Ok so were 10th level in a ROTRL camp and im currently playing Dwarf Ranger and i was just fleshing this guy out as a replacement if the Dwarf gets killed. Any opinions are welcome, Thanks!
Human Fighter (2Hand) 10th
Str-24
Dex-14
Con-14
Int-10
Wis-12
Cha-8
Feats:
H-Power Attack
1st-Weapon Focus-Nodachi
2nd-Imp. Unarmed Strike
3rd-Tiger Style
4th-Weapon Spec.
5th-Iron Will
6th-Tiger Claws
7th-Lunge
8th-Greater Weapon Focus
9th-Tiger Pounce
10th-? Opinions plz
Gear:
+1 Keen Nodachi
+4 Belt of Str.
+4 Cloak of Resistance
+2 Breastplate
+1 Ring of Prot.
+1 Amulet of NA
Gloves of Dueling
Traits:
Indom. Will
? Opinions plz, maybe reactionary or armor expert
Currently his attacks would look like
1st- +24 1d10+25 15/20x2
2nd- +19 1d10+29 15/20x2
Saves look like
Fort +13
Reflex +9
Will +11
For 11th + level feats i was gonna start into the crit chain
11th-Crit Focus(I suppose this could be taken at 10th)
12th-NVM i forgot abt G. Weapon Spec
13th-Staggering Crit
14th-Critical Mastery
15h-Blinding Critical
Thanks Again!
I was taking the tiger style for the tiger pounce ability to take power attack negatives to ac rather than to hit.. I suppose Dazing wouldnt be to bad considering he doesnt have a penalty from power attack.. Not sure if its worth the static damage with stag crit coming online at 13, but deff worht thinking about thanks! Also do yall think it would be better to get blind crit at 14th and crit mastery at 15th since mastery isnt usable until u have 2 crit feats?
The main reason for tiger style feats is the capstone:
Tiger Pounce (Combat)
Your unarmed strikes are as precise as they are powerful, but they leave you open and you can pursue foes with blinding speed.
Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike, Power Attack, Tiger Claws, Tiger Style, base attack bonus +9 or monk level 8th.
Benefit: While using the Tiger Style feat, you can apply the penalty from Power Attack to your AC instead of attack rolls. Additionally, once per round as a swift action, you can move up to half your speed closer to a target you hit with an unarmed strike or made a successful combat maneuver against on this turn or your last turn.
There;s no restiction to the weapon used when taking the penalty to AC of Hit when power attacking.. This becomes a huge bonus and well worth the 4 feats spent to get it imho.. It tranlates into a +3 damage every 4 levels(including 1st) with no penalty and at 15th level will become a +4 damage for every 4 levels(including 1st)..
Well, if he wants to optimize damage thats actually not the worst idea, fighter have the feats. Most other feats he could take would increase utility and flexibility but not damage.
Eldritch heritge and tiger style feats are the only way to increase your damage after you took all the common fighter feats.
But honestly I think the 4 EH feats are even better than the tiger style ones when you're going to reach really high levels.
I was taking the tiger style for the tiger pounce ability to take power attack negatives to ac rather than to hit.. I suppose Dazing wouldnt be to bad considering he doesnt have a penalty from power attack.. Not sure if its worth the static damage with stag crit coming online at 13, but deff worht thinking about thanks! Also do yall think it would be better to get blind crit at 14th and crit mastery at 15th since mastery isnt usable until u have 2 crit feats?I do not know, you have to use 4 feats to do that and your Ac suffers.
Ok so if there was a chain of feats that instead said:
For every 4bab you have u gain -1ac and in return u gain +3damage when weilding a 2handed weapon, this bonus becomes +4 at 15th level..Im pretty sure any serious dpr build would do this.. and its exactly what tiger style does..
Well, if he wants to optimize damage thats actually not the worst idea, fighter have the feats. Most other feats he could take would increase utility and flexibility but not damage.
Eldritch heritge and tiger style feats are the only way to increase your damage after you took all the common fighter feats.
But honestly I think the 4 EH feats are even better than the tiger style ones when you're going to reach really high levels.
I always consider the EH-Orc feat chain when building a 2hander guy, but somtimes its hard flavor wise to concieve it.. NTM i usually dump cha and wouldnt wanna have to rely on a +4 headband to get Imp. EH..
Thanks for the input though!
Flavor wise hes a Tien Fighter with come tigerish stuff about him, i think it works.. What are yalls thoughts on the 10th level feat and traits?
Yall honestly think burning a feat for somthing that can be bought is better? Gold is easy to get, feats are not.. Thanks again for all the imput though!
you dont have a feat that adds 3.5 damage, but you have a feat that equals the keen enchantment.
I'd strongly consider 3 levels in Chevalier. The benefits of that class come in very useful in RotRL, esp for a low Will save fighter. You're going to have MAJOR problems with Will saves.
==Aelryinth
The point of improved critical is for when you get a new sword and so you can use that +1 for something else.
May I recommend, instead of Lunge, take Improved Bull Rush. Then at 10th, Bull Rush Strike. This allows you to make a free bull rush on a critical. It opens up combat positioning, taking Greater Bull Rush later on, and you can use your Swift Action to use Tiger Pounce, getting extra movement in a round.
It also opens up "This Is Sparta" moments, wherein you critically knock someone off a ledge or into your sorcerer's Spiked Pit.
dazing assault is superior to the entire crit line.
I agree that Dazing Assault is good.. The only thing i dont like about it is that if the save is made nothing happens.. Now the save is high enough that most none full fort saves monsters will have a decent chance to fail it though, so thats good.. Staggering critical still staggers for 1 round even on a save is why its superior to me.. But with feats to spare and no penalty from power attack might as well take both.. I could see it helping my low AC out as well, Dazed = 0 attacks..
With that in mind im thinking Imp. Iron Will at 10th, Crit Focus at 11th, Dazing Assault at 12th, Staggering Crit at 13th, G. Weapon Spec at 14th..
The tradeoff is that all you need to do is hit, which considering
your tiger style and haste, you should be getting three hits a round. that's 3 saves. even low saves can be difficult if you have to make three times every round.
I think your build and dazing assualt are pretty much peanut butter and jelly. it's a really powerful combo, and I'm sure some might argue overpowered.
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I'm not sure Tiger Style works as mentioned. In every description it states unarmed strikes. The capstone mentions "While using the Tiger Style feat". Looking at the Tiger Style feat, it's descriptions says "your unarmed fighting style emulates that of a tiger" and within benefits "you can also deal slashing damage with your unarmed strike". Sure you gain a static defense bonus to CMD, but your offensive bonus only applies to unarmed strikes. Therefore I think it's pretty obvious the creators intend for the offensive capstone bonus to apply with the original feat's offensive bonus.
Furious Focus is an absolute must. You can open up with Dazzling Assault while retaining your power attack damage.
Other feats I'd suggest are Dodge and Improved Iron Will.
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That 6000 in gold can be a wayfinder + that ioun stone that make you inmune to mental control by evil creatures.
Make sure to discuss this with your GM first. There is debate on the boards as to what "mind control" refers too. The devs stated it only prevents direct control such as dominate person, but the subject is still susceptible to confusion, sleep, fear, ect.
Yea im sold on Dazing Assualt at this point.. It will be taken at 11th..
The Wayfinder/Ion stone is a good idea too ill have to look into that. I think ive settled on 10th level feat as Imp. Iron Will..
Wow that is nice!, For 4500gp u no longer have to eat or drink water and get a perma protection from evil... And a light spell.. Nice Combo deal there!
I'm not sure Tiger Style works as mentioned. In every description it states unarmed strikes. The capstone mentions "While using the Tiger Style feat". Looking at the Tiger Style feat, it's descriptions says "your unarmed fighting style emulates that of a tiger" and within benefits "you can also deal slashing damage with your unarmed strike". Sure you gain a static defense bonus to CMD, but your offensive bonus only applies to unarmed strikes. Therefore I think it's pretty obvious the creators intend for the offensive capstone bonus to apply with the original feat's offensive bonus.
Furious Focus is an absolute must. You can open up with Dazzling Assault while retaining your power attack damage.
Other feats I'd suggest are Dodge and Improved Iron Will.
Tiger Style (Combat, Style)
Your unarmed fighting style emulates the strength and ferocity of a tiger.Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike, base attack bonus +3 or monk level 3rd.
Benefit: While using this style, you gain a +2 bonus to your CMD against bull rush, overrun, and trip maneuvers. You can also deal slashing damage with your unarmed strikes. Whenever you score a critical hit with your slashing unarmed strike, your opponent also takes 1d4 points of bleed damage at the start of his next two turns.
Normal: Unarmed strikes deal bludgeoning damage.
It says u may deal slashing damage with your UAS, it never says u cant wield a weapon while using tiger style..
I'm not sure Tiger Style works as mentioned. In every description it states unarmed strikes. The capstone mentions "While using the Tiger Style feat". Looking at the Tiger Style feat, it's descriptions says "your unarmed fighting style emulates that of a tiger" and within benefits "you can also deal slashing damage with your unarmed strike". Sure you gain a static defense bonus to CMD, but your offensive bonus only applies to unarmed strikes. Therefore I think it's pretty obvious the creators intend for the offensive capstone bonus to apply with the original feat's offensive bonus.
Furious Focus is an absolute must. You can open up with Dazzling Assault while retaining your power attack damage.
Other feats I'd suggest are Dodge and Improved Iron Will.
it's a tough call. the heading leads one to believe that it should only apply to unarmed strikes. however in every other case including this feat itself they always say you hit with unarmed strike.
I'm inclined to agree with the OP, that as written the feat is weapon agnostic, because in every other case where a benefit is conferred the method or weapon of attack was specified.
Regardless of what it was "intended" to be used for, there's nothing rulewise not permittin your to wield weapons while using tiger style..
The same was argued about using a weapon while pounceing with a beast totem barb.. It was cleared stated by the devs that u can regardless of its "intended" use..
I personally don't like this build at all, it you want to take all those "styles" go with a monk.
If you want to do a big bad 2h pouncing monster think bout going with a barbarian with the beast totem line to gain pounce via the Greater Beast Totem.
Which was placed in the FAQ in February 2012.
Any melee attack sequence you can perform as a full attack is allowed as part of the charge-pounce-full attack. For example, a barbarian with the greater beast totem rage power gains the pounce universal monster ability and could make iterative attacks with manufactured melee weapons as part of her charge-pounce-full attack.
—Sean K Reynolds, 02/21/12
The other option is the Mobile Fighter Archetype so that you can move and full attack at 11th level.
I personally don't like this build at all, it you want to take all those "styles" go with a monk.
If you want to do a big bad 2h pouncing monster think bout going with a barbarian with the beast totem line to gain pounce via the Greater Beast Totem.
Which was placed in the FAQ in February 2012.** spoiler omitted **
The other option is the Mobile Fighter Archetype so that you can move and full attack at 11th level.
I think your confused. we aren't talking about the movement ability. we are taking about the power attacking ability. and now there isn't a class including barbarians that can wreak the level of melee devastation (read: damage) that a two handed power attacking dazing assaulting tiger pounce figher can do
I was replying to the OP and his original build I didn't read through most of the rest of the posts. To me Power Attack is a MUST in any build for a 2H fighter/barbarian/ranger who wants to get the most DPR out of their character. I also like Dazing Assault, but like Stunning Assault better for fighters at level 16, at that level I'd retrain Dazing for a different combat feat that could help up my damage even more.
Tiger style and tiger pounce are clearly written for the unarmed attacks with an unarmed fighter or monk not to the 2H Power Attacking Dazing Assault unless I missed something about being able to use two weapon fighting with the tiger style and pounce RAW?
Your unarmed fighting style emulates the strength and ferocity of a tiger.
Prerequisite: Improved Unarmed Strike, base attack bonus +3 or monk level 3rd.
Benefit: While using this style, you gain a +2 bonus to your CMD against bull rush, overrun, and trip maneuvers. You can also deal slashing damage with your unarmed strikes. Whenever you score a critical hit with your slashing unarmed strike, your opponent also takes 1d4 points of bleed damage at the start of his next two turns.
Normal: Unarmed strikes deal bludgeoning damage.
It clearly states UNARMED fighting style in the description which means NO weapons can be used with this style, this isn't the same as the barbarian pounce ability where it gives a caveat or has been explained by the Devs. That's the reason I posted my opinion before with the pouncing barbarian and the mobile fighter.
No where does it say u cant use this in conjunction with a melee weapon, it just says that u may deal slashing damage with ur uas if u choose too.. Ive seen mutiple builds that use Crane Style in conjunction with melee weapons and it has the same sentence in its start.. I would have to have a dev say otherwise for me not to play this as i have it..
Additionally ive seen kirin style used in arcane archer builds, so to me only if the text included in the description delegates it to an UAS only u can use a melee weapon as well.. Which Tiger Pounce does not..
It says that the prereqs are improved unarmed fighting, it says in it's description : "Your unarmed fighting style emulates the strength and ferocity of a tiger."
It says you gain some bonuses to your CMD, gain slashing damage with unarmed strikes and crits get bleed damage (again unarmed). Everything within the feat/style is intended and written for an unarmed fighter or monk. This is not for usage with normal melee weapons, only natural weapons.
I don't care how you spin it, unless your DM allows a house-rule of this particular feat/style or a Developer weighs in with the intended usage being other than what it says, it is for unarmed only RAW. That simple really and that's how I read it as RAI and RAW.
Keep arguing and we'll go around in circles all day, but there is no way I'd allow it to be used that way in a game I ran. I'd even argue against it in a game where I was a player if another player tried to do it that way even if it benefited the whole party because it would give that other player more DPR. Like I said, if you are running the game or your DM allows it, house-rule it and call it good, but you really don't have a leg to stand on as far as RAW goes with it.
Yes, his unarmed fighting looks cool now. Still it does not say the tiger pounce can only be applied to unarmed attacks.
Yes, his unarmed fighting looks cool now. Still it does not say the tiger pounce can only be applied to unarmed attacks.
Is exactly what im getting at.. Like i said theres several builds that use style feats with melee weapons and its completely legal.. This is another example of this.. Just beacuse a prereq feat involves u using UAS to deal slashing damage doesnt mean u cant use a weapn for the latter.. Now if u wanna house rule things to be ur way thats fine.. This works as is.. Only if in the desription of the style feat does it says "while using UAS" is it limited to just UAS..
Wow really @Wasum? Let's go line by line in what is actually written and break it down okay?
Your unarmed strikes are as precise as they are powerful, but they leave you open and you can pursue foes with blinding speed.
Prerequisite: Improved Unarmed Strike, Power Attack, Tiger Claws, Tiger Style, base attack bonus +9 or monk level 8th.
Benefit: While using the Tiger Style feat, you can apply the penalty from Power Attack to your AC instead of attack rolls. Additionally, once per round as a swift action, you can move up to half your speed closer to a target you hit with an unarmed strike or made a successful combat maneuver against on this turn or your last turn.
1) Tiger Pounce (Combat) - Okay nothing here but the name.
2) Your unarmed strikes are as precise as they are powerful, but they leave you open and you can pursue foes with blinding speed. - Wow would you look at that? It says UNARMED STRIKES!
3) Prerequisite: Improved Unarmed Strike, Power Attack, Tiger Claws, Tiger Style, base attack bonus +9 or monk level 8th. - Again, meant for MONK who is for the most part an unarmed fighter the prerequisite again says "IMPROVED UNARMED STRIKE" and "TIGER CLAWS" nothing about weapons there except unarmed...
4) Benefit: While using the Tiger Style feat, you can apply the penalty from Power Attack to your AC instead of attack rolls. - This means that you are sacrificing your AC by moving up to hit. It has Unarmed Strike mentioned again, hmm wonder why? It's for unarmed fighting!
5) Additionally, once per round as a swift action, you can move up to half your speed closer to a target you hit with an unarmed strike or made a successful combat maneuver against on this turn or your last turn. - UNARMED again, who knew?
That is the whole purpose of this feat/style to upgrade your damage output in regards to unarmed fighting and your movement in order to do so when used in conjunction with all the feat tree stuff from improved unarmed fighting to tiger claws. Nowhere is it even mentioned that this is to be used with melee weapons.
The way it's written and intended is to be used as a supplement to help you close with your enemies and increase DPR using claws and slashing attacks with those said claws. Any other way is a house-rule. Period.
But i agree to disagree, you obv wont see it my way, i wont see it urs so it can be dropped as far as im concerned..
But i agree to disagree, you obv wont see it my way, i wont see it urs so it can be dropped as far as im concerned..
That's fine with me, you won't convince me either unless you can get a Developer to weigh in and tell me I'm wrong with how the rule is written, intended, or errata'd somewhere that I've never been able to find.
You're interpreting. RAW do not say anything about you have to use unarmed strikes to gain the benefit of the tiger pounce feat. It only requires to use tiger style. And nowhere in the description of tiger style is written that you cannot use it while wielding a weapon. RAW is pretty clear on that. If you wanna make up houserules go ahead, but dont claim it to be RAW.
:P
it's pretty clear it does not say that, as a lawyer, i think it's pretty werepox47 wins on text, ie RAW.
you may say, it was was written with is mind, or intended what not, but what is acually written, supports werepox47, and that is the specicially the power attack portion is weapon agnostic.
First off a bit of a /rant I call BS @irkarinokami, I don't care if you are a lawyer or not, that doesn't fly with me. I am married to an attorney so your little spiel carries no influence on me to make me think you are right, attorneys are right as often as they are wrong. You are entitled to your opinion as everyone else is, but being an attorney doesn't give it more value or credence than anyone else. /end rant
Now on to proving you are wrong in my opinion, which is just as valid as anyone else's:
The prerequisites to the Tiger Style and Tiger Pounce clearly state what is required in order to qualify for them. Both have improved unarmed strike, both absolutely state in their descriptions what can be done (via unarmed strike again and again and again). You may be a lawyer, but you are dead wrong on this as it is not part of "law" anywhere it is rules in a game where the rules are clearly stated throughout the text.
If you are asking for RAW or RAI, this is meant for unarmed combat only with the use of fists, up to and including claws. Period, end of story. Nowhere does it say it allows weapons, it doesn't need to or else it would state somewhere in the prerequisites that you need something like improved two-weapon fighting, greater two-weapon fighting, or something along those lines.
If you are going to do a house-ruling, that's up to individual members and the DM in the game they are a part of. I don't agree with a lot of the rules in this game, but if I want to change something I either ask for a house-rule to be implemented (as a player) or implement one as a GM.
EDIT: A bit more to back up my claims from the Pathfinder Reference Document
As a swift action, you can enter the stance employed by the fighting style a style feat embodies. Although you cannot use a style feat before combat begins, the style you are in persists until you spend a swift action to switch to a different combat style. You can use a feat that has a style feat as a prerequisite only while in the stance of the associated style. For example, if you have feats associated with Mantis Style and Tiger Style, you can use a swift action to adopt Tiger Style at the start of one turn, and then can use other feats that have Tiger Style as a prerequisite. By using another swift action at the start of your next turn, you could adopt Mantis Style and use other feats that have Mantis Style as a prerequisite.
The 2nd spoiler is the real nail in the coffin for my argument being 100% correct. Cheers!
RAI and RAW is a huge difference. RAI you might be right, RAW you're not because there is no syntactic reference to some kind of restriction when it comes to tiger pounce. And you cant even argue about it because there just is none. When you start interpreting you may conclude its meant for USs, but thats not RAW but RAI
Look at the tiger style spoiler above please, it gives you everything you need to know. This is straight from the PRD and thus ends my argument that as far as RAW and RAI, I am correct. You can't use your hands as claws and then use weapons. It's physically impossible. Thanks for playing!
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If you are asking for RAW or RAI, this is meant for unarmed combat only with the use of fists, up to and including claws.
After rereading the RAW I believe WerePox47 is right. I've seen Crane Style used with melee weapons and it's the exact same scenario. RAW states "when using Tiger Style you gain +2 to CMD, ect.". There's nothing dictating the circumstances under which you can use a style. Even though the flavor text of EVERY style denotes them as unarmed, there's no restriction stating that a user must be unarmed.
After rereading the RAW I must believe WerePox47 is right. I've seen Crane Style used with melee weapons and it's the exact same scenario. RAW states "when using Tiger Style you gain +2 to CMD, ect.". There's nothing dictating the circumstances under which you can use a style. Even though the flavor text of EVERY style denotes them as unarmed, there's no restriction stating that a user must be unarmed.
If you are asking for RAW or RAI, this is meant for unarmed combat only with the use of fists, up to and including claws.
Wrong, wrong, and wrong. Just because it doesn't explicitly say that you CAN'T doesn't mean you CAN or SHOULD. In the RAW, nowhere does it state my character can't craft a nuclear bomb and toss it on the BBEG's city, but we all know that Golarion is a high-fantasy game and the RAI means that technology that advanced isn't part of the game. The same can be said for many rules, you have to use discretion and actual intelligence to figure some of the things out, some things may be silly to you and that's when you come up with house-rules to alleviate your concerns. Other things you shouldn't read too much into and try to "loophole", squeeze, or stretch rules for. This is one of those cases.
For everyone who thinks that the usage of weapons when using claws which is what the tiger style does is correct I'll quote one of my favorite authors:
WRONG WRONG WRONG
Seriously....
After rereading the RAW I must believe WerePox47 is right. I've seen Crane Style used with melee weapons and it's the exact same scenario. RAW states "when using Tiger Style you gain +2 to CMD, ect.". There's nothing dictating the circumstances under which you can use a style. Even though the flavor text of EVERY style denotes them as unarmed, there's no restriction stating that a user must be unarmed.
If you are asking for RAW or RAI, this is meant for unarmed combat only with the use of fists, up to and including claws.Wrong, wrong, and wrong. Just because it doesn't explicitly say that you CAN'T doesn't mean you CAN or SHOULD. In the RAW, nowhere does it state my character can't craft a nuclear bomb and toss it on the BBEG's city, but we all know that Golarion is a high-fantasy game and the RAI means that technology that advanced isn't part of the game. The same can be said for many rules, you have to use discretion and actual intelligence to figure some of the things out, some things may be silly to you and that's when you come up with house-rules to alleviate your concerns. Other things you shouldn't read too much into and try to "loophole", squeeze, or stretch rules for. This is one of those cases.
For everyone who thinks that the usage of weapons when using claws which is what the tiger style does is correct I'll quote one of my favorite authors: ** spoiler omitted **
your arguement is not very sound and you continue to conflate RAW and RAI.