(JJ stuff)
JJ: (Produce Flame) "should therefore function similarly to other touch spells like chill touch."
JJ: "Chill touch is a weird spell. The touch attacks it grants do not function as "held charges."
So if Produce Flame works like Chill Touch, and you can't hold the charge of Chill Touch, then you also can't hold the charge of Produce Flame, which means you can't use the rules for held charges which include delivering them with natural attacks and unarmed strikes.
Alternately, James may not have taken all that into consideration when he made his post, especially with Jason's post saying chill touch works with Spellstrike, resulting in extremely powerful spell stacking. There's a FAQ post here if anyone is interested.
This is sort of getting off-topic now, so if anyone wants to continue discussing produce flame and claws, the rules forum beckons.
Chill touch on a claw would let you claw for claw damage and the chill touch (vs the opponents regular ac)Not unless you have the Spellstrike ability.
Not even then. Spellstrike specifically only works with spells with a range of "touch." So even if someone randomly decides any spell involving touching is a touch spell, that still doesn't qualify for Spellstrike.
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You don't know my friends. Frankly, they deserve everything they get...A level 10 barbarian that can't laugh off a Black Tentacle or 8 really isn't worth bothering about.Which is irrelevant to the point that friends don't cast Black Tentacles on friends, unless that IS the minimum force required to stop them.
Oh, those kind of friends. We just call them flunkies.
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I'm with nosig, how good of friends are these random pathfinders that are put together :D
now some of our local characters I think Arcanis is pretty good friends with as we have done many adventures together.
HOWEVER I believe ANY Pathfinder SHOULD BE/IS violently opposed to attacking another of the society, so I would still give another will save :D
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As someone who uses Charm spells (with a +14) to my charisma check. I'd be upset if a GM decided that after failing the saving throw (with +4 bonus. Even if I get the spell off at a distance, withou combat going on yet) that the creature effected (Serpentine bloodline, my charms work on a whole buncha things) has decided to not do as I "pushed" it to do.
If they fail, and they fail to my opposed charisma check, and I ask them to fireball / burn down / attack something, I expect them to do exactly what I have asked, as I've already taken my penalities , as well as invested into my charisma for this very thing to occur.
Sorry for the misdirect of subject on hand.
PS. SUCK IT PRO EBIL
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Good rule of thumb:
If you're using charm X, and you can think of a more direct version of the order you're giving that you wouldn't get away with unless you were using suggestion, and an even stronger/more direct version that would require dominate X, then you're golden.
If instead you'd be giving the same order for dominate as you are for charm and the only functional difference is the DC and the duration, you're doing it wrong.
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Another rule of thumb (or perhaps just a rephrasing of the above) would be: if a heightened charm X and a normal dominate X are getting you the same results, you don't understand how charm X works.
I find these guidelines make the fair adjudication of charm effects much easier. :)
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I think there might be confusion in discussions like these, as it seems that perhaps some people refer to a "charmed creature" as meaning "creature affected by a spell of the "enchantment (charm)" school, while other people say "charmed creature" and mean "creature affected by charm person or charm monster".
I suspect some people carry this conflation with them into their readings of the rules about "charm spells" and whatnot.
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It is the GM's responsibility to give the players some use out of their expended resources. For the example here, using charm person, it is the GM's responsibility to make it useful (except in extreme circumstances). It is the GM's responsibility to make other similar abilities, such as divinations, worth using. If I player is expending a 1st level spell, they should get a 1st level spell's worth out of it. If they're dropping a 4th level spell (like divination), that's not an open door to screw over the players. The same goes for charm (fwiw, I believe charm monster is exactly ZERO percent more powerful than charm person in regards to what you can do with the spell except that you can target non-humanoids).
It is the Player's responsibility to not expect the world bow before you because you cast a spell. You should never EXPECT your use of a single spell to win the fight any more than the barbarian should expect to end it with the single swing of their ax. Can it happen? Yes. Should you expect it because you specialized your character so much? No.
Dominate > Suggestion > Charm > Command
It is ridiculous to EXPECT charmed wizard to blow up their own allies because you convinced them via a charisma check. Would you expect the same via the diplomacy skill?
Is it possible the wizard may blow up his own allies because he secretly hates them and sees that the PCs are the stronger choice for survival (and that sorcerer over there is pretty convincing)? Yep.
Advice for GMs: The players are supposed to win. The players want their moment to shine. If a player shines using charm spells, let them shine, but within reason, as in 1/Xth of the time where X is the number of people at the table. Be creative with their requests, but keep in mind the expectations of the player. They want their abilities to count for something.
Advice for Players: Come up with creative, but not overly powerful arguments when using charm or suggestion spells. GMs love it when players come up with funny things to do with charmed monsters. GMs hate it when you expect their minions to unload on the other minions. It's still possible to "win the day" without commanding the fireball out of the wizard. Asking a charmed NPC to "incapacitate" their allies in order to end the fight is infinitely superior to demanding a charisma check and expecting them to rain down death upon the people they were also friendly with.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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It is ridiculous to EXPECT charmed wizard to blow up their own allies because you convinced them via a charisma check. Would you expect the same via the diplomacy skill?
So much this. (Assuming by "charmed" you mean "affected by charm X", not "affected by any charm-school effect".)
Charm person is basically instantaneous diplomacy. A few minutes of interaction and enough high Diplo checks will get a creature friendly with you. Charm person does exactly that, only you trade a spell slot for a fast-forward button and the ability to make it save-based instead of skill-based.
After either successful Diplomacy or successful charm person-ing, the target is likely friendly to both sides (PCs and NPCs). Whatever you think you should be able to convince them to do to one side, expect someone else to be able to convince them to do to the other side. After all, they feel equally about both sides at this point.
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Beyond that, it often comes in scenarios where you need to convince an NPC to do something outside of combat and you have A) make them friendly or helpful and/or B) make an opposed charisma or diplomacy check. The spell is a 6 second (3.1 second?) version of a skill. That said, it should still be useful. Do it out of combat and convince the tower captain to let us pass safely? Do it in combat and have him order his soldiers to stop fighting so we can talk. DON'T expect him to cut the heads off of his men.
Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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Beyond that, it often comes in scenarios where you need to convince an NPC to do something outside of combat and you have A) make them friendly or helpful and/or B) make an opposed charisma or diplomacy check. The spell is a 6 second (3.1 second?) version of a skill. That said, it should still be useful. Do it out of combat and convince the tower captain to let us pass safely? Do it in combat and have him order his soldiers to stop fighting so we can talk. DON'T expect him to cut the heads off of his men.
That sounds entirely too reasonable to be broken, Kyle. Please come back later with a better expectation.
All kidding aside, if only we didn't have dueling opinions from developers on FAQs and threads about mind control...
So something cool and altogether unexpected happened this last session. Turns out our GM hasn't been feeling so hot and so he handed me the chair next week. I'm prepping Murder's Mark. Picked that one specifically because it's supposed to be more of a roleplay/mystery style module. Should be interesting. Wish me luck!
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So something cool and altogether unexpected happened this last session. Turns out our GM hasn't been feeling so hot and so he handed me the chair next week. I'm prepping Murder's Mark. Picked that one specifically because it's supposed to be more of a roleplay/mystery style module. Should be interesting. Wish me luck!
Good luck!
Remember that, as a regular module, it is probably going to take at least two sessions to complete....
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It is the Player's responsibility to not expect the world bow before you because you cast a spell. You should never EXPECT your use of a single spell to win the fight any more than the barbarian should expect to end it with the single swing of their ax.
Wait, what? This kind of goes against the entire wizard/druid/cleric class, since most of their spells are "Win the fight". It even starts at level 1, with colour spray, sleep, and grease. The difference between you and the barbarian is that you control the universe and the barbarian controls his axe.
It is ridiculous to EXPECT charmed wizard to blow up their own allies because you convinced them via a charisma check. Would you expect the same via the diplomacy skill?
Well in 3.5 there was a build called the Diplomancer, where you had plus 44 diplomacy by level 3, so yeah actually you could.
Anyway diplomacy is talking, charm is magic
Now now, Diplomancer was largely because the rules for diplomacy were crazy unreasonable, much of which has been fixed in PF. It takes a minute or a HUGE combat penalty.
Wizards do win fights, but that barbarians axe has unlimited swings. the barbarian will win the same fight 20 times. the wizard will win a fight the barbarian can't 3 times. As levels increase this becomes more and more in the wizards favor, PFS increases that simply because 4-5 hour sessions have an encounter limit.
Charm is powerful, but it's not mind control. It's a huge attitude adjustment.
