First, how is this a 10th level character? You have 12 HD!
Second, I guarantee you that you'll deal more damage overall without Vital Strike, because Vital Strike is awful (for non T-Rexes).
Assuming a 10th level character with ideal stats (ex. 18, 18, 18, 10, 10, 10), with 10th level starting gold, and all options available from any Paizo-published book, what is your favorite min-max damage build, and why?
Personally, my favorite build so far has been an Advanced Ogre Barbarian/Two-hand Fighter who focused on Vital Strike, and had Enlarge Person made permanent on him.
By tenth level, he had the following:
HD:12(4d8, 2d12, 6d10), Str: 45 (18 base+14 racial+6 enchantment+2 size, +3 ability increase), Con: 26 (18 base+8 racial) Dex: 18 (18 base+ 2 racial-2 size), Wis: 14(10 base, +4 racial) Int+Cha:10
AC:26 (10+7 natural+6 armor+4 dex-2 size+1 ench.)
Fort:16 (8 Con+3 Barb.+5 fight.+4 ogre) Will:4 (2 wis+1 fight.+1 ogre)Ref:6 (4 dex+1 fight.+1ogre)
Barbarian Lvls: 2
Two-Hand Fighter Levels: 6Abilities: Rage(20 rounds/day), fast movement, Rage Power:Rolling Dodge, Uncanny Dodge, Shattering Strike, Overhand Chop, and Weapon training 1 (Axes)
Feats: (6 from HD, 4 from fighter= 10 total)
Power Attack
Furious Focus
Extra Rage
Raging Vitality
Vital Strike
Devastating Strike
Furious Finish
Cleave
Great Cleave
Imp. Vital StrikeBaB: 11 (3 ogre+2 Barb.+6 fighter)
To Hit (Max): +35 (11 base+19 str.+1 weapon training+6 ench.-2 size)
Max Damage(No Crit):120 (72 vital strike+4 devastating+9 P.A.+38 str.+6 Ench.)/(crit) 336Gear:
Belt of Str. +6
+2 Furious Keen adamantine Great Axe
+1 Elven Chain
Scabbard of Vigor
Ring of Sustenance (cause, really, how else do you feed him?)
misc.The build is better 1 level higher when you get access to Raging Brutality and your P.A. goes up, but it's pretty awesome right now. It's great for fighting big things, incredibly potent when the Called Shot rule is in effect, and potentially lethal if Massive Damage applies.
Plus, there's just something about playing an Ogre that I enjoy... maybe the part where I explain his lack of function words as an accent, and not a sign of idiocy.
you dissallow psionics, but you build a character around a monstrous race with a 51 point buy worth of stats. that is more than 3 times the standard the rules are built upon, over 2 and a half times the pathfinder society norm, and over twice the highest value in the core rulebook. something far more questionable than psionics. plus, you violate the WBL rules by including multiple items worth more than half your lvl 10 wealth.
First, how is this a 10th level character? You have 12 HD!
Second, I guarantee you that you'll deal more damage overall without Vital Strike, because Vital Strike is awful (for non T-Rexes).
8 class levels +4 (CR4monster) -2 (3 class levels x2, max twice)
how does this damned super ogre even enter a building? let alone a dungeon?
how the hell does he deal with will saves. all it takes is one casting of fear, and now he can no longer fight and is completely without his beloved great axe.
and how the hell does he deal with flying foes, i see no means of flight and no means of ranged combat. and readied actions don't work when your foe never enters your reach.
he does he contribute to noncombat encounters? he doesn't have a signifficant number of skill points
how does this guy fare on a 15, 20, and 25 point buy?
how does this guy fare when you take a real race?
how does he work when you follow the proper wealth by level rules?
how does he fare when you take away his permanent spells, huge size, 4d6 base weapon damage and 15 foot reach?
how does he fare when you sunder his precious custom super axe?
how does he fare when he runs out of rage rounds?
how does he fare when he doesn't roll max damage but a more normal number?
how does this guy fare on a 15, 20, and 25 point buy? ... when you take a real race? ... when you follow the proper wealth by level rules? ... when you take away his permanent spells, huge size, 4d6 base weapon damage and 15 foot reach? ... when you sunder his precious custom super axe? ... when he runs out of rage rounds? ... when he doesn't roll max damage but a more normal number?
You're thinking in the wrong direction. The right question is "Are there any other builds that become even more awesome than this one under the OP's crazy limits?"
He's supposed to be able to put out enough damage to shame even the most broken rogueHa! Is there even such a thing? Does anyone think there's a worse class than Rogue (ok, maybe Monk, but that's about it).
or boomy wizard.
Do people actually do that other than as theorycrafts to prove blasting can be useful? Where are these goalposts, exactly? Midfield?
How can I do more damage? Let me count the ways.
The most obvious is using the exact same character and making a full attack instead of using Vital Strike. Instead of 120 damage once, you can deal 77 three times (which is 231, just for reference--nearly twice what Vital Strike did).
Edit:
And actually, since you don't just roll max every time, you're actually looking at an even bigger advantage on average damage. With a Vital Strike, you're looking at 90 average with Vital Strike and 67 average damage on your other swings, for 201 with all three. That is more than double. Vital Strike is garbage.
How can I do more damage? Let me count the ways.
The most obvious is using the exact same character and making a full attack instead of using Vital Strike. Instead of 120 damage once, you can deal 77 three times (which is 231, just for reference--nearly twice what Vital Strike did).
The second-most obvious trick is a ring of spell storing with lead blades in it.
And actually, since you don't just roll max every time, you're actually looking at an even bigger advantage on average damage. With a Vital Strike, you're looking at 90 average with Vital Strike and 67 average damage on your other swings, for 201 with all three. That is more than double. Vital Strike is garbage.
Furious finish lets him take max damage on a vital strike at the cost of dropping out of rage.
Now, it is time to build they ultimate Fey Skill Monkey
Honey Razor (50 point build, 1 point short of the ogre)
Female Nixie Bard 9
Str 13
Cha 26/28 (14+12)
int 24/26 (15+6+3)
Con 20/22 (14+6)
Dex 24/26 (14+10)
Wis 20 (14+6)
Skills (12 maxed skills at 14 ranks, 14 skills at 1 rank)
Perform (oratory) (covers diplomacy and sense motive) (11 ranks) +27 Perform (Dance) (covers acrobatics and fly) (11 ranks) +27 Perception (11 ranks, eyes of the eagle) +24 Disable Device (11 ranks, masterwork tools) +21/19 Stealth (11 ranks) +26 Escape Artist (11 ranks) +22
Perform (Act) (11 ranks) +27 Sleight of hand (11 ranks) +22 Swim (11 ranks) +23 Climb (11 ranks) +15 Linguisitics +26 use magic device (11 ranks) +27 all 10 knowledge skills (1 rank each) +16 Spellcraft (1 rank) +12 disguise (1 rank) ++13 appraise (1 rank) +12 craft (any) +12
Gear;
Circlet of persausion, headband of mental prowess (int/cha) +2, belt of physical might (dex/con) +2, eyes of the eagle, masterwork thieves tools, +2 agile dagger, +3 silken ceremonial armor, +2 ring of protection, +3 cloak of resistance, +2 amulet of natural armor
Feats, Weapon Finesse, Lingering Performance, Toughness, Dodge, pirahna strike, weapon focus (dagger)
Numbers.
HD 11 (2d6+9d8) AVG HP 97
AC, 30 FF 21 Touch 22 CMB +7 CMD 28
+4 (armor) +1 (size) +8 (Dex) +4 (natural) +2 (deflection) +1 (dodge)
Saves
Fort +12 (+6 Con +3 cloak +3 bard)
Ref +20 (+8 dex +3 nixie +6 bard +3 cloak)
Will +17 (+5 wis +3 nixie +6 bard +3 cloak)
BA +7
Melee (increase these values by 2 if using bardic performance)
Attack bonus +17/12 (+7 bab +1 size +8 dex +1 WF +2 weapon -2 pirahna strike)
Damage, 1d3+ 14(8 agile +2 weapon, +4 pirahna strike)
Versatile performance (dance, oratory)
all class features of the core bard
spells (unused slots are assumed to be open)
3rd 5/day DC 22
haste, good hope, heroism
2nd 7/day DC 21
glitterdust, inspiration (the 2nd level one), suggestion
1st 7/day DC 20
inspiritation (the 1st level one), grease, charm person
SLAs
Charm person 3/day (DC20), Water Breathing 1/day (DC22)
He's supposed to be able to put out enough damage to shame even the most broken rogueHa! Is there even such a thing? Does anyone think there's a worse class than Rogue (ok, maybe Monk, but that's about it).or boomy wizard.Do people actually do that other than as theorycrafts to prove blasting can be useful? Where are these goalposts, exactly? Midfield?
How can I do more damage? Let me count the ways.
The most obvious is using the exact same character and making a full attack instead of using Vital Strike. Instead of 120 damage once, you can deal 77 three times (which is 231, just for reference--nearly twice what Vital Strike did).
Edit:
And actually, since you don't just roll max every time, you're actually looking at an even bigger advantage on average damage. With a Vital Strike, you're looking at 90 average with Vital Strike and 67 average damage on your other swings, for 201 with all three. That is more than double. Vital Strike is garbage.Again, Furious Finish maxes my damage on a vital strike. Also, your math is off. The average damage on non-vital strike hits would be 70 (26 from dice, +28 from str. +1 weapon training+6 ench.+9 P.A) 50 damage less than Vital Strike. Yes, if I make all three of the other attacks (IF) I'll do 210 damage in one turn.
Negative? My second attack in any given turn would drop my to-hit from 35 to 27 (I don't take the P.A. penalty on my first attack thanks to Furious Focus. However, that only applies to my first attack.) and my third attack would be a 22. Meaning? If I'm fighting something with a 40 AC (it happens) my first attack has a 75% chance of success, while my second has 40% chance of success. My last attack would have a 15% chance of success... meaning? IF I hit on either of them, I might make up for not vital striking... might, with the chance of rolling low on my dice making it equally likely that even if I hit, I still do less damage.
i don't think there is a single published CR 10-15 monster with a 40 AC short of template and gear abuse. maybe late 20s early 30s at highest.
i don't think there is a single published CR 10-15 monster with a 40 AC short of template and gear abuse. maybe late 20s early 30s at highest.
Does a CR 15 Demon Lord from a 3pp count?
a serpentfolk would have been 2 levels behind a proper caster. which doesn't lose as much as losing a single level of bard. and nixies tend to be well tailored to the bard class. and bards are the best skill monkeys of pathfinder. and being a fey lost less overall skill points than being a monstrous humanoid did.
i don't think there is a single published CR 10-15 monster with a 40 AC short of template and gear abuse. maybe late 20s early 30s at highest.Does a CR 15 Demon Lord from a 3pp count?
one of a kind 3rd party monster, i guess it does.
I've played rogues that can put out over 150 damage in a turn at level 8. I've also played a zen-archer monk who could put out more. The sheer scope of damage they can do is mind-boggling, and yet people still seem to think that they're useless in combat. It's insulting, really.
Every one agrees that the zen-archer is really good. It's the monks who actually act like kung-fu guys (i.e. punch people) that they complain about.
Do you even play this game?
Not at anywhere close to the power level you do. Which probably explains why your idea of an average encounter differs from everyone else's.
Synthesist Summoner.
Ok my favorite,
The T-rex riding, Order of the Sword, Beast Rider, Cavalier.
Basically this revolves around spirited charge and doing x3 on a charge and getting a butt tonne of flat bonuses to dmg.
The total dmg bonus would be:
Cavalier has, 28 strength (18 base, 2 from levels, 6 from belt): 8
Trex has 34 strength (14 base, 8 for lvl 7, 6 from levels, 6 belt): 12
Power attack: +8Now the caviler has some nifty abilities to boost his dmg:
Challenge does an additional HD of dmg : 12
Banner with the human preferred class does: 5
Another 3 from being and order of the swordAnd lets give him a magic lance of +4
So his total mod is 52, but when multiplied with his lance, each charge attack will do between 159 and 180 damage each charge.
And you also add your t-rex's attack to that.
And also if you want to rules lawyer it, you can use mounted skirmisher to make a full attack action on the charge, thus giving you an extra two attacks to bring (assuming you hit all three times) your damage possibly from 265 to 300 a turn.
Hate to rain on your parade but;
"A beast rider cannot choose a mount that is not capable of bearing his weight, that has fewer than four legs, or that has a fly speed (although the GM may allow mounts with a swim speed in certain environments)."
It kinda takes the wind out of the beast riders sails (no mortal Chocobo combat)
Again, Furious Finish maxes my damage on a vital strike.
Oh, wow, people use that? Being Fatigued is awful for a Barbarian--not worth it.
Also, your math is off. The average damage on non-vital strike hits would be 70 (26 from dice, +28 from str. +1 weapon training+6 ench.+9 P.A) 50 damage less than Vital Strike.
I just took your calculation and pulled out the Vital strike stuff. I assumed since your max was 72 that your weapon did 4d6 (as you have Improved vital strike). If that's not true, then yeah, my math is off.
If I'm fighting something with a 40 AC (it happens)
No, it really doesn't, and certainly not at level 10.
Does a CR 15 Demon Lord from a 3pp count?
No. 3rd party stuff is hit or miss, and that's pretty ridiculous.
Second, I guarantee you that you'll deal more damage overall without Vital Strike, because Vital Strike is awful (for non T-Rexes).
Purple worm disagrees. So does nightwing. -_^
i don't think there is a single published CR 10-15 monster with a 40 AC short of template and gear abuse. maybe late 20s early 30s at highest.
The adult gold dragon (CR 15) on page 108-109 of the Beastiary will enter combat with an AC of at least 41 (+22 natural, -2 size, +4 Mage Armor, +4 Shield, +3 Shield of Faith). Can be more if some of the treasure in its hoard (58,500 gp value from chart 12-5 on page 399 of the CRB) are defensive items. Give it an Amulet of Natural Armor +2, Belt of Incredible Dexterity +2, and a Dusty Rose Prism ioun stone (total cost = 17,000, perfectly reasonable) and it's got an effective encounter AC of 45.
Encountering such a dragon isn't out of the question at level 10 if you have six or more PCs in the party (APL+1, not uncommon) with a high point buy (APL+1, also very common). Makes it an Epic encounter at APL+3.
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What? Is your GM running a game of "Wreck it Ralph" using pathfinder rules?
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I think, Geno, you're playing a totally different game then the rest of us here with house rules of yours. While I'm not criticizing how your group plays you do have to understand then when you bring up your own 'arguments' you're by yourself on this one. We don't know the rules which are permitted or not. Heck are there even limits?
The other posters are right when they say most things are only hitting an AC of around 25~30. You say 'it happens'... Sure it does but it only happens at your gaming table. The standard creatures don't. So how are we suppose to min-max when we are suppose to be min-maxing for your table and your rules?
dustries wasn't wrong when she/(he?) said a full attack was stronger then your vital strike. By NORMAL standards it would be your best options. Then you bring in your own table rules and suddenly she's wrong? The same happen to Lumiere.
You aren't really min/maxing at this point as much as you are breaking all the standard rules that everyone else follow to get a character design to fight the overpowered enemies at your table.
tl dr; Short story is that it's near impossible to min/max with you as you use utterly different rules and complete different mindset.
Also: Rogues can out-damage anything you could hope to build, and monks are the most broken class in the game for damage.
Strange, as Fighters are the Kings over in the DPR(Damage Per Round) Olympics thread...
Also: Rogues can out-damage anything you could hope to build, and monks are the most broken class in the game for damage.Strange, as Fighters are the Kings over in the DPR(Damage Per Round) Olympics thread...
The DPR Olympics have rules against playing a were-woolly-rhinoceros with a permanent enlarge person and well over WBL gear.
Also: Rogues can out-damage anything you could hope to build, and monks are the most broken class in the game for damage.Strange, as Fighters are the Kings over in the DPR(Damage Per Round) Olympics thread...
The same people that overvalue Vital Strike are the ones that overvalue Sneak Attack and blast spells. The average person looks at 10d6 and thinks, "wow, that's a lot of damage!" The statistician looks at 10d6 and thinks, "that's only about 35 damage which doesn't even multiply on a crit (and the best weapons have 18-20 crit ranges)."
It's a really common mistake. More static mods are almost always better than more dice.
The same people that overvalue Vital Strike are the ones that overvalue Sneak Attack and blast spells. The average person looks at 10d6 and thinks, "wow, that's a lot of damage!" The statistician looks at 10d6 and thinks, "that's only about 35 damage which doesn't even multiply on a crit (and the best weapons have 18-20 crit ranges)."
It's a really common mistake. More static mods are almost always better than more dice.
I would beg to disagree. Do not underestimate sneak attack. I can create a Pathfinder Society Legal character (Tengu Ninja) that by 10th level does:
(40d6 + 80) sneak attack damage (requires sap adept and sap master feats) + (4d6 + 4) corrosive +1 AoMF + 4d3 (3 claw attacks + 1 bite attack) + 28 (strength damage from 24 strength achievable by 10th level).
This equals 272 points of average damage using a 20 point build. The ninja picks up the vanishing trick and invisible blade ninja tricks along the way to 10th level that gives greater invisibility enabling sneak attacks. The tengu uses its natural attacks which count as bludgeoning weapons.
All of these posts are the reasons we cant have nice things.
I understand doing things to help a high level fighter stand toe to toe with casters, but seeing this kind of thing makes me realize why our gm never wants us to get past level 9.
@c873788 that's a really sweet build. If I read that right you're going bite claw/claw/ ki point attack? Since all of those natural attacks do bludgeoning damage with bludgeoner, sap adept/master you take no penalties get massive SA bonuses, and with invisible blade you''ve got sneak attack against everything without see invisible. That seems really good, but couldn't you get more damage with an agile amulet of mighty fists?
Exactly, bite/claw/claw/ki point attack.
I've never considered the agile AoMF before but not for any good reason. You might be right about it squeezing out more damage. I will have to look into this.
Pacifist Witch
Create opportunities for ALL the damage!