalf summons the sun to turn the trolls to stone)
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In the Hobbit it was not Gandalf who turned the trolls into the stone but they fought with each other until the sun came and the sun is what turned them to stone.Yeah, all Gandalf did was distract them so that they wouldn't realize that it was getting so late. He was hiding in a bush and imitating their voices if I recall correctly.
(In the Ranklin & Bass animated movie "The Hobbit," Gandalf summons the sun to turn the trolls to stone)
Oh yeah! ventriloquism
Pipe smoke rings: prestidigitation
"You shall not pass!": wall of force?
self-evident: snapdragon fireworks
shutting the doors against the Balrog in Moria: hold portal or arcane lock