I'm not sure what you mean by thatMy real concern with PvP is how do you combat the circumvention of the downside of being evil.
For every method of hurting evil characters they come up with, players will probably find 2 or 3 ways around it. Worst of all, the best and most effective way o get around a lot of them (not being welcome in towns, etc) is beneficial for the company - which is buying and maintaining a second account.
Goblin Squad Member
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For every method of hurting evil characters they come up with, players will probably find 2 or 3 ways around it. Worst of all, the best and most effective way o get around a lot of them (not being welcome in towns, etc) is beneficial for the company - which is buying and maintaining a second account.
This is true of any game. If they can't kill you directly, they'll teleport you to osmewhere where you'll die, or kill the mobs you're trying to kill, or steal the resources you're trying to get to, or just generally cause you trouble in any way they can.
This way at least, doing things like that makes the game mroe inconvenient for THEM too. It's not the perfect solution. Honestly if they did eliminate nonconsensual pvp I wouldn't complain at all, but I think as it stands, without trying it, it seems to be a good system
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Robb pretty much sums it up nicely. Back on EQ I had a level 22 Darkie who used to roll around twinkled out pking anyone who came through crudhbone. This happened a couple hours a day. Also knowing your hunting ground is an insanely good perk. Really had no intention of advancing my character beyond looting enough coin to pay for potions. Ah the good ol days :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Robb pretty much sums it up nicely. Back on EQ I had a level 22 Darkie who used to roll around twinkled out pking anyone who came through crudhbone. This happened a couple hours a day. Also knowing your hunting ground is an insanely good perk. Really had no intention of advancing my character beyond looting enough coin to pay for potions. Ah the good ol days :)
Presumably the people passing through that area were of a level that you COULD defeat at 22, or it wouldn't have worked.
How would you work that in a system where there are no level based regions and the spawns are dynamic and the rare spawns in random locations?
Sure, you might fight someone weaker or equal skilled, or you might come across a group of three at about your level, or one or two way over it. They have as much reason to be wandering that region as the lower skilled characters.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If a town is a known training center for bandits and griefers, I can't see it being allowed to stand for long. And advanced leveling will require structures not found in NPC towns. Thus, rather quickly, bandits will run into problems being able to keep up with the more community oriented players.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well I'm interested to see how the grand experiment turns out personally. I love killing me some lowbies when I get bored. Didn't they already announce there will be corpse runs too?
I don't know, I hope so, it makes you think about death more than just a respawn. But remember they'll come back fully armed and armored still :P
It's all the other stuff they'll be wanting to get back!|
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Yeah eh my interest is piqued. On EQ. We had an honor system most people followed, get killed in a zone the loser had to leave it for an hour. I thought that was a nice idea. The pkers weren't considered griefers in that regard those tho ignored the honor rules. High end Pvp was about zone (and thus resource) control, often in a guild vs guild manner
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Goblin Squad Member
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For every method of hurting evil characters they come up with, players will probably find 2 or 3 ways around it...
Sorry, Robb, you contrary for the sake of contrariness.
PvP is a key feature of this game.
Looting raw materials at least from dead PCs is a key feature too.
Both will be there to create meaningful interaction and the need to group and the need for more PC roles than tank, healer, dps.
This is turn will create a great community.
This in turn will create a game that is interesting and engageging for years and years.
A few persons will try and exploit said key features despite the fact that the community and various game systems will punish them for it, so what?
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Goblin Squad Member
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One thing I think hasn't been mentioned much in this thread is the combat style of PFO. One of the reasons people don't like PvP is because they lose at it too much and in most video games you are losing because you never developed quick twitch gamer fingers or you are a "clicker" who doesn't have the ability to hit 20 keys with out looking, or you are not a grinder for the equipment.
But consider this.
The top gear will be made by the crafters. Advantage peaceful nerds over kiddies. (as stated in blogs)
The combat will be somewhat slower with decisions being grouped into 6 second intervals. Levels the playing field for peaceful nerds against the kiddies. (as stated in blogs)
Combat will be knowledge/strategy based as much as quick trigger. Another equalizer for the vet RPG'er against the vet MMO'er. (assuming it's EVE like).
Level differences will by and large not grant one shot kills. Detriment for the kiddies. (as stated in the blogs)
Criminal system. They had one in AoC, they work pretty well. detriment for the kiddies. (as stated in threads)
A spreadsheet player who has the coin through crafting/trading has the ability to grief through assassination contracts more than the PvP'er! Advantage nerd.
Hey I used to get hammered badly in AoC because I was a clicker who hated raiding. In GW2 I'm actually pretty decent because they level the field in PvP and there isn't as much button smashing, it's more build oriented which is intelligence based not dexterity.
Moral of the story if post is too long. Some of these people saying they hate PvP could very well end up being the most viscous player killers in the game!
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Goblin Squad Member
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One thing I think hasn't been mentioned much in this thread is the combat style of PFO. One of the reasons people don't like PvP is because they lose at it too much and in most video games you are losing because you never developed quick twitch gamer fingers or you are a "clicker" who doesn't have the ability to hit 20 keys with out looking, or you are not a grinder for the equipment.
But consider this.
The top gear will be made by the crafters. Advantage peaceful nerds over kiddies. (as stated in blogs)
The combat will be somewhat slower with decisions being grouped into 6 second intervals. Levels the playing field for peaceful nerds against the kiddies. (as stated in blogs)
Combat will be knowledge/strategy based as much as quick trigger. Another equalizer for the vet RPG'er against the vet MMO'er. (assuming it's EVE like).
Level differences will by and large not grant one shot kills. Detriment for the kiddies. (as stated in the blogs)
Criminal system. They had one in AoC, they work pretty well. detriment for the kiddies. (as stated in threads)
A spreadsheet player who has the coin through crafting/trading has the ability to grief through assassination contracts more than the PvP'er! Advantage nerd.
Hey I used to get hammered badly in AoC because I was a clicker who hated raiding. In GW2 I'm actually pretty decent because they level the field in PvP and there isn't as much button smashing, it's more build oriented which is intelligence based not dexterity.
Moral of the story if post is too long. Some of these people saying they hate PvP could very well end up being the most viscous player killers in the game!
That's why I started the combat thread, to try and get more clarification on how it's going to work. But this IS reassuring, I like strategy xD
I suppose it also allows for the development of combat forms given the points per six seconds combat style!
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Goblin Squad Member
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There's a difference between getting a group together to go exploring and having to mount an army expedition to go exploring. We all obviously don't all agree about certain aspects of the game, and discussing them is how we reach compromise. If you want just the opinions you agree with, then the discussion will be sterile. If it turns out that the community isn't interested in differing opinions, then that is fine as well. I can go busy myself elsewhere, I just thought another viewpoint would be helpful.- re grouping. I totally get what you are saying there.
- re agreement. I certainly do not want an echo chamber, but that is very different then agreeing about the basic assumptions. I sincerely hope you stick around.
*sigh*
I apologize if I started sounding pissy, but it was late, and when trying to discuss my concerns and I'm met with the same arguments it gets to me
I have already signed up for the beta. Barring a big change of heart I will likely let at least that $100 stand until Jan 15. I will not stop championing systems to make PvP less frustrating. I understand the devs are trying their best to cover these bases. I think the most important thing is that they have pledged to keep a dynamic presence in the game. Most of the worst excesses are caused by absent mods. When your complains in game are ignored then you soon bail.
I am actually excited about the beta being a large buy in. I hope that a slow start where the worst of the moms-basement-dwelling beardos who spend all day honing their PvP skills on their toon 'Urmomz Aslllut' will be put off by the price tag
Like Rob said above, I have no issue with 80% of the PvP community. If I had more issues I wouldn't be putting my hard-earned cash into the kitty. I am merely trying to find ways to make the game less frustrating for the casual gamer, which is the part of the community 'I' belong to. I have a job, a family, and commitments that don't allow me to game more than 3-5 hours a week (with the occasional holiday grind). I have a nine-year-old toon on EQ1 who is still level 85 (out of a possible 100 with the recent expansion )
If we as a community can discuss our issues (and saying 'PvP our way will make a great community' isn't discussion) then maybe, just maybe, we can think of a few other ways to get the herd of bored beardos to seek other pastures.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I wonder if this whole thing is going to go like other MMO's where the only people you can actually trust are the evil ones because you actually know what they'll do rather then the good types who are completely unproven.
Kind of like how the safest space in EVE is the space that's supposed to be the most dangerous.
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For every method of hurting evil characters they come up with, players will probably find 2 or 3 ways around it...Sorry, Robb, you contrary for the sake of contrariness.
No, I've just been to the rodeo more than once. You're completely naive if you think that players aren't going to easily find ways around the detriments for being evil. Some of them are detectable and fixable. Many are damn near undetectable.
I am not really that opposed to PVP being in the game. I have expressed my concern as I personally feel that it does not enhance the game, but rather detracts from it, but that is neither here nor there.
Where I draw my line in the sand on this subject, however, is PVP looting. PVP looting except as a punishment for the worst of the worst criminals will, simply put, not be a part of any game I play. There will be no conversation about it, there will be no negotiation about it, and there will be no concession on it. Trying to convince me that I'm wrong and you're right is a complete waste of your breath. Trying to expound the value of how "players being monsters with random drops enhances meaningful interaction" will fall on deaf ears. Trying to detail an elaborate system of "oh, but if you're good, you only have a small chance of losing certain slots..." will be said to my back as I walk away from the table. Nothing about how this game plays, operates, or is different than "theme park" MMOs can possibly justify the frustration of losing your hard earned items to a ganker. Period.
If PVP looting is in, I am out. And I don't claim to speak for the all the PvE players of the world, but on this subject, I feel pretty comfortable speaking for at least half, if not more, who are coming with me. Even my most diehard PVP loving friend, the one who always wants to play on PVP servers, always wants to run battlegrounds, and you couldn't hold back from attacking an opposing faction player with a +5 Adamantine Chain gave me the response of "ewww." when I told him about PVP loot.
Ryan talks about the "scars of UO". Well, to that I say "Some scars never fade." This is one of them. I've played a lot of MMO's in my day, and I never thought a company would be .... well, I won't say it, cause I have nothing nice to say.
As one poster so eloquently put, "I am not paying to be someone elses content". I don't think that's a fair statement, because really in an MMO, that is what we're paying for. However:
I am not paying to be someone else's farming mule,
I am not paying to be someone else's gatherer,
and I am not paying to be someone's elite mob that might drop a rare item that I happened to be holding to MY detriment.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Robb
Unfortunately for you, then, it seems PFO is not the game you hope it to be. Ryan has confirmed more than once that player looting from PvP is in. I hope you find the game you do want, and I'm saddened that PFO appears to be a game that goes against your personal hopes and dreams for it.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Robb: you're beating a dead horse here. I'm not sure if you're trying to influence decisions that have already been made and cannot be changed, or just learn what those decisions are.
The 'players are content' decision is immutable. The general concept of open world PvP is already made; details are still mutable. I don't think that those decisions have the consequences that you see. Most of the dissent here is on that logical step between the existence of open PvP with consequences and the level of griefing that is unavoidable.
If nothing else, the radius and response speed of the marshals can be adjusted, and the cost, existence, and range of player settlement guards modified to allow for safe-enough areas if they are needed.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Robb
Unfortunately for you, then, it seems PFO is not the game you hope it to be. Ryan has confirmed more than once that player looting from PvP is in. I hope you find the game you do want, and I'm saddened that PFO appears to be a game that goes against your personal hopes and dreams for it.
That said,
As one poster so eloquently put, "I am not paying to be someone elses content". I don't think that's a fair statement, because really in an MMO, that is what we're paying for. However:
I am not paying to be someone else's farming mule,
I am not paying to be someone else's gatherer,
and I am not paying to be someone's elite mob that might drop a rare item that I happened to be holding to MY detriment.
1 - good point on mmorpgs being each other's content eg to talk to etc.
2 - If you are slain in combat, all your items not "held" are lost. Your "held" items you retain.3- Except x1 random item in your inventory (which likely is not of value and hence not an economic motivation) that the victor (whoever they may be) of combat receives. I think in this case that does emulate receiving something from a mob, but if you are careful in your equip choice, then I think most times out of ten, unless you deck yourself head to foot in your best bling, it's going to be no inordinate loss. I think the exception is to intensify risk for those transporting goods around the place? I have not thought too deeply about it.
Anyway, the point being there's loot and there's loot. I personally am not too keen on tab-target hotbar combat, but I'm willing to see if the variation in PfO can be interesting and I take it on the chin that as a sandbox a broad set of wide and deep features compensates some areas that I am less keen on: Ideally lots of areas compensate!
Alexander:
@All - what is lootable and how that system will work is very much on the drawing board. In fact, based on a diagram I saw in a conference room today, I think literally. :)
If "how the system will work" is "on the drawing board", then the time for those of my opinion to express our extreme distaste, to the point of it being the end of consideration of this game, is right now.
If "what is lootable" is on the drawing board, then "nothing is lootable" still exists well within the scope of possible outcomes.
So basically, I guess where I'm at for right now is I'm going to give someone who speaks for the company and isn't just quoting blog posts like gospel a day or so to have a chance to respond. I know these sort of things take a certain amount of "PR Spin" before people just blast them out. If the answer isn't amiable to me, then I will be left with no recourse but to assume as many say, that this game "isn't the game for me", because it's apparently being built as a game that is designed to actively encourage "accepted forms of grief".
And yes, no matter how much people are going to argue with me, I consider killing someone for no reason other then to take a chance at rolling the dice for the items on their corpse one of the highest forms of grief even possible. It is me losing potentially hours of my time because the system in place downgraded my character to the same status as a mob - "kill it and see if it drops any loot." That is not "fun". It is not "meaningful interaction". That is /quit unsubscribe.
That's a shame Robb, I was hoping my bandit would draw swords with you in game: "He MUST be carrying something valuable to fear being robbed so much!" I joke, in poor taste perhaps. :)
Sorry Avena. UO left this scar on me, and this one is never gonna fade. There's tons of things, absolutely *tons* of things, I'm willing to give a second chance, but this one's absolutely off the table for me. And out there in somewhere, I have dozens of scar-brothers who are silently nodding and thinking "Amen, brother. Preach it." PVP looting is the reason why I won't play Eve, and it is pretty much sounding like it's going to be the reason I won't play PFO.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Why does the decision to allow looting require that the expected value of random killing and looting be positive? UO balanced that poorly, both in low costs and high rewards.
If the expected value of random looting as a behavior is negative, random looters will go bankrupt no matter how effective they are.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Sorry Avena. UO left this scar on me, and this one is never gonna fade...
Ah, so you say that you like WoW and it's clones much better because you can't possibly charred by them. Fine. More power to you.
But I hate the boring repetitive superficial nature of the games that tried to not be UO. EQ, WOW and whatnot poured out the baby with the bathwater in order to provide a shallow experience for the masses.
The Blizzard boards are chock full with whiners that hate what WoW "has become" (which is naive, because it is what it always has been).
So I will take the chance that PFO manages what EVE has managed as well, to build a game with an interesting community that provides interesting, non-scripted challenges for years and years for those who can stomach that they will loose sometimes and be stomped upon only to triumph another time.
Why does the decision to allow looting require that the expected value of random killing and looting be positive? UO balanced that poorly, both in low costs and high rewards.
If the expected value of random looting as a behavior is negative, random looters will go bankrupt no matter how effective they are.
Decius: If the expected value of random looting as a behavior is negative, then why bother even having it in the game? At that point there is no value added to the game by having that as a feature.
MicMan, what point are you trying to make? I have already said numerous times, heck, I've even said it on *THIS PAGE OF THIS THREAD*, that I am not that opposed to PVP being in the game. I will not, however, play a game with PVP looting. That's off the table for me. It adds nothing to the game but frustration.
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Goblin Squad Member
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MicMan, what point are you trying to make? I have already said numerous times, heck, I've even said it on *THIS PAGE OF THIS THREAD*, that I am not that opposed to PVP being in the game. I will not, however, play a game with PVP looting. That's off the table for me. It adds nothing to the game but frustration.
I know your point... but what good is pvp if it is kill, corpse run back into the fight and then rinse and repeat? because that is what you are asking for basically.
And sorry but that is just wow and themepark pvp. If you want real meaningfull pvp, there need to be some consequence to it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Robb: And here is where you are wrong.
It adds risk to PvP where else there would be none.
If you go and mine some precious ore for your guild and you run the risk of being killed and loose the ore, this forces you to bring protection or face the risk. It gives bodyguards something to do, it forces you to be part of the community while in the other case you would only shrug, respawn and run again, hoping to get through this time.
World of a difference.
@Robb: And here is where you are wrong.
It adds risk to PvP where else there would be none.
If you go and mine some precious ore for your guild and you run the risk of being killed and loose this forces you to bring protection or face the risk. It gives bodyguards something to do it forces you to be part of the community while in the other way you would only shrug and run again, hoping to get through this time.
World of a difference.
Yes, and again, it forces an undue burden of the risk onto the party that *doesn't even want to participate*. The person who wants to PVP puts all their stuff in a stash, grabs some throwaway gear, and goes out and initiates combat. The other person has no recourse but to have the high value item on them. It is win/win for the PVP initiator and lose/lose for the victim.
I know very well how this works. You grab your throwaway gear, minimalist reagents, and go murder some miners to get their ore. When you get it, you go stash it so they can't ever get it it back, and repeat the process. If you die, who cares, you grab another set of throwaway gear and go repeat the process. If PK hunters come, you just move somewhere else.
It's a dog/cat/mouse game that has zero positive benefit for the mouse. No one wants to be the mouse.
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The only people losing anything substantial will be those that aren't thinking and playing with more expensive stuff than they can afford to replace.
@Robb
Does your frustration come from losing your stuff, or somebody getting a reward for besting you in combat?
The frustration of losing stuff, and in addition, losing even MORE TIME replacing said stuff, from someone who is required to put nothing of significance on the line for the chance to take said stuff.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Robb: And here is where you are wrong.
It adds risk to PvP where else there would be none.
If you go and mine some precious ore for your guild and you run the risk of being killed and loose this forces you to bring protection or face the risk. It gives bodyguards something to do it forces you to be part of the community while in the other way you would only shrug and run again, hoping to get through this time.
World of a difference.
Yes, and again, it forces an undue burden of the risk onto the party that *doesn't even want to participate*. The person who wants to PVP puts all their stuff in a stash, grabs some throwaway gear, and goes out and initiates combat. The other person has no recourse but to have the high value item on them. It is win/win for the PVP initiator and lose/lose for the victim.
With the risk of being blunt, insulting and god knows what else, I am going to post this.
What you want is basically the following:
A sandbox MMO, where you have your themepark mixed into it, with your raiding and no loss of items if you mess up.
Just, no... just... NO!
Sandbox MMO is called a sandbox mmo for a reason. Everything and I mean everything is done and policed by you the player. If you feel you cannot handle the loss of items in either PVE or PVP then you should never look towards a sandbox MMO.
However, if you are willing to put in the effort, risk and the thrill of it, it will become so much more rewarding.
Also, as for only picking the cheap items, it won't happen because people will be risking everything in territory warfare etc. Hell, people risk billions in a single fight in eve online, and sometimes they get lucky.
However, people here are only looking towards a random gank and cry then. However, there is more to this all, dropping your loot is going to happen in PvE as well, you are going to have to craft or have someone else make that armor for you. It is that black and white. There will also be the settlement warfare where whole charters will risk their settlement, their gear and their reputation by doing so. Do you think they will come in their starter gear and hope to win? no, they will stockpile up on gear, and when people die replace it.
Sandbox MMO =/= lonewolf like in a themepark MMO in certain aspects.
(sorry if I come over cross, harsh or just blunt)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think Robb has a very good point. If pvp looting doesn't add anything valuable, what IS the point of it?
If its a case of removing things from the economy- it doesn't any more than merchant trade does by the way- then surely durability and destroying items is the way to go? With a chance of diminishing returns on repairs?
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Goblin Squad Member
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It's a dog/cat/mouse game that has zero positive benefit for the mouse. No one wants to be the mouse.
And this is where various measures come into play. If you think these will not work then we are at the effective end of the discussion because, very simply, PFO will not work without corpse looting as this is an integral part of wars guild against guild that would otherwise never end (considering that it is very very hard to destroy structures, which is a must be).
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Goblin Squad Member
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The frustration of losing stuff, and in addition, losing even MORE TIME replacing said stuff, from someone who is required to put nothing of significance on the line for the chance to take said stuff.
Not sure which rodeos you been to but in AoC they put in a very simple "criminal" game mechanic to keep people from killing lower levels and good grief it cut ganking in half almost over night.
Those criminal tags really do hurt the playability of a charcater and grinding to get rid of those points (similar to what this system will require) was a major hassle that even the most determined griefer thought 2 or 3 times about.
Naturally, that game still had plenty of arsehattery but I saw first hand that if the game developers really want to have a non griefing game, they can. It's really not that hard all it takes is a firm desire for it from the company.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think Robb has a very good point. If pvp looting doesn't add anything valuable, what IS the point of it?
It adds:
* the incentive to group -> better community* a reason for PvP -> more meaningful interaction
* a mechanic how guild wars can be decided -> reason for even more exciting interaction
I think none of these expendable.
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With the risk of being blunt, insulting and god knows what else, I am going to post this.
What you want is basically the following:
A sandbox MMO, where you have your themepark mixed into it, with your raiding and no loss of items if you mess up.
No, being equally blunt in return, what I want is Pathfinder Online, not Eve 2: Now with swords.
You'll also notice that I haven't commented at all on the PVE portion, have I?
That's because I don't mind it as much.
In PVE, I control some of the risk. In PVE, I can pretty much run away from situations out of my control (if you run in PVP, the ganker just assumes it's because you have a real reason to run and will pursue you till the ends of the earth.) In PVE, I'm usually the one initiating the combat on my terms, not getting jumped while I'm at half health fighting 2 or 3 monsters. I have access to at least SOME FORM of risk-mitigation.
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Goblin Squad Member
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| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think Robb has a very good point. If pvp looting doesn't add anything valuable, what IS the point of it?It adds:
* the incentive to group -> better community
* a reason for PvP -> more meaningful interaction
* a mechanic how guild wars can be decided -> reason for even more exciting interactionI think none of these expendable.
How does "random item of loot, not a major piece of equipment" achieve any of those things?
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Goblin Squad Member
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The frustration of losing stuff, and in addition, losing even MORE TIME replacing said stuff, from someone who is required to put nothing of significance on the line for the chance to take said stuff.
Replacing your stuff is designed not to be a huge deal. The core of your equipment stays with you, and everything else you use will be cheap and in high supply on the markets.
In EvE you lose everything when you die, but all you have to do is buy extra's when you are fitting a ship, then you simply activate a new ship and load your fitting, it takes 30 seconds if not less. If you are running low on your favorite supplies, you take the minute or two to quickly re-stock on the market.
In your miner example. Those miners deserve to lose all their stuff, because they should have had guards with them.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yeah, as if a risk free game was interesting.
Again, no risk no fun. I much prefer a game where I am overjoyed to bring home a nice stash of ore savely, even if it means that I sometimes loose it, than a game where everything is pretty much totally risk free and repetitive like hell.
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Goblin Squad Member
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My 2 coppers on some factors, which may impact on how non-consentual PvP will be viewed by the playerbase:
1. Map size vs. the amount of players
Unlesss GW will have the ability to expand the map on demand once the game (hopefully) takes off, there is a high risk that certain (if not all) areas of the map become overpopulated. This in turn may lead more unwanted PvP experiences than would happen if the player would be more spaced out.
2. Players' ability to "unite" hexes
In case lawful player organizations would be able to create larger areas forming a (relative) safe zone, this might lead to a natural frontline forming between the lawful and chaotic settlements.
If the bulk of the PvP conflict would take place within the frontline (or within the chaotic area), this would make it easier for players wanting to avoid PvP to enjoy the rest of the game (without detracting anything from players actively looking for PvP conflicts).
3. Role of gear vs. looting and dropping
Personally I have no major issues the possibility of (certain) gear being lootable -as long as the said gear does not have major impact on ability to play the game and require significant grind to get.
The potential that this game would turn into (another) gear grinder is probably what concerns me the most in the whole looting discussion.
4. Player choice and looting
If players will drop gear when defeated, it might be interesting to introduce some choices for the victorious player. For example the victorious combatant might have the following options:
a) No looting, in which case there would be no additional alignment hit (assuming there is any alignment hit to begin with, I am assuming you can loot CE characters without any hit and destroying their gear should actually improve your alignment).
b) Loot coin only, in which case there would be a small additional alignment hit.
c) Loot coin and item(s) (if any), with a larger additional alignment hit.
d) Loot and destroy the rest, with the largest additional alignment hit.
This type of a system would put the decision on how to deal with looting as well as the consequences of the same in the hands of the victorious player. In an ideal situation this might make the whole experience more meaningful (and also corpse runs more exciting, as there might be a better chance of something being retrievable when you get back).
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Goblin Squad Member
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How does "random item of loot, not a major piece of equipment" achieve any of those things?
Nothing is set in stone. The above quote was used to say that you are not in risk to loose all your gear from a single death. But I imagine that, just like in EVE, you will loose the raw materials you carry because everything else would make no sense.
Also what Fruben said.
If you control hexes and wipe them from people with a low reputation (kill them on sight) you will have managed something. Mining will be save, it will be an archievemtn, a sense of accomplishment.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Why does the decision to allow looting require that the expected value of random killing and looting be positive? UO balanced that poorly, both in low costs and high rewards.
If the expected value of random looting as a behavior is negative, random looters will go bankrupt no matter how effective they are.
Decius: If the expected value of random looting as a behavior is negative, then why bother even having it in the game? At that point there is no value added to the game by having that as a feature.
Because it is one possible emergent behavior enabled by features which also enable desired behaviors. It's nontrival to allow members of warring settlements to attack and defend the shipments bound for each other without also allowing arbitrary individuals to attack other arbitrary individuals, and targeting and misdirecting infrastructure attacks is a desired high-level behavior.
The frustration of losing stuff, and in addition, losing even MORE TIME replacing said stuff, from someone who is required to put nothing of significance on the line for the chance to take said stuff.
Nobody who isn't putting anything on the line (in terms of consumable equipment) is likely to win against someone who is. Those who put more skin in the game (by having better than standard consumable equipment) will be prized targets for bounty hunters as well.
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Goblin Squad Member
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In PVE, I control some of the risk. In PVE, I can pretty much run away from situations out of my control (if you run in PVP, the ganker just assumes it's because you have a real reason to run and will pursue you till the ends of the earth.) In PVE, I'm usually the one initiating the combat on my terms, not getting jumped while I'm at half health fighting 2 or 3 monsters. I have access to at least SOME FORM of risk-mitigation.
One of my favorite PnP sessions recently was one where the DM had a staged encounter. We picked a fight with a group of goblins. Easy enough. A few rounds in, the goblin hounds that heard the cries and din of battle ran in. Shortly after that, the head goblin druid came in from the brush as he was investigating the noise himself. That was a tough battle and nearly got us killed. I don't see how my story is that different from the PvP scenario you describe.
In your miner example. Those miners deserve to lose all their stuff, because they should have had guards with them.
Yes, I am certain there will be a sizable portion of the player base who wants to stand around in case something happens while people mine.
At least there's one thing that's becoming rather clear from these discussions, and that is that I think GoblinWorks needs to be very clear, blunt, and direct about whether they are making a PVP Game that involves some Pathfinder, or a Pathfinder game that involves some PVP. If the entire point of this game is to create "meaningful human interactions" by constant exposure to PVP, then I fail to see what the game has to do with pathfinder outside of vague ties to the setting.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Robb Smith
Why would you go out alone to harvest a rare resource if you already know you could be killed and lose a significant amount of your inventory. It seems you already understand the risk vs reward scenarios with doing this type of action.
Firstly I want to clarify a few points. If you go to a rare resource spot to harvest it, you won’t be doing the harvesting. You will setup a camp and the NPC sims will harvest for you. Your job is to manage the harvesting operation and defend it from random encounters that are attracted to your harvesting efforts.
Since you’re harvesting a rare resource, you’re almost certain to incite attacks from monsters. Therefore when you go to harvest the valuable resource you’ll go expecting trouble and should be geared up for it. Thus if you attract the attention of monsters or other players you’re still expecting trouble and should have made preparations for it.
Secondly, let’s assume that you had no random encounters while the resource was harvested. What is your plan to get the resource back to safety? Assuming you already know that the resource is heavy and cumbersome and you can only carry a limited supply how were you planning on getting it to a safe point?
One would assume that you would have planned for this contingency already, and you have brought along extra bodies to both protect your harvesting operation, and to assist with carrying the resource back to a safe location.
In conclusion I really can’t see how it is a sensible decision to go off alone to try and harvest a rare resources. Even if there was no PVP you’d still have to have enough people with you to defend the operation from powerful random encounters, and have enough manpower to carry the resource home. It would be a bit silly to go off solo to do this operation as you’re almost certainly doomed to failure and frustration from the outset.
If we factor in the time it took to gather the resource then you would possibly have to make multiple hour long trips in an effort to kill off the monsters that just crashed your solo harvesting operation and then make multiple hour long trips carry your resource back to town, where you’d probably get attacked by other random encounters.
Therefore IMHO Solo harvesting = an unwise frustrating decision that would be a complete waste of time.
If it makes sense to travel as a group to harvest a resource, fight off monsters, and carry the resource back to town in a strictly non-pvp setting. Doesn’t it also make sense to take the same precautions in PFO where you’ll have to contend with other players wanting the resource you want.
You’ve already mentioned that you’re part of a guild that will field at least 200 players on day 1 of open enrolments. I suggest you allocate some of your guild to protect your harvesting operations. Heck! With that many players you could easily camp around a resource, create multiple camps, bleed the resource dry and safely bring it to market.
For others who don’t have the luxury of belonging to such a large guild, you’ll still need to be in a group if you want to venture into the wilds. Some other options to assist in your efforts could be as follows.
- Build hide-outs near your harvesting camp to store important gear or harvested resources.
- Have guards patrolling your camp to give you advance warning
- Places traps around your harvesting camp
- Go the long way home. Don’t travel known roads if you want your resources to get back to town
- Send out scouts along you’re planned route to find a safe way home.
I’m sure more creative minds can easily add to the list.
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Goblin Squad Member
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How does "random item of loot, not a major piece of equipment" achieve any of those things?
It's more about losing everything else, the gear drop is basically a lottery.
It strengthens the possible bounty system, instead of paying a huge sum to mildly inconvenience someone, you can pay a huge sum to make sure that person gets killed until they have lost a huge sum of money.
The alignment/reputation penalties will more or less keep the average person for engaging in random PvP attacks.
And it's not a 'random item' it's a 'random selection'.