Anytime you have unrealistic stuff going on, it's drastically more important to have everything else around it behave believably, to protect suspension of disbelief.
Spellcasters cast spells by definition, so if they're in the world at all then it's ok for them to break reality as long as their methods are internally consistant.
Folks more influenced by anime, comics, or video games may not have trouble with unrealistic noncasters, like fighters slicing through buildings and rogues stealthing without cover or concealment.
More influenced by history or literature, far more likely to know and care what human limits generally are.
Adding a fluff to the ability that the superhuman effects are due to enchantments or ambient magic or such may make it more palatable, but without giving it a specific exception to reality, any unrealistic act is immersion-breaking.
Well-acted and detailed characters can provide the reality touchstone, and again the more strained from reality anything else gets, the more reality I need on other fronts to keep interest.
Everybody draws a line somewhere on the cool-silly and believable-fantasy continuum. The further extreme in either direction, the more niche the product.
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There are plenty of things that martial characters do that would be impossible for "normal" humans. Let's start with a level 20 character free-falling 20,000 feet to the ground without dying. Or cutting down four orcs in a single sword swing.
Of course magical spells are more obvious "violations" of natural law. But that's by design.
If you want to play a game where martial and casting characters are more or less equal, there is one. It's called D&D 4e.
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There are plenty of things that martial characters do that would be impossible for "normal" humans. Let's start with a level 20 character free-falling 20,000 feet to the ground without dying. Or cutting down four orcs in a single sword swing.
Of course magical spells are more obvious "violations" of natural law. But that's by design.
If you want to play a game where martial and casting characters are more or less equal, there is one. It's called D&D 4e.
Amen! I hate playing in or running games like 4E. If I can't balance things on my own in the game I'm running, then I'm in the wrong hobby and probably shouldn't be sitting behind the screen.
Aside from 4E (must not engage in Edition Wars, must not engage in...) if you want a game wherein your martial classes have just as much reality-bending as your mages, look into Exalted, by White Wolf. All the Castes have their own brand of "impossible" capacities, from sword-swinging to archery to bureaucracy to riding, etc., ad. infin.
But the D&D lineage, including Pathfinder, has never been about breaking reality with mundane tools like weapons.
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Let's start with a level 20 character free-falling 20,000 feet to the ground without dying.
Oh, you mean sort of like a first-level wizard can?
It is, but not how with regards to things that are defined in the games.
Just looking at NPC stat arrays (average human) vs the usual PC stat array (super-human) it's clear that adventurers will be able to do a lot more than your average NPC character.
Impossibility is really only possible (...yeah) when something is internally inconsistent.
Basically, having a man swing a sword 6 times in the same span of seconds is acceptable in the game as it's a defined feature of this universe. A Wizard can make fire with his hands and that's hunky dory.
What someone CAN'T do is break those established rules. If your first level Wizard is casting Gate that's a whole 'nother kind of impossible.
So yes, impossibility is an important concept to keep in mind in this game, just not in the sense of how the game interacts with our reality.
Folks more influenced by anime, comics, or video games may not have trouble with unrealistic noncasters, like fighters slicing through buildings and rogues stealthing without cover or concealment.
More influenced by history or literature, far more likely to know and care what human limits generally are.
It has nothing to do with being used to "anime, comics, or video games". Those are mainly methods of telling stories, not the content in those stories, which vary a lot. Compare a Modesty Blaise comic and the mythological Hercules.
"More influenced by history or literature" makes it sound as if eastern animation, comics and games aren't largely based around historical themes.
It's also noteworthy that specifically anime rather than cartoons in general was pointed out despite "martial" people doing supernatural stuff in both. Do you have some study on the frequency of this, or is it just general prejudice against japanese art? Or in movies in general, though those aimed at adults and set inte semi-realistic settings seems to have a somewhat lower bar.
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People in real life survive amazing falls on occacion - a high-level character.
Roberta: Nope, feather fall only lasts 1 round/level max and you have to succeed on a DC21 concentration check to cast it so your chances are pretty slim.
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Someone who understands classics like the Epic of Gilgamesh will know that fictional heroic non-spellcasters never do anything beyond what an average Joe can do in real life. That's why in the Iliad, Cassandra was the most powerful character due to her levels in Oracle, while chumps like Achilles, Diomedes, Hector, and Odysseus were pretty much just mundane dudes wielding pointy sticks in a totally realistic manner.
The idea that everyone should be able to do cool things pretty much just comes from anime fans, who have been spoiled by the idea that Pokemon trainers should be exactly as powerful in physical combat as their Pokemon.
So, who wants to explain to the guy who plays a fighter that we'd really really like to let him do cool things but man the party already has a wizard and that wizard is so amazing he counts for the amazingness of like three people so the fighter doesn't get to do unrealistic cool things but man it's okay for that low low price you get to bask in the glory of how great the wizard is and hey where are you going come back
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Someone who understands classics like the Epic of Gilgamesh will know that fictional heroic non-spellcasters never do anything beyond what an average Joe can do in real life. That's why in the Iliad, Cassandra was the most powerful character due to her levels in Oracle, while chumps like Achilles, Diomedes, Hector, and Odysseus were pretty much just mundane dudes wielding pointy sticks in a totally realistic manner.
The idea that everyone should be able to do cool things pretty much just comes from anime fans, who have been spoiled by the idea that Pokemon trainers should be exactly as powerful in physical combat as their Pokemon.
So, who wants to explain to the guy who plays a fighter that we'd really really like to let him do cool things but man the party already has a wizard and that wizard is so amazing he counts for the amazingness of like three people so the fighter doesn't get to do unrealistic cool things but man it's okay for that low low price you get to bask in the glory of how great the wizard is and hey where are you going come back
The sarcasm is strong with this one.
If I were a lesser man I would have drowned from all of the sarcasm dripping off of this post.
In other news: Roberta wins all "Realism" arguments forever.
.Nope, feather fall only lasts 1 round/level max and you have to succeed on a DC21 concentration check to cast it so your chances are pretty slim.
Nope, I don't have to roll the Concentration check. Neither do my players when I GM. And neither does anyone else, unless they're playing PFS or their GM acknowledges that they prefer a) unthinkingly following by rote rules minutiae that have unintentionally evolved due to developer assumptions of common sense, to b) following the history, spirit and intent of the spell ;-)
Just sayin'...
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I demand all roleplaying games be exactly like comic books.
Comic books like Ameican Splendor.
People in real life survive amazing falls on occacion - a high-level character.
Or just chance. Some people survive amazing falls, but they don't do it reliably.
There's not usually anything else about them that suggests they're extremely high level.
Lol, that came out wrong from me. Don't know why the sentence ended there. It should have said:
People in real life survive amazing falls on occacion - a high-level character is just good or lucky enough to do it routinely.
I personally love the balance of possible and impossible. That is not to say that after a certain point, casters become OP monstrosities, because they do (I end up playing with a powergamer who loves using casters a lot). The thing is it should play into the personality type of the martial player a lot.
I love the feeling of accomplishment I get when my fighter wades through literal hellfire and death beams, puts up with gravity shifts and teleportation, and weathers gut twisting magic long enough to ensure that if the wizard survives, he'll be drinking his meals through a straw from now on.
It is the GM's responsibility to balance the impossible magic and mundane combatants.
.Nope, feather fall only lasts 1 round/level max and you have to succeed on a DC21 concentration check to cast it so your chances are pretty slim.Nope, I don't have to roll the Concentration check. Neither do my players when I GM. And neither does anyone else, unless they're playing PFS or their GM acknowledges that they prefer a) unthinkingly following by rote rules minutiae that have unintentionally evolved due to developer assumptions of common sense, to b) following the history, spirit and intent of the spell ;-)
Just sayin'...
Yeah, "wizards are so overpowered because I house rule them to be" is kind of a weak argument though.
(not saying wizards aren't awesome and that there's no martial-caster disparity, just that when you have to house rule your example to work, you might want to change the parameters of that example).
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I asked my history professor what the most important historical battles between elves and demiliches were so that I could use them to make my game more realistic and historically accurate, but she wouldn't give me a straight answer. Then I asked my literature professor what accounts of dwarves slaying evil-aligned outsiders had the most verisimilitude so that I could study them, but for some reason he seemed more interested in discussing To the Lighthouse. Now how am I supposed to find good influences to really understand the proper human limits of orcs who can sprout wings by getting really angry and wield swords as large as their own bodies so that I can be better at pretending I am one?
To make matters worse, I think one of the other players in my group played "The Legend of Zelda" as a kid, and I'm worried coming from a video game background will poison his roleplaying and make him unable to roleplay realistic encounters with svirfneblin monks. Should I ban him from my group to be on the safe side?
It's quite distressing. I don't want my elfgames to be ruined by impure influences like other fantasy media. I think I may already be infected. I read a comic book once, and Batman went way beyond realistic human limits, which in theory is really bad because he needs to be totally realistic in order to balance out the suspension of disbelief Superman's abilities require, but... I didn't mind. For some reason, it didn't break my immersion. Does that mean... is there something wrong with me?
Oh gods. It's obvious. I'm infected. I'm one of them now. I can't play RPG's anymore. It's too dangerous I'd probably turn them into Sailor Moon fanfiction if I did. Already I can feel the taint spreading through my mind, as impure thoughts like "Why should only one player get to do things in a fantasy game that they couldn't do in real life?" bubble to the surface against my will. There is no escape. I can no longer function in society. I have strayed from the path of goodness, of classical influences like Beowulf where nobody did anything unrealistic. My soul is falling into a dark void, and there is nothing I can do to save myself from this sickness.
The horror. The horror.
Ms. Yang... Pathfinder is, simply, not designed to allow martials to have nice things. If you are unwilling to accept that postulate in a game, may I once more direct you to a game like Exalted?
Ms. Yang... Pathfinder is, simply, not designed to allow martials to have nice things. If you are unwilling to accept that postulate in a game, may I once more direct you to a game like Exalted?
He's got a point.
I love the martial classes but casters are considerably more powerful, that's just the mechanics of it.
Also, not all anime is best represented by Exalted. Probably wouldn't work great with PF either, which is too action centric for stories like that one.
And then there's the Record of Lodoss War that was basically an actual D&D campaign. Originally it was published as a replay, transcripts from actual roleplaying sessions, edited and rewritten a little to be distributed as a serial. People knew they were replays as well. Deedlit for example was actually someone's character.
.Nope, feather fall only lasts 1 round/level max and you have to succeed on a DC21 concentration check to cast it so your chances are pretty slim.Nope, I don't have to roll the Concentration check. Neither do my players when I GM. And neither does anyone else, unless they're playing PFS or their GM acknowledges that they prefer a) unthinkingly following by rote rules minutiae that have unintentionally evolved due to developer assumptions of common sense, to b) following the history, spirit and intent of the spell ;-)
Just sayin'...
Yeah, "wizards are so overpowered because I house rule them to be" is kind of a weak argument though.
(not saying wizards aren't awesome and that there's no martial-caster disparity, just that when you have to house rule your example to work, you might want to change the parameters of that example).
Ok. Not sure what argument you're referring to, or what example I'm making. Like I said, just sayin'. In this case, commenting solely on the Concentration check that some think you have to make when casting feather fall.
I think you're ascribing some context or agenda to my wee comment that doesn't exist :)
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I think this isn't as confounding as people like to make it. It's never been a divide between a fantasy setting and the real world--it's been about wanting a fantasy game experience that comes closer to emulating fantasy fiction. Dragons and gods and spells and all that are fine--it's the wonky game mechanics that dissatisfy some folks, things that don't serve story by being more legendary or mystical, but are just weird rules causing frustrating or nonsensical results you then have to juryrig into the story to try and make sense out of it.
The answer is easy really. If you find a mechanic that isn't doing it's job to make your stories better--change it. Share it with like-minded folks and enjoy it. Heck I never run a RAW game if I don't have to. Seriously rules are there to serve your story, not the other way around. You can be a d20 player and still have rich, dynamic narrative games--it's not like you have to play the same way everyone else does or find a different game. D20 is broad enough and good enough a system to support multiple styles of play.
I think this isn't as confounding as people like to make it. It's never been a divide between a fantasy setting and the real world--it's been about wanting a fantasy game experience that comes closer to emulating fantasy fiction. Dragons and gods and spells and all that are fine--it's the wonky game mechanics that dissatisfy some folks, things that don't serve story by being more legendary or mystical, but are just weird rules causing frustrating or nonsensical results you then have to juryrig into the story to try and make sense out of it.
The answer is easy really. If you find a mechanic that isn't doing it's job to make your stories better--change it. Share it with like-minded folks and enjoy it. Heck I never run a RAW game if I don't have to. Seriously rules are there to serve your story, not the other way around. You can be a d20 player and still have rich, dynamic narrative games--it's not like you have to play way everyone else does or find a different game. D20 is broad enough and good enough a system to support multiple styles of play.
Post of the day!
I agree with the statement that there needs to be a mundane standard in a fantasy setting or else the incredible becomes normal. But I don't think it's martial PCs that should have to stand for it. That's what ordinary folk are for. Regular jackoffs, like commoners, city guards, the friendly shopkeeper at the bakery.
But a high level fighter should get to be the same type of demigod that the wizard is. He may not be able to shoot fire from his nose but dual-wielding a two-bladed sword and a spiked chain should be achievable for them.
Also, not all anime is best represented by Exalted. Probably wouldn't work great with PF either, which is too action centric for stories like that one.
And then there's the Record of Lodoss War that was basically an actual D&D campaign. Originally it was published as a replay, transcripts from actual roleplaying sessions, edited and rewritten a little to be distributed as a serial. People knew they were replays as well. Deedlit for example was actually someone's character.
Uh, not suggesting anything to do with anime at all. Pointing out that the style of "doing impossible things as a martial" is well-supported by the Exalted game.
EDIT: If that wasn't directed to me, nevermind. But unclear...
There are plenty of things that martial characters do that would be impossible for "normal" humans. Let's start with a level 20 character free-falling 20,000 feet to the ground without dying. Or cutting down four orcs in a single sword swing.
Of course magical spells are more obvious "violations" of natural law. But that's by design.
If you want to play a game where martial and casting characters are more or less equal, there is one. It's called D&D 4e.
With a wide cut or stab and drag from a polearm, you can cut four close people though. Consider the length, people rushing in and what you are working with. If they die or go down of course depends on skill, how tough they are and the armour to deflect the quick cut. The female nobles from samurai families liked the naginata as it could be used to engage multiple foes because of the reach, inflict good wounds and keep attackers at bay.
If a sword is as big as a polearm or close, why not hit four? Seems plausible to me.
OTOH, Exalted doesn't handle the starting as a novice and growing to heroic stature thing well. You start out doing impossible things from what I can tell.
You can't have everything.
Ms. Yang... Pathfinder is, simply, not designed to allow martials to have nice things. If you are unwilling to accept that postulate in a game, may I once more direct you to a game like Exalted?
Or, if your GM is willing to allow/convert some 3.5 material, perhaps look into the Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords. I frankly don't find anything in there that breaks the game worse than a well-made, well-played Wizard does.
For PF-only games, there's The Genius Guide to Horrifically-Overpowered Feats. Despite being produced as an April Fools product and despite its name, I really didn't find most of the martial feats - particularly the Meta-Attack Feats - all that broken or overpowered. Obviously you'll want to not allow some of the feats in there (such as the two Paragon feats, Extra Lives, Gestalt, etc.) and I'd recommend not allowing the casting feats, but if your GM approves the use of the various melee-boosting feats in there, I'd say go for it, again nothing available to the Fighter-types in there that will break the game any worse than a Wizard.
Re: Exalted recommendations: I frankly don't have the books for another system, am not interested in learning another system, and would rather alter the system I have to make it work by importing older-edition books that I do own or coming up with something myself from scratch. Thankfully I'm saved that effort by having most of the 3.5 content at hand.
If you want to play a game where martial and casting characters are more or less equal, there is one. It's called D&D 4e.
A game I can't recommend highly enough, btw!
OTOH, Exalted doesn't handle the starting as a novice and growing to heroic stature thing well. You start out doing impossible things from what I can tell.
I'm not an expert on Exalted, but the GM can decide to start the players off as heroic mortals rather than exalts. In fact that's just what happened in the one game I played. Presumably, the GM can also decide to make the players 'rough it' even more as average Joes before graduating them to heroic mortals and then exalts.
I've no idea how well it would actually play out though.
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I guess my big problem is with the argument: like the game the way it is or get out. Yeah Exalted and 4E do things differently, but it feels like folks are trying to force people who like a little different playstyle out of the community. It's not that hard to get 3.5 to do what you want. Want to bring Wizard power bloat into line and make fighters matter more? Give creatures a DR/physical, beef up save boosting feats to +5s, give martial classes an even faster BA progression, a bonus to rolled HP on top of Con and a bonus to weapon damage.
Unfortunately the kind of demigod feeling people seem to want doesn't much happen in 3.5. You tend to just fight new challenge appropriate monsters that have just enough hitpoints and abilities to offset any gain the PC's get, so everything just drops back and resets to how it was. That said it's an easy fix--just run 5th level characters through 2nd level games and 20th level characters through 10th level ones. Boom! Instant epicness.
Or even easier, give the PCs you want to some extra power boosts like the ones above so they slowly grow beyond the stalemate power curve most adventures assume.
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Beowulf in 3.5: "So I roar my name and rip off this Grendel thing's arm"
Beowulf's DM: "You can't call shots. Your unarmed attack provokes *clatter* take 18. Okay roll to hit...do 1d3 nonlethal."
Later that evening, in the fen with Grendel's mother...
Beowulf: I dive into the water to fight her.
DM: Okay it's nightime and the murky water drops illumination by a step--so you're blind. Grendel's mother has water breathing and blindsense. Rolling her sneak attack * clatter *. Take 50. Roll to avoid drowning. You saved? Good. What's your Con? That's how many rounds until you drown. Your turn to hit, roll 50% miss chance. Nope? You swish. *clatter* Take another 62.
I guess my big problem is with the argument: like the game the way it is or get out. Yeah Exalted and 4E do things differently, but it feels like folks are trying to force people who like a little different playstyle out of the community. It's not that hard to get 3.5 to do what you want. Want to bring Wizard power bloat into line and make fighters matter more? Give creatures a DR/physical, beef up save boosting feats to +5s, give martial classes an even faster BA progression, a bonus to rolled HP on top of Con and a bonus to weapon damage.
I agree that the "Don't like the game? Play another." attitude can be a big copout. It's like when someone says "Don't like our laws? Live somewhere else." in a political discussion -- it's an avoidance tactic. And as you probably remember, I'm all about house rules!
That said, if there's another game that clearly answers someone's complaints about a game they're already playing, suggesting they investigate another game is a perfectly reasonable idea. And for players, finding a group that plays a differenet game may be their only viable solution, as players rarely have the luxury of influencing house rules. (Particularly system-wide game changers.)
Unfortunately the kind of demigod feeling people seem to want doesn't much happen in 3.5. You tend to just fight new challenge appropriate monsters that have just enough hitpoints and abilities to offset any gain the PC's get, so everything just drops back and resets to how it was. That said it's an easy fix--just run 5th level characters through 2nd level games and 20th level characters through 10th level ones. Boom! Instant epicness.
Indeed, D&D has always been more or less premised on a 'treadmill' of monster-bashing, as some would call it. I find it curious that your solution would be to simply set the PCs up against lower-CR opponents, though, as I imagine that would get boring fast. Have you had experience in this area?
I definitely think there's a place for PCs mowing through lower-challenge opponents and getting to feel awesome. The Minion mechanic from 4e is one of the better things out of the system and something I've stolen for my 3.5/PF games, as it gives that feeling as well as takes out a lot of the bookkeeping required for that kind of encounter.
I don't think it would be boring if it isn't done too frequently. Give the players their on-level challenges, of course, but just as it's encouraged to occasionally throw them something well above their power curve (so they either struggle to beat it or learn the important lesson of retreat), it's also okay to throw them against something they can wipe the floor with and feel awesome from time to time. IMO, anyway.
Indeed, D&D has always been more or less premised on a 'treadmill' of monster-bashing, as some would call it. I find it curious that your solution would be to simply set the PCs up against lower-CR opponents, though, as I imagine that would get boring fast. Have you had experience in this area?
Cool to see you again, by the way. It's been a while and I haven't seen any familiar faces on here since my return.
I guess as regards my suggestion, I'm seeing a lot of desire here for a sense of legendary characters that are rising above the world and becoming truly powerful. How do you reflect that in a treadmill-oriented game? It seemed like powering down the rest of the world was one way to get there. You don't watch 300 to see a level appropriate fight. You watch to see huge legendary guys muscle their way through what should be terrifying opponents and more or less rock them all. Beowulf wasn't challenged by Grendel, he took him out like the generic guy in the black speedo in a pro wrestling match. So if folks want a legendary feel to their gaming, that seems to be a way to do it.
That said, I think different people want different things from their game and things are only fun unless they're not.
Have I tried this approach out? No, but then I want different things from my gaming experience. For me, I'm much more about trying to pin things down and get as much drama and verisimilitude from my gaming as possible. For me, the biggest win is when the stories I run feel like a good fantasy novel--so I have different things I do. I run my games using the Grimcleaver System and the Level to Age Rubrick (both of which are on here still). My games don't have "encounters" at all, per se, just characters and NPCs of different levels and capacities all following their own agendas. I tend to tell the stories of the characters in my groups rather than run any kind of "adventure" for them. For us and ours, that works pretty good. Well it did anyway.
As it turns out, I've recently moved to Washington and have been having to start my game group from scratch. I game at the local gamestore doing Pathfinder Society games. It's been interesting going from pure narrative gaming to pretty much all mapboard wargaming. Uses different muscles.
That might address the power disparity, but doesn't really help with the "why is it wrong for legendary heroes to achieve things that are beyond the possible with their martial might" question. If you want martials to have cool things to do, just letting them hit things harder and take more damage doesn't accomplish it.
I don't think it is wrong. That said "things beyond the possible with martial might" is a bit vague. I think the first step to getting the rules to work the way you want is figuring out what you want to do that the current rules don't allow for and then coming up with an elegant mechanic to make it happen.
I think people should be able to use the game to tell whatever kind of story they want.
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Also, not all anime is best represented by Exalted. Probably wouldn't work great with PF either, which is too action centric for stories like that one.
And then there's the Record of Lodoss War that was basically an actual D&D campaign. Originally it was published as a replay, transcripts from actual roleplaying sessions, edited and rewritten a little to be distributed as a serial. People knew they were replays as well. Deedlit for example was actually someone's character.
Uh, not suggesting anything to do with anime at all. Pointing out that the style of "doing impossible things as a martial" is well-supported by the Exalted game.
EDIT: If that wasn't directed to me, nevermind. But unclear...
Nope, more directed at the general concept that anime is only in the style of DragonballZ. Anime is a medium, not a genre.
Beowulf wasn't challenged by Grendel, he took him out like the generic guy in the black speedo in a pro wrestling match. So if folks want a legendary feel to their gaming, that seems to be a way to do it.
You may notice that Grendel was not the only creature Beowulf fought, and the subsequent creatures were much more difficult for him to take out (the last one roasting him alive in his own armor).
Sure and the 300 spartans all got killed in a hail of arrows--but that's because often the boss battles at the end of legends have a CR that goes up to unwinnable so that the heroes can die deaths of glorious self-sacrifice.
Not sure that most players are as interested in enacting this particular trope though...
Well even Grendel's mother was a much tougher fight since she had DR/magic and some nasty grapples.
I guess my big problem is with the argument: like the game the way it is or get out. Yeah Exalted and 4E do things differently, but it feels like folks are trying to force people who like a little different playstyle out of the community.
I suppose the subtext of my Exalted suggestion was very much that... in that the difference between caster classes and martial classes is the way the game is.
But I never implied anybody had to like that that's how it is, nor was my suggestion for a system switch intended as a "like it or get out" statement. Simply that this other game does exactly what you want Pathfinder (which isn't written to do what you want) to do.
Beowulf in 3.5: "So I roar my name and rip off this Grendel thing's arm"
Beowulf's DM: "You can't call shots. Your unarmed attack provokes *clatter* take 18. Okay roll to hit...do 1d3 nonlethal."
Later that evening, in the fen with Grendel's mother...
Beowulf: I dive into the water to fight her.
DM: Okay it's nightime and the murky water drops illumination by a step--so you're blind. Grendel's mother has water breathing and blindsense. Rolling her sneak attack * clatter *. Take 50. Roll to avoid drowning. You saved? Good. What's your Con? That's how many rounds until you drown. Your turn to hit, roll 50% miss chance. Nope? You swish. *clatter* Take another 62.
Nice demonstration of what dnd can and can't do, and how it isn't the same as the Beowulf story.
I think on that Alitan we will have to disagree. It's not that it isn't written to do that, it's that it isn't written to do that yet. Or anymore if you're moving up from 3.5 and losing access to the expansion books that allowed that kind of thing, as I mentioned above.
All it needs to do that is something in that vein, which is what these people are looking for, that doesn't exist yet. Someone either needs to publish it, or pull it out of 3.5, or homebrew it, simple as that. The system itself doesn't disallow it; it's simply not an option people are given or aware of at the moment. No reason that can't change.
Amen, bro!
Sure and the 300 spartans all got killed in a hail of arrows--but that's because often the boss battles at the end of legends have a CR that goes up to unwinnable so that the heroes can die deaths of glorious self-sacrifice.
Not sure that most players are as interested in enacting this particular trope though...
Yeah, I had a space samurai game idea that was going to follow the story of the 47 ronin. 1 guy was very interested, and perhaps a bit aroused, the others looked terrified. "Suicide at the end?" "Give up everything for our dead lord?"