The most bought item for a character is the backpack (and its cousin the Handy Haversack). You have all this stuff that you never know when it comes in handy from alchemist fire to fishhook and string. My issue is that for many of my characters I can not picture them with this big backpack on their shoulders, specially my wizards and monks. This also applies to the more sophisticated characters that might have some sort of noble-like or plain pompous background (yes social rogues/bards I am looking at you!). Although I can picture them having it when traveling but not at all when it comes to fighting or city exploring (you leave your backpack in your room! Its half the point of getting a room!)
SO my questions to people are if anyone else has this problem or am I just crazy? And what suggestions do you have to fix it?
Refluff it as a satchel? Buy some other means of carrying stuff (Bag of Holding, Pathfinder pouch, versatile vest, etc)?
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I usually just explain it to myself as less "a big backpack full of stuff" and more "A backpack with some larger stuff in it/tied on it like lamps, rope, and bedrolls" and then "a whole buncha pouches (under the robes for Monks) with little stuff in them".
I'm also the guy who buys Bandoliers and stuff too, so whatev. Gotta have SOMEHWERE to keep all my whiskey and grenades.
Did not know about the Pathfinder pouch (and I like it). My issue with the bag of holding is the restriction on "more then a backpack" becomes a full round action. I have re-fluffed the Haversack as a satchel before which is better but doesn't quite make me happy (yes I am being hard to please here).
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The very first time I played a role-playing game--this would have been around 1981, lasses and lads--it was with a bunch of older kids who decided to let me tag along invading the steading of a certain hill giant chief.
I was Tybalt the Pious, a 1st level cleric of Thor. I had a footman's mace. (I was eleven.)
They were multitude, each playing more than one character, all of whom who had "rolled for" psionics when this was something like a two percent possibility, and all of whom were detailed in a house-styled shorthand on oversized index cards the DM kept between sessions.
We went into the hill fort, a door opened, and many, many giant baddies spilled out. To a man (for of course, they were all men--this was 1981, and they were all early teen boys with dim understanding of their own gender and certainly lacking in the imagination or generosity required to play outside it) they, I don't know, psionically plane shifted or something.
There stood Tybalt the Pious, with his footman's mace. If briefly.
For the rest of the afternoon, I attempted to "learn the game" (they were playing with hardback books! I had a cardboard box for my rules!) by watching, listening, and reading those oversized index cards.
On one of them, I oh-so-distinctly remember, a wizard had listed all the equipment he kept in his Bag of Holding. One of the items he had to hand was a green dragon.
On that day, though I didn't know it at the time, I became a stickler for encumbrance, among other things.
All of which is to say, by all means, leave the backpack in your room. But don't expect to enjoy the benefit of any of the stuff that you have (improbably, no doubt) crammed into it.
And why yes, that explorer's outfit DOES count against what you can carry, Mr. Gnome Sorcerer with a strength of 5. Hope you didn't want to haul around a dagger as well!
It's always kind of bugged me for the martial characters. Rogues flipping around with acrobatics, fighters trading blows and such, all with a fairly cumbersome backpack on? It does seem odd.
I suppose that's the point of encumbrance though. If it's not too heavy of a backpack, theoretically they're fine.
As for a suggestion, I have considered that if you're carrying a lot of stupid stuff in a backpack, you could assume you drop it when combat breaks out so you're more mobile. Keep the important stuff, like alchemist's fire in a satchel on your belt or whatever instead. EDIT: Ha, maybe that's why you're flat-footed before your turn comes :P
But that's not how RAW works, so... YMMV on that one.
You could refluff the handy haversack as hammerspace for all it matters.
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It's always kind of bugged me for the martial characters. Rogues flipping around with acrobatics, fighters trading blows and such, all with a fairly cumbersome backpack on? It does seem odd.
I suppose that's the point of encumbrance though. If it's not too heavy of a backpack, theoretically they're fine.
As for a suggestion, I have considered that if you're carrying a lot of stupid stuff in a backpack, you could assume you drop it when combat breaks out so you're more mobile. Keep the important stuff, like alchemist's fire in a satchel on your belt or whatever instead. EDIT: Ha, maybe that's why you're flat-footed before your turn comes :P
But that's not how RAW works, so... YMMV on that one.
That's how I always saw it. I mean, honestly, you ever seen anyone in the military camp? (Or bivouac or whatever stupid thing you were supposed to call it) When you stop, you drop the packs. I see no reason combat would be any different.
...When you stop, you drop the packs. I see no reason combat would be any different.
Sure. And "drop an item" is specifically listed as a free action at p. 188 of The Core Rulebook..
That's when it becomes important that characters have kept track of where they've stored which items, particularly things like backup weapons, scrolls, and potions.
Using this notion, players would also need to keep track of their different rates of movement at the tactical scale for combat and at the overland scale for travel.
And GMs would have to keep in mind that certain scavenging enemies (like goblins, for instance) might be more interested in making off with the dropped backpacks than they would be in engaging in combat.
You are able to describe your gear anyway you wish as long as it is reasonable.
Though that might just be my imagination.
Your flanking buddy rolled a 1 and sliced through your handy haversack...ouch
Or even worse your party's rogue just threw the Bag Of Holding from the treasure pile into your party's Portable Hole and now you are all trapped in the Astral Plane.
Yes, This really happened. we no longer just toss the treasure into the Portable Hole Willy-Nilly. Though can a Handy Haversack be put into a Portable Hole? What about a Handy Haversack containing a Bag Of Holding?
You could always not carry a bunch of things, then you don't have to carry a backpack. Which, as you know, is fine for an overnight adventure.
When I go camping though, I have more than I can carry.
Your flanking buddy rolled a 1 and sliced through your handy haversack...ouchOr even worse your party's rogue just threw the Bag Of Holding from the treasure pile into your party's Portable Hole and now you are all trapped in the Astral Plane.
Yes, This really happened. we no longer just toss the treasure into the Portable Hole Willy-Nilly. Though can a Handy Haversack be put into a Portable Hole? What about a Handy Haversack containing a Bag Of Holding?
A Handy Haversack can contain a Bag of Holding I believe.
A Handy Haversack can contain a Bag of Holding I believe.Your flanking buddy rolled a 1 and sliced through your handy haversack...ouchOr even worse your party's rogue just threw the Bag Of Holding from the treasure pile into your party's Portable Hole and now you are all trapped in the Astral Plane.
Yes, This really happened. we no longer just toss the treasure into the Portable Hole Willy-Nilly. Though can a Handy Haversack be put into a Portable Hole? What about a Handy Haversack containing a Bag Of Holding?
It is one of those things that sparks my ADD/ADHD.
Some of this exciting stuff is detailed in older editions, some not. I say that if the party wants to tempt fate, then they obviously want the consequences!
If only I had a good way to draw digitally...
(I suck at drawing on paper but not when using a Digital Pen & Tablet)
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buy a donkey, put all your crap in saddle bags. problem solved.
if it's any consolation, US Army Rangers and Special Forces fall in a category called "light infantry" and do ALOT of fighting, running, jumping and 'exploring' toting HUGE backpacks around bigger than what most adventurers would dream of. Might google some military picks to just get a mental idea of what a rucksack might look like full o crap.
There are quick detach straps on these to drop them in an area when combat occurs (commonly called a 'cache') so you don't have to go all jackie chan on the bad guys with your pack on your back.
Better watch out for my wu tang style haj!
if it's any consolation, US Army Rangers and Special Forces fall in a category called "light infantry" and do ALOT of fighting, running, jumping and 'exploring' toting HUGE backpacks around bigger than what most adventurers would dream of. Might google some military picks to just get a mental idea of what a rucksack might look like full o crap.
There are quick detach straps on these to drop them in an area when combat occurs (commonly called a 'cache') so you don't have to go all jackie chan on the bad guys with your pack on your back.
Better watch out for my wu tang style haj!
That's actually all infantry (and honestly most anyone on patrol infantry or not). Typically the pack gets shed immediately for action and then picked back up after the excitement.
ALL infantry? How so? Big Red One? ACR? 11M? They are mechanized infantry, they keep their gear in the rig, like sane people.
Personally, We didn't shed our pack that quickly. Usually, if we were planning an assault or a raid, we dropped it. IF stuff just went down....didn't bother as we were constantly moving and din't know when or IF we;d be back to where we were at ATM.
I've had a pack soak up more than a few rounds meant for me before.
In Fact I owe my life to a Radio/lithium Ion battery pack.
All right Pend, most infantry are willing to drop pack for engagement. It's not always an option of course for a variety of reasons.
Congrats on the saves by the way, lithium cells are nice that way, glad they saved you.
All right Pend, most infantry are willing to drop pack for engagement. It's not always an option of course for a variety of reasons.
Congrats on the saves by the way, lithium cells are nice that way, glad they saved you.
Well "willing" and "able" are two different things. I'm always willing to drop the dang thing, and more than happy to let a vehicle carry the thing. which is why I suggested "buy a donkey" above.
(plus as a DM I love to see people's stuff fly away when the donkey is grabbed by a giant eagle or a young dragon, or something interesting....mwahaha)
And GMs would have to keep in mind that certain scavenging enemies (like goblins, for instance) might be more interested in making off with the dropped backpacks than they would be in engaging in combat.
One of my players who plays an archery switch-hitter learned this to their dismay...
Here are my alternate encumbrance rules:
A character wearing armor has an encumbrance level set by the armor type. This is equal to the armor check penalty of the armor.
A character can carry five "hands" worth of weapons and equipment; they may normally only use one shield and a single one-handed weapon, one two-handed weapon, or a pair of one-handed weapons at any given time. A one handed weapon, shortbow, pistol, or light or standard shield is one "hand" worth of equipment. A two-handed weapon, longbow, rifle, crossbow, or heavy shield is two "hands" worth of equipment. Any weapon with the "reach" property counts as one hand more than its normal rating. A quiver of up to twenty arrows or crossbow bolts counts as one "hand" of equipment.
A character can comfortably carry 15 lbs of items per four points of STR they have in a sack, backpack or similar item and count it as one "hand" of equipment. Pistols, knives, ammunition clips, and other items of similar size carried in holsters count as "items in a backpack" for encumbrance purposes.
A character carrying four or more "hands" worth of equipment or more adds one to their armor check penalty level, and subtracts two squares from their Move score.
At the end of every third round of combat, each character rolls a Fort save DC 15, subtracting their armor check penalty. Failing this gives them the fatigued condition. Failing a second save gives them the exhausted condition, as will failing this save if they are fatigued by some other mechanism. The Endurance feat adds to this Fort save.
Barbarians using their rage ability do not have to make this check for as long as they are raging.
All right Pend, most infantry are willing to drop pack for engagement. It's not always an option of course for a variety of reasons.
Congrats on the saves by the way, lithium cells are nice that way, glad they saved you.
Well "willing" and "able" are two different things. I'm always willing to drop the dang thing, and more than happy to let a vehicle carry the thing. which is why I suggested "buy a donkey" above.
(plus as a DM I love to see people's stuff fly away when the donkey is grabbed by a giant eagle or a young dragon, or something interesting....mwahaha)
Two examples for the pack animal thing. First, my first PFS character is a wizard named Rashepses. He has a donkey named Yubastird (say it out loud) that carries all of his things. Yubastird also works as good cover for my cowardly wizard. 15GP for a pack animal to carry all of your things is well worth the price. If you are small, it also works as a mount.
Second, in our Kingmaker campaign, a few of the party members pooled our money at first level to buy a cart and horse. We traveled all over the Stolen Lands in this thing. It helped us carry some 1200lbs of Tuskgutter back to Oleg's trading post for one hell of a party. Plus we had bacon! So instead of living out of our packs, we enjoyed the comfort of hot meals every night. It took twice as long to explore but was well worth it I think.
All right Pend, most infantry are willing to drop pack for engagement. It's not always an option of course for a variety of reasons.
Congrats on the saves by the way, lithium cells are nice that way, glad they saved you.
Well "willing" and "able" are two different things. I'm always willing to drop the dang thing, and more than happy to let a vehicle carry the thing. which is why I suggested "buy a donkey" above.
(plus as a DM I love to see people's stuff fly away when the donkey is grabbed by a giant eagle or a young dragon, or something interesting....mwahaha)
Two examples for the pack animal thing. First, my first PFS character is a wizard named Rashepses. He has a donkey named Yubastird (say it out loud) that carries all of his things. Yubastird also works as good cover for my cowardly wizard. 15GP for a pack animal to carry all of your things is well worth the price. If you are small, it also works as a mount.
Second, in our Kingmaker campaign, a few of the party members pooled our money at first level to buy a cart and horse. We traveled all over the Stolen Lands in this thing. It helped us carry some 1200lbs of Tuskgutter back to Oleg's trading post for one hell of a party. Plus we had bacon! So instead of living out of our packs, we enjoyed the comfort of hot meals every night. It took twice as long to explore but was well worth it I think.
We pooled our money while playing dark sun once. I cant recall why, and we had a carriage too. I had a lazy thief that hid in it all the time, if the party wanted something opened, like a chest I told them to bring it to me in the cart, where "all my tools were" and I had little slots in the carriage so I could peer out, shoot my bow or stick my spear out of it occasionally.
I think I played it like this because it had a really low con (like an 8 or something) so I decided he was lazy. that party pulled me around every where, I NEVER walked!
There are a LOT of old school, 1ed answers to this one.
Pack animals, hirelings to carry gear, and backpacks are all possibilities. And don't forget my favorite, the humble sack. Fill with things you could I've without or replace, like food, rope, torches, etc, and carry it over a shoulder. Drop as a free action, and then fight or run, as needed.
My issue with dropping my bag is that I need the stuff in that bag. I am definitely the type of player that likes to have a tool for any job. Since I usually play martial characters I need those tools even more in order to be more versatile and take care of problems that can not be handled with a full round attack. But I hate the picture of my monk spring boarding off the wall with a backpack on! I know I want my cake and eat too...
BUT I love the different opinions everyone has generated. I honestly didn't think this thread would get much attention at all.
It's always kind of bugged me for the martial characters. Rogues flipping around with acrobatics, fighters trading blows and such, all with a fairly cumbersome backpack on? It does seem odd.
I suppose that's the point of encumbrance though. If it's not too heavy of a backpack, theoretically they're fine.
As for a suggestion, I have considered that if you're carrying a lot of stupid stuff in a backpack, you could assume you drop it when combat breaks out so you're more mobile. Keep the important stuff, like alchemist's fire in a satchel on your belt or whatever instead. EDIT: Ha, maybe that's why you're flat-footed before your turn comes :P
But that's not how RAW works, so... YMMV on that one.
This makes some sense to me, but it always gets glossed over.
I mean, adventurers in film are rarely shown wearing a pack; many character drawings don't include backpacks; few characters in literature get described as carrying around a big pack.
Then there is the issue of performing all sorts of actions that seem like they'd be hampered by wearing a backpack, even a mostly empty one--tumbling (both on the ground and through the air), grappling, wearing a quiver, jumping, running, falling down... The list goes on and on. I've done quite a lot of running with both a full backpack and a fairly empty one, dodging through the crowds in the financial district of NYC while running after my bus after school, and I have to say that unless I was gripping the shoulder straps, the pack <i>definitely</i> interfered with my movement considerably as its weight shifted and lagged behind my movements.
Having a few items on your belt, or in pockets, or something similar makes some sense, but even then, how are you keeping all of your glass potion vials from shattering when you fall, roll or get hit?
I've always been okay picturing, say, my rangers wearing a pack, but when do you ever see a knight in full armor and regalia with one on?
My issue with dropping my bag is that I need the stuff in that bag. I am definitely the type of player that likes to have a tool for any job. Since I usually play martial characters I need those tools even more in order to be more versatile and take care of problems that can not be handled with a full round attack. But I hate the picture of my monk spring boarding off the wall with a backpack on! I know I want my cake and eat too...
BUT I love the different opinions everyone has generated. I honestly didn't think this thread would get much attention at all.
so during combat you are planning to fumble through your pack to get stuff out? have you REAd the rules for that conundrum?
Well by the time I can afford all the tools I like I can also get my Handy Haversack. So that is not an issue.
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Invisible handy haversack?
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Invisible handy haversack?
Invisible, weightless, flat, firmly attached, gravity independent handy haversack?
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Handy Haversack Animated Object that has Overland Flight permanently on it?
I heart the last three posts.
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I heart the last three posts.
I know right!
Oh wait was I one of the ones you are talking about?
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... a wizard had listed all the equipment he kept in his Bag of Holding. One of the items he had to hand was a green dragon...
That reminds me of my very first Red Box D&D character. The guys teaching me the game gave me a sheet for some warrior-type guy named Deathdude or something like that who had a bag of holding. In addition to about several thousand pounds of coins, gems, gear and ale, his bag contained a small keep, 255 elves in full kits and two hell hounds.
I had the ask the DM if I was correctly reading the sheet. Our conversation went something like...
DM- Yeah, those are all in his bag.
VZ- How?
DM- It's magic.
VZ- Okay. How do the elves and hell hounds eat and breathe?
DM- There's air in the bag and food in the keep.
VZ- Do I need to keep track of the food?
DM- Not really.
VZ- Will the hell hounds eat my elves if they run out of food?
DM- No.
VZ- And I can just pull these things out whenever I want and make them kill stuff for me?
DM- Yeah.
VZ- Okay.
I never once actually pulled my keep, army of elves or hell hounds out of the bag, but I would occasionally spill beer and leftovers into it to restock the larders.
Not weightless, but not heavy and with weight and inertia independent of their contents. That's the whole point of extradimensional spaces after all.Invisible handy haversack?Invisible, weightless, flat, firmly attached, gravity independent handy haversack?
Well, even a fairly light, empty bag on your back can cause problems and be annoying. It moves around independently of you a little bit, and can make more noise, can get caught on things, or be an easy handle for someone trying to grab you. If you're underwater it can get water-logged and get heavier, it can snag your weapons or arrows, and can even get flipped over your head, effectively blinding you, in some situations.
It's the 'visual' thats bugging the OP.
so invisible would suffice.
Hmm, what would you price a Handy Haversack that appears as a Orb and hovers right behind your back at? You can just reach in and grab any item as a Handy Haversack. Would you even change the pricing. Would you make it weightless?
tensers floating disk?
how about an illusion that makes the worn haversack appear as a floating blue orb?