Goblin Squad Member
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Right now I am very concerned about the progress of this kickstarter. While it's true that we are approaching 20% of the total goal and we still have 40+ days to meet the goal... I'm sure you all have noticed the rate of contributions is slowing down. Substantially. And I'm sure people are less eager to shell out cash to get in on the 2nd and 3rd months than they will be to get in on the first.
Unfortunately I've heard at least one person on my own Teamspeak say that they are planning to withdraw their money soon if things don't pick up.
So here is a really two things I would like to see GW do:
1. Spice up the kickstarter rewards / create some new pledge levels. The Kickstarter rewards are bland after the point you get your beta access. This is a very common sentiment, most everyone I have talked to has agreed with on some level. I know I haven't contributed everything I am willing to contribute to this kickstarter yet. But I want to see some cooler rewards. In-game or out of game. They don't need to give mechanical advantages. I just want to see something.
2. Give the community more tools to advertise your game. Signatures we can use on other forums that link to a quick summary stating why PFO is awesome The main page of the GW site does not contain the word crowd-forging. It should. I'd really like to see it contain a bullet point list of a few things that make PFO different like formations and crowd forging.
On the community end we really need to spread the word about PFO more. Me and Solemor have been working on a campaign to advertise both my organization and Pathfinder Online we will be launching when our name change is final after this Friday's clan meeting. To the rest of the community though. I think we should come up with a list of places we could advertise this game.
My ideas so far are:
1. Facebook (Duh)
2. Myspace (If anyone still uses that.)
3. MMORPG.com
4. Friends and family who game(Duh)'
5. Forums for other games, if you can get away with it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I wonder if the Tech Demo footage is a mistake. I think people coming into this cold might are going to have expectations that don't match what the TD is meant to, and come to unwarranted conclusions.
I kind of agree. Showing some clips with the goblin animations will impress people. Showing all of it... only someone who is already following this project will be ok with those choppy combat animations and the horrid red text.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The more people have been commenting on the tech demo, the more I think it is was a mistake to release, 90% of the comments are not related to its purpose. It's not what the community needed to see. I was fine with the demo video when it was just "Look at what your contribution produced" and only kickstarter backers could see it, but it shouldn't have been used as a marketing tool. All GW should be releasing is the character models, concept art, and landscape shots, until there is some actual game footage that can be produced.
GW is already producing a learning curve for PFO, to fully understand a lot of new information, you have to know the older information. And not understanding the old information leads to rash judgments and un-informed opinions. We already had a problem where one person didn't understand the MTX system, and someone thought their misunderstanding was how it actually worked.
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Goblin Squad Member
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In all honesty I hated the tech demo the combat looked so stiff, as did the environment. I was shocked the sword slashing looked dull while the sorcerer's breast seemed to bounce. Regardless I put $100 in because I know the graphics and animation will improve but not everyone knows or thinks that. You only get ONE CHANCE to make a first impression they say.
I echo Andius's concern a bit. Especially as pointed out that opposed to most kickstarters, the incentive to invest decreases as time progresses, rather than increases.
I'm going to have to echo my concern that I simply do not believe that the rewards are consistent with the asked dollar amounts, and right now only the most die-hard pathfinder fans have real reason to invest.
While I personally don't see the game failing to get funded, I also don't see much wiggle room in terms of it hitting any stretch goals, either. And really, stretch goals are what it's all about these days. I'm also going to throw out there that the first stretch goal announced was kind of a turn-off for me. My reaction to it was "uh, what do you mean that not all of the core races will be available?"
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would say it is doing what every kickstarter does. Start fast, slow down in the middle, and then speed up to the end.
Sure it is. But the start wasn't as fast as it should have been and it has slowed down WAY more that it really should have. At this point I am concerned we may not meet the target amount. We certainly won't be hitting stretch goals if we can't get more enthusiasm.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would say it is doing what every kickstarter does. Start fast, slow down in the middle, and then speed up to the end.
B****#$*, the the numbers are not matching.
Shaker this project failed and so far is doing better in dollar's per day than Pathfinder. Both have the same 1 million goal.
Also most successful projects I've backed reach 50% to 100% in their first day. The point is its starting too slow and when you think the "reward" for getting in later is literally getting into the game later vs others. Not many people will be interested in putting in money to be late to the party. Yesterday it made less than 7k. that's less than .007% of the needed total. That's not good.
In short: We need to kick this up a notch. And hey even if you disagree? Who cares? Taking it up a notch can only HELP IT.
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Goblin Squad Member
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In short: We need to kick this up a notch. And hey even if you disagree? Who cares? Taking it up a notch can only HELP IT.
Well said. Even if you think this project is going to succeed for sure, buckling down and taking it more seriously can only help us hit those stretch goals faster.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I seriously doubt that the first tech demo video is the best they have to offer.
I don't think so either but that is why it doesn't belong on the kickstarter page. A pretty logo and a catch phrase are unfortunately huge factors in determining everything from what kind of soda people buy, to who they vote for during elections. Some people are less impressionable than others but the vast majority of the population can be swayed with these kind of things.
In order to sell people on Pathfinder Online, people need to be drawn in with the absolute best PFO has to offer. They need to see a brief list of the best and most interesting features in PFO, and then see the absolute best this game has to offer visually. Which right now is the goblin animations.
Right now PFO is for lack of a better term, an quite overweight girl with a face that only is pretty after you get used to it, and a really great personality once you get to know her. People are passing her by because all they see is her downsides at first, so they never bother to learn how awesome she is.
We need to make it so her strong features are the first ones anybody sees. We need to take a picture of her from the Myspace angle and photoshop it up a bit unfortunately. That's just the way the public is.
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Goblin Squad Member
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For me the biggest downside is that to 'buy in' at $35 sees you with nothing in your hand until 2016. Thanks but no thanks. $100 sees you in, but somewhere 18+ months away to 'enjoy' a Beta test, a process that is often free in MMO's for a good reason.
The timeframes are too far apart, the pledges too great an incremental jump, and the number of shinies too few for what it is - even the tech demo came with Thornkeep stuff.
I was all keen initially, however after getting into some of the other KS offers for games like Shadowrun and Project Eternity I just didn't feel this one had enough shinies and too long a wait.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I hope they come out with an update, to gather both PRPG fans and mmo fans as well.
The hardcore fan of this game already see's value in what you are offering (including me) and understand that we want most of the KS money to go directly to the project, but anyone from the outside is not seeing the value from helping with development, they can just wait until the game is released and purchase it then.
Some items they can offer without costing any 'real world money" may be:
1. All core races at start (may take a little more time, but really, c'mon)
2. Be clear on how many characters an account can have -- maybe have a different offering for $$ values to start. (its goood -- because then they can sell extra character slots into the game at launch in the 'store')...Obviously -- 1 character per account is not kool with one server -- but i think a 3 per regular account, 4 if you get in on the $35 kickstarter, 5 if you invest $100. That is at least offering value.
3. Detail what rougly will be in the consumables and alliance pack, as well as the guild starter pack.
4. Maybe a digital copy of the Pathfinder RPG core rulebook -- it would also help develop more players for Paizo.<obviously this costs money>
5. I know this is prolly one of the stretch goals -- but a 32 page sourcebook on Fort Inevitable and Fort Riverwatch. This is key to getting the RPG crowd. <this costs more>
6. Offer a small useful in game item to start (or a list where you can pick one (on a $35 bid), 2 (on a $75 bid) or 3 (on a $100 bid). These items could be masterwork weapon, masterwork backpack, or even a scroll or potion to start the game -- nothing unbalancing).
7. Finally... please give some added value to those that have already donated for the first KS and now for the second KS, so we don't feel unappreciated -- whether it is a special forum title (like Charter PFO Backer)...etc.
We, the hardcore supporters really want this KS to work Ryan, please give us a few more arrows in our quiver to do so.
Matt Lane
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Goblin Squad Member
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Personally, I don't think I have even seen this Kickstarter advertised anywhere. The only reason I know about it was because I get an e-mail, and I think I got that specifically because I had signed up to get updates on PFO after the first kickstarter.
I would go out any try to advertise, but I'm really bad at it and usually turn off a lot more people to an idea than I attract. As can be observed in my artifacts thread.
Also I've had friends flatly tell me no because its not free to play.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@BraxtheSage
You are asking for more than they can provide.
1. You can put a tag on each race, it's 60,000 dollars, that is how much past 1 million the first stretch goal is.
2&3 are not possible until the game is further developed.
4 probably won't happen, the core book is cheap enough as a digital download.
5. not a stretch goal, its a reward
6. Game needs to be more developed
7. GW told us so many times that the tech demo rewards would not be connected to the release game, all the rewards were acceptable for the donation levels.
They can't just throw up a bunch more, the greater majority of the funds need to go to the game, if you donate $100 you can't expect to get $100 of value, it is a donation, not a purchase.
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The key to this kickstarter success is having a short, quick and easy to read way to introduce people to the game premise, because right now you need 100 points of data and missing just a few points throws off your interpretation by a huge factor. I think there are a ton of people who would enjoy this game, but they don't understand how everything fits together. More or less, every game we have seen has been the same game plus or minus a few details, PFO is a huge change to what people are used to, and the misunderstanding shows.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Shaker this project failed and so far is doing better in dollar's per day than Pathfinder. Both have the same 1 million goal.
I was bummed that Shaker didn't make it, although the complaints were generally around lack of clarity in what the game was really about and how it all works, a similar issue here.
I still think the option of $35 or $100 is a bit odd, and there's just not enough stuff kicking about to make it a 'must have'.
Putting in what amounts to a slightly discounted pre-order on a yet-to-be-made game that you wont see for a couple of years seems a bit weak as a proposition. I'd probably rather just shell out the marginal difference when I know its ready and the reviews (and Beta reports) are in. Paying an additional $65 to be a Beta tester similarly seems a bit steep.
I think the Thornkeep book was a better deal for the tech demo, I was keen just for the Thornkeep stuff alone.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Having already put it on my facebook and told my friends, not sure what I can do now either.
I agree that what GW ought to try it cleaning and clearing it up a bit, then maybe try some advertisement. If we can just get out what it is and why it could interest them, I'm sure we'd see a rise in pledges.
Not sure the fact it's in a few years really matters, seems to me most of the video game kickstarters come out at least a year later, if not more.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Agree with shifty (#15) , it's difficult with mmorpgs to generate "buzz", especially for a kickstarter which is all about generating immediacy, for something without tons of visual evidence popping every 2 seconds, high backer levels and long-term delivery. Especially given the "fantasy themepark" crash and burn of so many titles that a) look the same b) play the same c) last/cost the same!
If a) is first impression: people think they are wising up to the trend above already I'd guess. And b) only confirms suspicions (eg tab-target: "again - that's it!") based from the animations in the demo. But the good thing about KS is it does tell the devs where people are in terms of their decision-making and how many people. So every positive pledge is good news even if the project does not reach it's target.
The demo is great in context to the design blog discussion but it can't do much by itself without either buy-in already as an avid reader of the design blogs, as a pathfinder fan or as someone who is interested in searching for niche sandbox mmorpgs, I think? The biggest shout-out for PfO will be when those first players have exclusive access and demonstrate a v well desgned game + a manageable, self-managing community = fun. Though, for me, still worried about tab-targetting as plenty of people likely are, as above.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@TheDarklord, thanks for saying that. I haven't watched too many Kickstarter projects, but I don't see a whole lot of difference in the trend line graph for this one and for other successful ones.
Not to mention Ryan is a real Marketing guy, and I kinda doubt he'd set up something he wasn't fairly confident would succeed. I find it really hard to believe any of this is coming as a surprise to him.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Panic and caution are different things. Do not confuse the intentions of this thread. If some of you think making .0033% of your INITIAL goal is good for a given day than great for you. Those of us that don't because we pay attention to amounts not "trends" just want to motivate the community in spreading the word and help make this a success. This is not a case of chicken little.
I've been thinking "Kickstarter" seemed like a suspect cencept from the moment I first heard about it. If a project can't get funded though conventional means there must be something wrong with it.
I'm all for this concept of a game, I love pathfinder and I've been playing all ediditions of D&D except 4th. Also I am an ex MMORPG player having played EQ2 hardcore for 5 years.
Still I feel that if this game should have the right to live there would be some investors other than the players to finance it.
I'm going to remain happily on the fence and play the game when and if released if it looks good.
PS. I would urge against giving kickstarter pledgers too many bonuses in the final game as this would dissuage other potentional customers (like me).
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Goblin Squad Member
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I've been thinking "Kickstarter" seemed like a suspect cencept from the moment I first heard about it. If a project can't get funded though conventional means there must be something wrong with it.
Investors Don't always want to take risks with their money, usually going for the safer route. The only thing wrong with Pathfinder online is it's taking a new direction, a new spin on things.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I've been thinking "Kickstarter" seemed like a suspect concept from the moment I first heard about it. If a project can't get funded though conventional means there must be something wrong with it.
Or there is something wrong with conventional funding. Please see Star Citizen, Shadowrun Returns, Project Eternity, Planetary Annihilation, Double Fine Adventure, and/or Wasteland 2. Publishers didn't want to back these games. They weren't WoW, Angry Birds, or Call of Duty. However gamers wanted these games and we put up the money for them because that's how bad we wanted them. We call this a "win/win".
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Goblin Squad Member
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Still I feel that if this game should have the right to live there would be some investors other than the players to finance it.
You do understand that there are investors already, and that they already have the funding necessary to complete the project?
We have secured the financing we need to put the game into production.
We want to build Pathfinder Online quicker and with more content than our current financing will allow. Rather than finding additional outside investors to put in additional money, we believe we can reach our funding goals right here, on Kickstarter.
Still I feel that if this game should have the right to live there would be some investors other than the players to finance it.You do understand that there are investors already, and that they already have the funding necessary to complete the project?
No I never understood this. Does this mean the game is 100% going to be relased?
Don't get me wrong. It's likely I'll play this game if released, but it seems very suspect to me the way this is being done.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I guess the question is - at what point do you panic? At the halfway mark when you're only a quarter of the way there? At the three quarters mark when you have a third of the goal?
Right now I think we're just a day or two of big returns away from being back "on track" and giving ourselves some breathing room. To me, kickstarters look like hydrological river gauges. Lots of low flow punctuated by occasional floods. If you've got a rainy year with lots of floods then you dont really care about your low flow. But if you only have one or two big floods then you want to take a hard look at low flow.
And we've had one big 'rain event' to start off the KS. Since then we've had both fewer people and fewer dollars each successive day. The question is: how low will that "low flow" be? (IMHO its already too low).
So, in summation. Pray for rain. Or start seeding the clouds :P Yes, this analogy really got away from he lol
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I think the first Kickstarter was so successful because of the PnP product rewards. The new one lacks any of that.
I would agree with you on that, Rafkin. :) I think product rewards or in-game rewards that flag early supporters would be ideal. The more support given through Kickstarter, the cooler the in-game rewards should be.
I am proud to support this project and would love to be able to tell my fellow Pathfinder gamers just that. :)
-Dinan
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Goblin Squad Member
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I guess the question is - at what point do you [uhm, not panic, definitely some other word]? At the halfway mark when you're only a quarter of the way there? At the three quarters mark when you have a third of the goal?
I'm not going to really be worried until the final day. At that point, I might start fretting that I might not actually have my first-month invitation locked in, if the project seems unlikely to achieve its goal.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Haha. fair enough. I was reading a sports blog immediately before this and I think some of the verbiage subconsciously seeped through.
This game will get done one way or another. People will be disappointed though if its the longer time table, though.
I like that analogy. Kickstarter is a big platform so it's coverage should be v beneficial for PfO. But I think the early release of PfO is very important. I'm sure there will be some good updates in the pipeline; it's just a tough time to capture people's attention and free cash around now, obviously.
And in mmorpgs, most people are only aware of ES:O, Archage, Darkfall, NWN's as upcoming fantasy mmorpgs (exl. sci-fi) worth giving a damn about (there's greed monger and citadel of sorcery and repopulation also, but much much less general awareness of those). Sui Generis (sic?) just passed it's target (150£k and what caught people's attention was the physics combat + stamina: You wack that monster or any mob wacks you - you fly and it hurts. It's instantly recognisable as fun) That's partly what PfO cannot demonstrate in combination with the excptional design blogs.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I guess the question is - at what point do you [uhm, not panic, definitely some other word]? At the halfway mark when you're only a quarter of the way there? At the three quarters mark when you have a third of the goal?I'm not going to really be worried until the final day. At that point, I might start fretting that I might not actually have my first-month invitation locked in, if the project seems unlikely to achieve its goal.
I'll bet you anything you won't have to worry about that. Say the KSer fails. They'll just have a donation section on their website like Shadowrun Online and Star Citizen with the exact same rewards and prices listed on the KSer. If not that, something similar. You'll get your first month dude.
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Goblin Squad Member
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From my perspective the initial Kickstarter made the game a reality. It will exist thanks to investors having ponied up the needed funds. But they weren't able to get enough funds to release at the same level and time-frame as GW originally wanted. So this new Kickstarter is there not to fund the game, but to speed up and improve the release quality.
In effect, the first Kickstarter was the "project goal" and this Kickstarter is all about "strecth goals."
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think the first Kickstarter was so successful because of the PnP product rewards. The new one lacks any of that.
Exactly my thoughts.
This current Kickstarter is just a looong timeframe pre-order for a speculative product with very little payoff for the backers.
Take Project Eternity, Elite, Shadowrun etc etc, tangible in game benefits for jumping on board. Even the Reaper Mini's gave out PDF's and other shinies. The Tech Demo came with Thornkeep - thats awesome right there...
This KS has all the romance and emotional buy in of walking down to my local EB games and pumping out $35 for a preorder due a few Christmases from now, only to then get no advantage over some other guy who has the benefit of seeing a finished game he knows is any good or not and pays a marginal price difference for. I risk being stuck with a lemon (or worse, vapourware), he pays peanuts different and buys with confidence.