Is the Paladin's "Holy Champion" completely lame?

[DreamGoddessLindsey]

As the topic title says. Holy Champion, to me, seems to weaken the Paladin's most potent ability. By tacking on a required Banishment (which will almost certainly fail every time) that ends the Smite immediately, Smite Evil goes from being potent to being completely lame.

The rest of Holy Champion is decent, but that bit really bothers me. It's like the rules intentionally nerf the Paladin at Level 20. Why is that?

Shouldn't there be a choice to just not use the Banishment at all and keep the Smite going? I can't think of any circumstance whatsoever when I'd want to use that Banishment ability. I just can't believe this issue has been seemingly ignored for so long, as I couldn't find any other topic on this. I would think Paladin players would want this changed ASAP.

Do most people just house rule the Banishment out?

[proftobe]

Most people never see 20th level. A lot of people never get to double digits.

[Bertious]

Considering its level 20 and a starting cha of 15 on the paladin you'd probably have +5 from books and a +6 item making your charisma 26 so the save dc would be 10 +6 (i'd assume you treat it as a cleric spell) +13 cha +4 weapon and holy symbol so a dc 33 will save and your caster level is considered 22.

A CR 20 Balor has a SR of 31 so you beat it on an 8+ without any feats or other boosts sadly it also saves on an 8+ with it's +25 will save but hopefully your other party members can do something to reduce that.

A CR 20 Pit Fiend also has a 31 SR so you need an 8 to beat it but its will save is only +18 so it fails on a 14 or less.

I do agree however that it ending the smite even if the creature resists sucks alot.

[Serisan]

Other important baddies to keep in mind:

Nalfeshnee: SR 25, Will +21
Marilith: SR 28, Will +13
Glabrezu: SR 24, Will +11
Ice Devil: SR 24, Will +12
Horned Devil: SR 27, Will +13
Astradaemon: SR 27, Will +14
Shemhazian: SR 27, Will +18
Vrolikai: SR 30, Will +17
Belier Devil: SR 28, Will +20
Handmaiden Devil: SR 25, Will +10
Immolation Devil: SR 30, Will +14
Shaggy Demodand: SR 29, Will +18
Slimy Demodand: SR 27, Will +14
Tarry Demodand: SR 24, Will +12
Akvan Div: Will +21
Sepid Div: SR 25, Will +15

Remember: CR 20 encounters come in many shapes and sizes, frequently in large numbers.

[Mikaze]

Searching the previous threads on this topic turned up no official answers, though one FAQ-requested thread got a "no response needed" tag.

I think the general consensus is that the banishment effect should be a matter of choice. Otherwise this does make the paladin weaker and that can't be the intention.

I can think of some situations where I'd want to attempt a banishment, but there are also plenty where I wouldn't.

[Prawn]

Also at that level, you have more than one smite, so if the banishment doesn't work, rinse and repeat.

[Jadeite]

Bertious wrote:

Considering its level 20 and a starting cha of 15 on the paladin you'd probably have +5 from books and a +6 item making your charisma 26 so the save dc would be 10 +6 (i'd assume you treat it as a cleric spell) +13 cha +4 weapon and holy symbol so a dc 33 will save and your caster level is considered 22.

A CR 20 Balor has a SR of 31 so you beat it on an 8+ without any feats or other boosts sadly it also saves on an 8+ with it's +25 will save but hopefully your other party members can do something to reduce that.

A CR 20 Pit Fiend also has a 31 SR so you need an 8 to beat it but its will save is only +18 so it fails on a 14 or less.

I do agree however that it ending the smite even if the creature resists sucks alot.

With a Charisma of 26, your bonus would only be +8, making it much easier to resist.

[DreamGoddessLindsey]

I guess I'll just Rule 0 it out then. It's a weakening of Smite Evil, and that shouldn't be what happens at Level 20. Banishment should be a choice, not a requirement.

[Coriat]

Mikaze wrote:

Searching the previous threads on this topic turned up no official answers, though one FAQ-requested thread got a "no response needed" tag.

Link

[Haladir]

At my table, I'd rule that the banishment ends the smite only if it was successful. If it was unsuccessful, the smite stays in effect.

[Kargoth Kargoron]

Haladir wrote:

At my table, I'd rule that the banishment ends the smite only if it was successful. If it was unsuccessful, the smite stays in effect.

The problem is losing your smite really hurts on a failed banishment. However, if the banishment only ends on a successful banishment, then the paladin basically gets to banish the creature as often as he successfully hits until he banishes the creature. Banishment being an instant kill effect, that is really powerful.