staff magus.
High Acrobatics Skill and Grapple to smote that dang Balrog's ruin upon the mountainside.
"You shall not pass!": wall of force?Intimidation attempt maybe?
Bluff check. He was just pretending to cast a spell that would keep the Balrog from passing, and the demon fell for it.
Pipe smoke rings: prestidigitation
"You shall not pass!": wall of force?
self-evident: snapdragon fireworks
shutting the doors against the Balrog in Moria: hold portal or arcane lock
@thejeff and @ Charlie Bell I am not sure that it was spell that Gandalf cast.It was probably the balrog saying bring it.
So Gandalf is a demigod with an artifact.Two artifacts. He wore Narya the Great, the Elven Ring of Fire.
Heh, I almost edited my post to add that, then decided to wait to see if anyone would correct it. You are correct, of course.
Gandalf blocked the Balrog by breaking his staff against the bridge, destroying the bridge and causing the Balrog to fall into the abyss. It would have worked too, if not for the Balrog's meddling whip.
This was the direct inspiration for the 2e ability "retributive strike" whereby a staff could be destroyed in a catastrophic explosion.
The great majority of Gandalf's "spellcasting" in The Hobbit or LoTR could very much be accomplished with Pathfinder cantrips.
The rare examples of magic above the cantrip level mostly do not have a Pathfinder equivalent, but some might.
Gandalf unleashed his true power only a handful of times in both books. Here is (from my defective aging memory) a list of those times, with some commentary:
1. He blesses Barliman Butterbur's beer at "The Prancing Pony", resulting in exceedingly tasty beer for a year afterward. I know of no PF spells which duplicate this effect.
2. He faces down five Nazgul on Weathertop, the battle raging so violently that Aragorn and the Hobbits see the lights from miles away, and when they reach Weathertop, the area is scorched and burned from the spells cast. This implies spells at least comparable to lightning bolt, fireball, scorching ray, etc. But nothing higher than third level spells is required to duplicate this effort.
3. He effectively exorcises Saruman from Theoden's mind, restoring Theoden's youth and vigor. Presumably this could be represented by "Dispel Magic" or at the highest, "Remove Curse."
4. He tosses a bunch of flaming pine cones at wargs and goblins, but the narrative here suggests that he was on the verge of tossing HIMSELF onto the goblins and wargs in an explosive suicidal blast. The flaming pine cones could be modeled with "magic stone" or some other low level evocation spell, but there isn't any suicidal blast spell I know of. Lucky those eagles arrived.
5. He repels the Nazgul with a shining light from his staff to save Faramir. This could well be "Turn Undead", or "Protection from Evil" cast at a high level.
6. He uses a "word of command" to stop the Balrog, the strain of which broke the stone and caused a massive cave-in. This was after his "hold portal" spell failed. The "word of command" is hard to quantify since there is no real PF spell that I can think of. In fact the closest thing I can think of that would have had the effect might well have been a "wish" spell. This "word of command" spell is, I think, the single most powerful spell that Gandalf cast in both books.
If anything the most striking thing about Gandalf's magic use in "The Hobbit" and "LoTR" is not how powerful he was, but how little magic he actually used.
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I think Gandalf might have been a cleric, or at least a divine caster. He evokes other entities "I am a servant of the Secret Fire", bestows blessings, wields pine cones as weapons, uses an ability sneakily similar to an exorcism or restoration on Theoden, is proficient with at least one martial weapon, uses abilities reminiscent of Turn Undead or Channel Energy...
I would almost say his "flavor", what with the talking to animals, his bond with his horse, etc. makes him more a druid than anything else, but the sword wielding throws a kink in that...
So, Cleric with the Animal and Fire domains? And I would hazard that the favored weapon of the Secret Fire is the longsword?
I know in the Hobbit he uses Fireball spell against the wolves they get attacked by so yeah...
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lol srsly what Balrog uses a trip build after level 10?
I MEAN COME ON
I know in the Hobbit he uses Fireball spell against the wolves they get attacked by so yeah...
Hmm.... I admit it has been well over a decade since I last read "The Hobbit", but I don't recall a fireball cast against the wolves. The most dramatic spell I recall Gandalf casting in their wolf fight was the one he cast on the pinecones which was described as having some sort of enchantment on it that caused the flames to be almost impossible to put out and to leap from wolf to wolf (and wolf to tree) if they got too close such that soon there were many wolves on fire until the goblins finally decided to put all the wolves out and then allow the fires set from the wolves to start a forest fire which they expected to roast the dwarves and Gandalf. In the end though it was the forest fire which drew the attention of Gwahir, Lord of the Eagles, who then came to Gandalf's rescue.
lol srsly what Balrog uses a trip build after level 10?I MEAN COME ON
Well, maybe that explains why this particular Balrog was still skulking around in Khazad-Dum 3,000 years after the defeat of Morgoth...
I know in the Hobbit he uses Fireball spell against the wolves they get attacked by so yeah...Hmm.... I admit it has been well over a decade since I last read "The Hobbit", but I don't recall a fireball cast against the wolves. The most dramatic spell I recall Gandalf casting in their wolf fight was the one he cast on the pinecones which was described as having some sort of enchantment on it that caused the flames to be almost impossible to put out and to leap from wolf to wolf (and wolf to tree) if they got too close such that soon there were many wolves on fire until the goblins finally decided to put all the wolves out and then allow the fires set from the wolves to start a forest fire which they expected to roast the dwarves and Gandalf. In the end though it was the forest fire which drew the attention of Gwahir, Lord of the Eagles, who then came to Gandalf's rescue.
They climb up in the trees to avoid the wolves and that's where Gandalf fries them with a Fireball spell.
They climb up in the trees to avoid the wolves and that's where Gandalf fries them with a Fireball spell.I know in the Hobbit he uses Fireball spell against the wolves they get attacked by so yeah...Hmm.... I admit it has been well over a decade since I last read "The Hobbit", but I don't recall a fireball cast against the wolves. The most dramatic spell I recall Gandalf casting in their wolf fight was the one he cast on the pinecones which was described as having some sort of enchantment on it that caused the flames to be almost impossible to put out and to leap from wolf to wolf (and wolf to tree) if they got too close such that soon there were many wolves on fire until the goblins finally decided to put all the wolves out and then allow the fires set from the wolves to start a forest fire which they expected to roast the dwarves and Gandalf. In the end though it was the forest fire which drew the attention of Gwahir, Lord of the Eagles, who then came to Gandalf's rescue.
What I described is what I remember from them climbing up the trees. As I said, I don't remember anything that resembles a "fireball" being cast. Just the pinecones with the enchanted fire. I'll look it up tonight. I do accept that something like fireball was almost certainly used at Weathertop, but that's the only place I remember that sort of direct energy-based magic being demonstrated (and then, only at a remote distance) by Gandalf.
lol srsly what Balrog uses a trip build after level 10?I MEAN COME ON
hey, it threw quite a wrench in the party though, so it's not completely useless.
Yes I was wrong it was not a fireball spell. I was close but not correct here is the segment right from the book THE HOBBIT. (Some may choose to not read as they may consider it a spoiler.)
"Gandalf gathered the huge pine cones from the branches of the tree. Then he set one alight bright blue fire, and threw it whizzing down among the circle of the wolves. It struck one on the back, and immediately his shaggy coat caught fire, and he was leaping to and fro yelping horribly. Then another came and another, one in blue flames, one in red, another in green. They burst on the ground in the middle of the circle and went off in coloured sparks and smoke."
From THE HOBBIT (page 113).
Yes I was wrong it was not a fireball spell. I was close but not correct here is the segment right from the book THE HOBBIT. (Some may choose to not read as they may consider it a spoiler.)
"Gandalf gathered the huge pine cones from the branches of the tree. Then he set one alight bright blue fire, and threw it whizzing down among the circle of the wolves. It struck one on the back, and immediately his shaggy coat caught fire, and he was leaping to and fro yelping horribly. Then another came and another, one in blue flames, one in red, another in green. They burst on the ground in the middle of the circle and went off in coloured sparks and smoke."
From THE HOBBIT (page 113).
Yeah, pretty much exactly what I said. :)
Yeah, pretty much exactly what I said. :)Yes I was wrong it was not a fireball spell. I was close but not correct here is the segment right from the book THE HOBBIT. (Some may choose to not read as they may consider it a spoiler.)
"Gandalf gathered the huge pine cones from the branches of the tree. Then he set one alight bright blue fire, and threw it whizzing down among the circle of the wolves. It struck one on the back, and immediately his shaggy coat caught fire, and he was leaping to and fro yelping horribly. Then another came and another, one in blue flames, one in red, another in green. They burst on the ground in the middle of the circle and went off in coloured sparks and smoke."
From THE HOBBIT (page 113).
You don't have to be rude and snobby about it.
You don't have to be rude and snobby about it.
LOL, but I put a smiley face!
Props to you for admitting you misremembered though.
I think the flaming pinecones would be multiple fire seed spells as they explode on impact so he would have to have at least 11 levels in druid. So we know he has 11+ druid and if it was a force wall he used against the balrog he had to be an 9th lvl wizard so we see he had to have been at least 6 wizard 6 druid and 5 lvls. mystic theurge for a total of at least 17th lvl. Then theirs the fact he must have some lvls. in cavalier or fighter as he can wade into battle and take on even the strongest of opponents.
4. He tosses a bunch of flaming pine cones at wargs and goblins, but the narrative here suggests that he was on the verge of tossing HIMSELF onto the goblins and wargs in an explosive suicidal blast. The flaming pine cones could be modeled with "magic stone" or some other low level evocation spell, but there isn't any suicidal blast spell I know of. Lucky those eagles arrived.
LOL, if you want Gandalf to be a CL 20 druid/wizard/mystic theurge/cavalier knock yourself out. Not doing much of a job of convincing me.
These efforts to recreate literary characters (Gandalf, Merlin, Elric, Muad-Dib, Lancelot, Conan, etc.) as Pathfinder builds are essentially the RPG equivalent of ink blot tests. What people see says more about them than it says about the subject.
staff magus.
Half-Celestial Human Staff Magus, to be precise.
First off, Gandalf is a Maiar, a powerful spirit given mortal form. He is clearly proficient with both swords and staves, capable of wielding staves in one hand, and all of the visible magic effects he wields in The Hobbit have to do with fire and light, but most of the time he relies on weapons in combat. So magus for sure.
I agree with you but others were saying he was 9th lvl. and I just wanted to point out he was far beyond 9th as in demi-godlike even if he did not use spells all the time.
Well, since I would peg Gandalf as described in "The Hobbit" and "Lord of the Rings" as being roughly comparable to a fifth level full caster in Pathfinder, I suspect you and I don't agree on how powerful Gandalf is.
But that's the point of my post. Gandalf is not a Pathfinder character. He is a literary figure who is as powerful as the author felt he needed to be for the story he was trying to tell. Gandalf doesn't conform to any Pathfinder rules and trying to "rebuild" him in Pathfinder terms is an exercise in self-delusion. It can be fun, but it's entirely pointless since a dozen random Pathfinder players would peg Gandalf anywhere from a typical fifth level druid to an epic level multi-classed hyper-optimized munchkin.
Tolkien's world was deliberately low in magic so that the non-magical characters, who made up the bulk of his heroes, were still relevant. That means his magical characters did not need much magic at all to be awesome in comparison.
Some people use the following logic: "Gandalf was awesomely powerful in LotR, therefore he should be an awesomely powerful Pathfinder build."
That logic is simply fundamentally and fatally flawed. But that's how we end up with Gandalf as an epic level multi-classed cosmic reality altering super-being.
If he had been that powerful in the actual books, he'd have simply teleported to Mt Doom, dropped the ring in and been done with it.
In the LOTR book when Gandalf falls down the pit with the Balrog he falls for weeks and fights it for weeks while falling day after day. Gandalf is extremely powerful, almost an immortal like character.
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In the LOTR book when Gandalf falls down the pit with the Balrog he falls for weeks and fights it for weeks while falling day after day. Gandalf is extremely powerful, almost an immortal like character.
As I said, the logic seems to be "In LotR Gandalf is a demigod and an immortal, therefore he must be demigod powerful in Pathfinder terms." I suppose once you decide that this is the case, it's rather pointless to try to point out how remarkably limited Gandalf's powers actually were.
Just for example, show me in LotR where Gandalf was even able to duplicate the vast majority of cantrips or first level spells like create water, levitate, vanish, expeditious retreat, mage armor, shield...
I mean sure, you WANT Gandalf to be an awesomely powerful super being in Pathfinder terms, but honestly my ninth level druid would crush Gandalf like a bug.
Just for example, show me in LotR where Gandalf was even able to duplicate the vast majority of cantrips or first level spells like create water, levitate, vanish, expeditious retreat, mage armor, shield...Show me in Dragonlance where Raistlin was ever able to duplicate the vast majority of cantrips or first level spells like create water, levitate, vanish, expeditious retreat, mage armor, shield...
And he was definitely a high level D&D wizard by the end. By my understanding he was canonically level 20 at the start of the time travel trilogy.
Good Lord, are you actually taking a D&D generated character and comparing that to a literary figure? Seriously?
OK, you guys win. Gandalf was clearly a level 20 wizard/druid/mystic_theurge/cavalier built on a celestial outsider template.
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Different editions, actually, mean equal level wizards can't do equal things.
Show me where and how Elminster can create the World's Largest Fireball - which canonically he did - despite being something a 36th level multi-classed character (with a 25th caster level wizard, 3rd caster level cleric) in 3.X edition stat-ups. Note: he didn't have Epic Spellcasting (to make epic sized fireball-like effects), enlarge or widen spell metamagic feats, or any other ability to make his fireballs bigger. But in literature, suddenly, he could because, you know, that's cool.
There's a huge difference in what can be done in literature and what can be done in games, and how that effects things.
Just for example, show me in LotR where Gandalf was even able to duplicate the vast majority of cantrips or first level spells like create water, levitate, vanish, expeditious retreat, mage armor, shield...Show me in Dragonlance where Raistlin was ever able to duplicate the vast majority of cantrips or first level spells like create water, levitate, vanish, expeditious retreat, mage armor, shield...
And he was definitely a high level D&D wizard by the end. By my understanding he was canonically level 20 at the start of the time travel trilogy.
Good Lord, are you actually comparing a D&D generated character and comparing that to a literary figure? Seriously?
OK, you guys win. Gandalf was clearly a level 20 wizard/druid/mystic_theurge/cavalier built on a celestial outsider template.
AD, Raistlen was a D&D generated figure, for Dragonlance, a D&D setting for D&D effects and games to be played in using D&D rules. He didn't actually conform to those rules, but he was generated - as a literary figure - for the express purpose of representing that world.
Fact is, a 3.X or PF 20th lvl wizard would destroy a 1st or 2nd edition (advanced or otherwise) 20th level wizard. More hit points, scaling DCs, more spells per day, quicker to memorize and cast, and more variety within effects. (Of course, that's presuming 3.X rules trump 1st Ed rules when the creatures interact... something that's a conundrum and prone to argumentation anyway.) Similarly, if smart about it, a 20th lvl 3.X or PF wizard would annihilate a 20th lvl 4E wizard... presuming save DCs for the 3.X stuff carry over (instead of the 4E "10 or higher = successful save" effect or required attack rolls v. static high defenses).
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Ive got it. gnome Illusionist.
For me Gandalf's powers are a mystery. You just don't really know what he truly is capable of. He is full of suprises of all kinds, and always made the Hobbits feel safer.
A low magic E6 game, I'd say. The only magic items are magic swords and a handful of homebrew items, some of which are cursed.
Edit: Magic items I can recall: the Rings, the elven cloaks, three magic swords, the Phial of Galadriel, Sam's dust of growing things, the Ent-draught, the palantír
He doesn't just have a celestial template, he's a probably about a 15 HD outsider with no actual wizard levels in sight.
I think even more interesting would be Merlin...
Wasn't he a half-fiend by the way?
I heard his dad was an incubus and whatnot.
Gandalf is best reflected as a paladin (possibly multi-class) outsider IMHO. Sounds funny I know but check out what Gandalf could do.
Devoted to the cause of good (works for a paladin)
Has divine powers (paladin)
Wields a longsword (paladin martial weapon prof and full BAB)
Bonded, special horse mount which he could summon (paladin bonded mount)
Inspiring presence - gandalf bolstered and guided those around him with his presence, wisdom and leadership (paladin auras)
Was particularly good at battling evil outsiders like the Balrog (Smite Evil. Plus this famous line which I couldn't resist including "Until at last, I threw down my enemy and smote his ruin upon the mountainside ..." Yes, Yes, I know a quote doesn't mean it's an ability he has, I just thought it was a cool thematic thing to toss in there)
Spells - Gandalf didn't cast many, and what he did were usually very subtle. Cleric and paladin spells reflect some of what he did:
Light (Mines of Moria)
Searing Light (used it to drive off nazgul at battle of Minas Tirith)
Dispel Evil or maybe Dispel Magic or Protection from Evil (driving Saruman's possessing spirit out of King Theodin)
Of course there are some spells he cast that paladins don't have:
Produce Flame (in The Hobbit when worgs and goblins have the heroes cornered up a tree)
Others?
So he would probably be built as a paladin with levels of other classes.
And I agree with others that there's no way you can truly reflect Gandalf in any game other than Middle Earth, but it's a blast to try.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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Gandalf blocked the Balrog by breaking his staff against the bridge, destroying the bridge and causing the Balrog to fall into the abyss. It would have worked too, if not for the Balrog's meddling whip.
This was the direct inspiration for the 2e ability "retributive strike" whereby a staff could be destroyed in a catastrophic explosion.
I was thinking maybe shatter for that, but iirc shatter wouldn't work against something that big. I don't think a full-blown blast-yourself-into-another-plane retributive strike is the thing. You could be quite right about the inspiration bit, though.
1. He blesses Barliman Butterbur's beer at "The Prancing Pony", resulting in exceedingly tasty beer for a year afterward. I know of no PF spells which duplicate this effect.
limited wish?
2. He faces down five Nazgul on Weathertop, the battle raging so violently that Aragorn and the Hobbits see the lights from miles away, and when they reach Weathertop, the area is scorched and burned from the spells cast. This implies spells at least comparable to lightning bolt, fireball, scorching ray, etc. But nothing higher than third level spells is required to duplicate this effort.
Too bad we don't get the blow-by-blow on that fight.
3. He effectively exorcises Saruman from Theoden's mind, restoring Theoden's youth and vigor. Presumably this could be represented by "Dispel Magic" or at the highest, "Remove Curse."
Maybe break enchantment.
4. He tosses a bunch of flaming pine cones at wargs and goblins, but the narrative here suggests that he was on the verge of tossing HIMSELF onto the goblins and wargs in an explosive suicidal blast. The flaming pine cones could be modeled with "magic stone" or some other low level evocation spell, but there isn't any suicidal blast spell I know of. Lucky those eagles arrived.
I figure the flaming pine cones seem most like produce flame.
5. He repels the Nazgul with a shining light from his staff to save Faramir. This could well be "Turn Undead", or "Protection from Evil" cast at a high level....
I always thought this one was a lot like searing light or sunbeam.
A low magic E6 game, I'd say. The only magic items are magic swords and a handful of homebrew items, some of which are cursed.
Edit: Magic items I can recall: the Rings, the elven cloaks, three magic swords, the Phial of Galadriel, Sam's dust of growing things, the Ent-draught, the palantír
How many magic items existed in Middle Earth depends entirely on how you define "magic items".
For example, the daggers the Hobbits received from the Barrow-Wights den were "magical" enough to be able to wound the Nazgul, which was described as something most weapons were incapable of doing. Using that as a basis it would appear that even Eowyn's sword must have been as "magical" as those daggers.
There were several palantir. The "Arkenstone of Thrain" was described as magical. Many of the fireworks that Gandalf made and the toys that the Dwarves made were described as being "magical."
Here are a few other items I can recall that were described as being magical in some small way:
1. The Lothlorian rope that untied itself.
2. The cloaks given to the Fellowship that provided near perfect camauflage.
3. The clasps that held the cloaks.
4. The boats that would not capsize in even the roughest water (and one of which survived the plunge over the Falls of Rauros).
5. The brooch that Arwen gave to Aragorn that may have held Arwen's immortal essence.
6. All of the wizard's staves.
7. The rock which made up the walls of Orthanc (and presumably Barad-Dur)
8. The gargoyle wardens that sounded the alarm when Sam stormed the Morgul keep.
9. The force field around the same keep must have been generated by something magical.
10. Legalos's bow
11. Bard the Bowman's black arrow
12. The mirror of Galadriel
That's a dozen just off the top of my head, without even going into the Silmarillion or appendices...
That's not to say that Middle Earth is a "high magic" setting, it is most definitely a "low magic" setting. But even "low magic" means "magic".
Whether they’ve made the land, or the land’s made them, it’s hard to say, if you take my meaning. It’s wonderfully quiet here. Nothing seems to be going on, nobody seems to want it to. If there’s any magic about, it’s right down deep, where I can’t lay my hands on it, in a manner of speaking.”
“You can see and feel it everywhere,” said Frodo.
“Well,” said Sam, “you can’t see nobody working it. No fireworks like poor Gandalf used to show. I wonder we don’t see nothing of the Lord and Lady in all these days. I fancy now that she could do some wonderful things, if she had a mind. I’d dearly love to see some Elf-magic, Mr. Frodo!”
“And you?’ she said, turning to Sam. “For this is what your folk would call magic, I believe; though I do not understand clearly what they mean; and they seem to use the same word of the deceits of the Enemy. But this, if you will, is the magic of Galadriel. Did you not say that you wished to see Elf-magic?”Middle Earth is a very magical setting. It's just that most of the magic things in it are magic rather than doing magic.
Indeed. In fact one of the most compelling things about the magic in Tolkein's world is the profound subtlety of it. Magic infuses the world. Lothlorien is a forest without sickness or corruption. Every tree is healthy and in bloom. The fruits are never rotten. All of this is accomplished through Galadriel's Ring of Power. But it is "hidden" as Sam says, it is not overt and glaring. This is true of most of the magic in the book, and that is one of the most enchanting things about Tolkien's world. There aren't "magical things" in the world so much as parts of the world itself are magical.
Another thing to consider about Gandalf's use of magic is that he tended to reserve his magic or big magic for magical foes and then used more mundane methods of combat for regular foes.