Damage Reduction Clarification

[Saturos]

Lets say the BBEG has DR 15 bludgeoning / 10 Good

Do you need to overcome both DRs or not?

Will a Holy Longsword be affected by the DR 15 bludgeoning and vice-versa will a Plain old mace be affected by the DR 10 good?

[Michael Sayre]

The strongest DR that applies will be used. So, the DR 15/ Bludgeoning will be taken out out of the longsword damage, and the DR 10/ Good will mitigate some of the damage from the mace. If the same guy were being hit by a regular longsword, you'd use the best DR that applies, in this case the DR 15/Bludgeoning.

[Booksy]

If it is as you've typed it, Ssalarn is correct.

Be careful with DR, I hate the way they're written.

They're written either DR X 'condition' or DR X/'condition'. The first reduces damage dealt by the condition, the second the condition bypasses the DR.
ex: DR 15 Bludgeoning will reduce any damage from a blunt weapon by 15. Whereas DR 15/Bludgeoning will reduce the damage of anything by 15, except for a blunt weapon which will bypasss it.

[Sean K Reynolds]

They both apply, so you need to keep track of both types of DR.

For example, if you hit it with 10 points of slashing good damage, that bypasses the /10good but doesn't get through the 15/bludgeoning, so it takes no damage. Same if you hit it with 15 points of slashing good damage.

If you hit it with 10 points of bludgeoning non-good damage, that bypasses the 15/bludgeoning but doesn't get through the 10/good, so it takes no damage. If you hit it with 15 bludgeoning non-good, that bypasses the 15/bludgeoning, but the 10/good eats 10 of it, so you only deal 5 points of damage.

So the easiest way to harm it is with a bludgeoning good weapon.

(This sort of rules interaction is why we usually don't give a creature DR against two different things with different numerical values... if it had DR 10/bludgeoning and 10/good you could just say DR 10/bludgeoning and good, and that's clear how it works.)

So, to answer your last question, yes and yes.

[Michael Sayre]

Sean K Reynolds wrote:

They both apply, so you need to keep track of both types of DR.

For example, if you hit it with 10 points of slashing good damage, that bypasses the /10good but doesn't get through the 15/bludgeoning, so it takes no damage. Same if you hit it with 15 points of slashing good damage.

If you hit it with 10 points of bludgeoning non-good damage, that bypasses the 15/bludgeoning but doesn't get through the 10/good, so it takes no damage. If you hit it with 15 bludgeoning non-good, that bypasses the 15/bludgeoning, but the 10/good eats 10 of it, so you only deal 5 points of damage.

So the easiest way to harm it is with a bludgeoning good weapon.

(This sort of rules interaction is why we usually don't give a creature DR against two different things with different numerical values... if it had DR 10/bludgeoning and 10/good you could just say DR 10/bludgeoning and good, and that's clear how it works.)

So, to answer your last question, yes and yes.

Wow, that was completely different than my understanding of how DR was supposed to work. It also doesn't seem to match up with the entry here: "If a creature has damage reduction from more than one source, the two forms of damage reduction do not stack. Instead, the creature gets the benefit of the best damage reduction in a given situation. "

Not to call you out or anything Sean, just pointing out that it looks like the entry in the PRD conflicts with your clarification.

[Jiggy]

"The creature's statblock" and "the creature's statblock" are not two different sources. ;)

[Michael Sayre]

Jiggy wrote:

"The creature's statblock" and "the creature's statblock" are not two different sources. ;)

But DR 15/ Bludgeoning and DR 10/ Good are two different sources of DR...

[Jiggy]

No, they're two different DR's. Not two different SOURCES of DR.

[Michael Sayre]

Jiggy wrote:

No, they're two different DR's. Not two different SOURCES of DR.

First, that doesn't really make any sense. Secondly, it doesn't necessarily apply to the OP's post. HE said the BBEG. It could easily be a devil with a belt that grants the DR/Bludgeoning. That would clearly be two different sources, and the PRD quote would apply. Assuming the quote is correct.

[Nicos]

Ssalarn wrote:

Sean K Reynolds wrote:

They both apply, so you need to keep track of both types of DR.

For example, if you hit it with 10 points of slashing good damage, that bypasses the /10good but doesn't get through the 15/bludgeoning, so it takes no damage. Same if you hit it with 15 points of slashing good damage.

If you hit it with 10 points of bludgeoning non-good damage, that bypasses the 15/bludgeoning but doesn't get through the 10/good, so it takes no damage. If you hit it with 15 bludgeoning non-good, that bypasses the 15/bludgeoning, but the 10/good eats 10 of it, so you only deal 5 points of damage.

So the easiest way to harm it is with a bludgeoning good weapon.

(This sort of rules interaction is why we usually don't give a creature DR against two different things with different numerical values... if it had DR 10/bludgeoning and 10/good you could just say DR 10/bludgeoning and good, and that's clear how it works.)

So, to answer your last question, yes and yes.

Wow, that was completely different than my understanding of how DR was supposed to work. It also doesn't seem to match up with the entry here: "If a creature has damage reduction from more than one source, the two forms of damage reduction do not stack. Instead, the creature gets the benefit of the best damage reduction in a given situation. "

Not to call you out or anything Sean, just pointing out that it looks like the entry in the PRD conflicts with your clarification.

i really do not se the contradiction. The creature benefits from the best DR, in this case if somebody is attaking with a mace then the DR 10/good is the best to have.

[Sean K Reynolds]

Ssalarn wrote:

"If a creature has damage reduction from more than one source, the two forms of damage reduction do not stack. Instead, the creature gets the benefit of the best damage reduction in a given situation."

Sentence 1 means that DR 15/bludgeoning + DR 10/good does not become DR 25/bludgeoning and good—you don't have to break through one, and then break through the other.

Sentence 2 means exactly what I described: Attack the guy with a bludgeoning weapon means the DR/bludgeoning is useless, but he still gets the benefit of his DR/good, because in the situation of "one of my DRs is bypassed, and the other is DR 10/good," then DR 10/good is the best damage reduction in [that] given situation."

To look at it another way:

If you have DR 10/magic and DR 10/bludgeoning, and either magic or bludgeoning would get through your DR, you're actually worse off than if you just had one or the other. With just DR 10/magic, all nonmagical attacks are reduced by 10 points. With just DR 10/bludgeoning, all nonbludgeoning attacks are reduced by 10 points. But with both, the only attacks that are reduced by 10 are those that are neither magic nor bludgeoning. The mace gets through. The +1 dagger gets through. The unarmed strike gets through. The magic arrow gets through. Fortunately, it doesn't work like that—both DRs apply... so the +1 arrow is still reduced by 10 because it's not bludgeoning, the unarmed strike is still reduced by 10 because it's not magic, and so on.

[ryric]

Booksy, I've never seen any DR ever written per your first example - without the slash.

Ssalarn, you and SKR have written the same thing, you just used different words and examples to explain it.

What it means to not stack is that the DRs do not add together - 10/Good and 15/bludgeoning do not add together to make 25/good or bludgeoning, for example.

Edit: Ninja'ed!

[Michael Sayre]

Sean K Reynolds wrote:

Ssalarn wrote:

"If a creature has damage reduction from more than one source, the two forms of damage reduction do not stack. Instead, the creature gets the benefit of the best damage reduction in a given situation."

Sentence 1 means that DR 15/bludgeoning + DR 10/good does not become DR 25/bludgeoning and good—you don't have to break through one, and then break through the other.

Sentence 2 means exactly what I described: Attack the guy with a bludgeoning weapon means the DR/bludgeoning is useless, but he still gets the benefit of his DR/good, because in the situation of "one of my DRs is bypassed, and the other is DR 10/good," then DR 10/good is the best damage reduction in [that] given situation."

Maybe I misunderstood what you were saying. If our theoretical guy is hit by a non-good dagger, will he ignore 25 points, or 15 points? I was understanding you to say that a total of 25 points would be reduced from the attack. Is that correct?

[Sean K Reynolds]

He ignores 15 points. One DR being 15 and the other being 10 makes the example confusing; if it were 10 and 10 it would be obvious that his total DR is "DR 10/bludgeoning and good," and therefore the non-good dagger is dealing with 10 points of DR.

[Michael Sayre]

Sean K Reynolds wrote:

He ignores 15 points. One DR being 15 and the other being 10 makes the example confusing; if it were 10 and 10 it would be obvious that his total DR is "DR 10/bludgeoning and good," and therefore the non-good dagger is dealing with 10 points of DR.

Ok, I got it. We were getting to the same place with different break downs. I thought my understanding was all out of whack, but I was only misunderstanding the way you were saying it. Sorry about that.

[lantzkev]

The non stacking basically is referring to having 3/adamantium and 5/adamantium doesn't give you 8.

You could theoretically have as many sources of DR as you can think of, but only the best would apply unless specified otherwise.

[Saturos]

Okay. I am now confused.

The reason i was asking is because my group is shortly going to begin the final installment of [an adventure] and the boss has the following Defensive Abilities:

DR 10/adamantine, 15/bludgeoning and magic

Does that mean he has 3 different sources of DR =
10/adamantine
15/bludgeoning
15/magic

So are the folloing true:

- an adamantine longsword "soaks" into the bludgeoning and magic DR
- a flail "soaks" into the adamantine* and magic DR
- a magic source "soaks" into adamantine* and blugeoning DR

*if over 10dmg this source of DR becomes redundant

- an adamantine flail "soaks" into the magic DR
- an adamantine +1 longsword "soaks" into the bludgeoning DR
- a +1 flail "soaks" into the adamantine DR

- a +1 adamantine flail bypasses all DR

Is that correct ?

[Sean K Reynolds]

I'm not sure what you mean by "soaks," so let's just simplify the question: what if all of his DR were 10 instead of some of it 10 and some of it 15?

He'd have
10/adamantine, and
10/bludgeoning, and
10/magic

All together that's DR 10/adamantine and bludgeoning and magic. So unless it's all three of those things, the PC's attacks are gonna be reduced by 10 points.

Honestly, it'll probably be a lot easier for you to run this villain if you make all three of his DR abilities 10 or all three of them 15, it avoids the variability that you'll have to figure out for each attack and lets you treat his DR as ##/adamantine and bludgeoning and magic.

[Diego Rossi]

Saturos wrote:

Okay. I am now confused.

The reason i was asking is because my group is shortly going to begin the final installment of the Carrion Crown and the boss has the following Defensive Abilities:
****

There is other people in these board that is playing [that adventure], please use spoiler tags when giving out enemy stats.

Sean,

Spoiler:

probably he has stoneskin running

[Booksy]

okay, dealing strictly with DR X/condition.

DR never stacks(unless specifically noted, Barbarian DR X/- is one such noted exception)

Think of it like a flow chart. You are only going to apply one DR, and only the highest one that appies. Always start with the highest one.

Your example BBEG has 10/admantite, 15/bludgeoning, magic.

He gets hit by something.

vs example Holy Longsword.

vs 15/magic -> bypassed.
vs 15/bludgeoning -> apply -15 damage, done.
if its admantite is immaterial as you've already applied a higher value DR.

Next vs 'plain old mace'
vs 15/magic -> -15 damage, done.
again, don't need to check any further.

Final vs Corrosive Warhammer.
vs 15/magic -> bypasseed,
vs 15/bludgeeoning -> bypassed,
vs 10/admantite -> -10 damage, done.

[Sean K Reynolds]

Diego Rossi wrote:

[SPOILER]

Doesn't change my answer. And he can change the BBEG's DR if he wants to. ;)

I'm gonna scroll up and edit out the spoilers in other posts.

[Booksy]

Wasn't trying to 'correct' anything there Mr.Reynolds =D I was just trying to show the RAW process for Saturos or anyone that may tag this later. Otherwise I myself have simplified multiple DR's in mush the same way as you suggested to save on migraines.