So I'm pretty new to Pathfinder Society play. Just started up at the game store after moving to town. We played Master of the Fallen Fortress.
Then we played an encounters adventure called Darkest Vengeance.
Are all the adventures this brutal? Yeesh!
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In the early seasons, there were actually a lot of complaints that Society play was too easy. But it very much depends on the scenario. In those early seasons, some adventures still managed to get reputations for being extra deadly.
In the more recent seasons, things have intentionally gotten tougher. But if you play smart, and work together as a group, every adventure should be survivable, barring bad luck on the dice or a really poor combination of characters at the table.
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I have found in PFS that building a bit more of a general character, with good knowledge skills, and well built meaningful combat abilities works well.
Over-focusing on one thing for instance, will not do so well and not be very enjoyable.
This has been my experience as well. Building this way allows you to contribute to any type of scenario rather than rocking some and being a proverbial bump on a log in others. (YMMV.)
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I'd like to point out that Master of the Fallen Fortress wasn't written for PFS play specifically, it just happens to be sanctioned for PFS credit. So it can't really be taken as representative of PFS.
I'm not familiar with Darkest Vengeance, though I'm a little curious about this whole "best spell could disperse the Deeper Darkness for 1 round" thing. I can't think of anything that does exactly that, and darkness rules are some of the more frequently misapplied mechanics in the game, so...
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By the way, this post might be of help, since apparently you're now looking at starting fresh characters.
I come from a much more narrative school of gaming so this has been a challenge of trying to design "tactical builds" rather than making more colorful baseline characters (there seems to be a fair bit of pressure to optimize and metagame so you don't become a liability to the party--which is really new to me.)
So far we've had pretty balanced parties though, usually a variant paladin, fighter, healing cleric, and my evoker--who I was pretty proud of, a studded leather wearing elf with a bound crossbow he could shoot force missiles out of! Good at fighting from the middle of a group (with the -8 that cover and firing into melee impose) with lots of auto-hit or ranged touch spells and True Strike for when he needed to actually shoot. He had 8 force missiles before he even had to use his own spells.
Now? I'm not sure. We'll have to see what everyone brings.
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I come from a much more narrative school of gaming so this has been a challenge of trying to design "tactical builds" rather than making more colorful baseline characters (there seems to be a fair bit of pressure to optimize and metagame so you don't become a liability to the party--which is really new to me.)
To be clear, metagaming is still bad in PFS. If I catch it at my table, things won't go well.
As for optimization, a certain level is required, but without really knowing where you started from it's hard to comment. Personally, I advise people NOT to let any of their stats be higher than 18 at creation. I also highly recommend versatility over hyperspecialization (to a certain degree). The only TPK I've ever GM'd was a party with two casters who had 20s in their casting stats at first level, and they were almost saved by the much more reasonably built paladin.
So far we've had pretty balance parties though, usually a variant paladin, fighter, healing cleric, and my evoker--who I was pretty proud of, a studded leather wearing elf with a bound crossbow he could shoot force missiles out of! Good at fighting from the middle of a group (with the -8 that cover and firing into melee impose) with lots of auto-hit or ranged touch spells and True Strike for when he needed to actually shoot. He had 8 force missiles before he even had to use his own spells.
Now? I'm not sure. We'll have to see what everyone brings.
Hard to say much without more details. I will say, however, that evokers don't do much at low levels. It's true of most casters to some degree, but especially evokers. A guy who can deal about 3-5 damage a few times per day isn't exactly a killing machine - gotta get to the higher levels before you start raining destruction down upon your enemies. So you picked an inherently difficult path with that PC.
Or at least, so it sounds. :)
Hard to say much without more details. I will say, however, that evokers don't do much at low levels. It's true of most casters to some degree, but especially evokers. A guy who can deal about 3-5 damage a few times per day isn't exactly a killing machine - gotta get to the higher levels before you start raining destruction down upon your enemies. So you picked an inherently difficult path with that PC.Or at least, so it sounds. :)
Well the link to him is in my post above, but being an evoker with a +5 Int he had 8 1d4+1 force missiles a day, 3 True Strikes, a Magic Missile with the free evoker slot, free 1d3 Rays of Frost whenever he needed them, a 16 AC and 14ish hit points at 2nd level...plus he had a light crossbow and a +4 to use it. Oh and he gets a free spell to use from his bound crossbow--anything out of his spellbook. I thought he was pretty cool. Certainly the most oped guy I'd made to date. Plus his story and concept were fun.
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Well the link to him is in my post above, but being an evoker with a +5 Int he had 8 1d4+1 force missiles a day, 3 True Strikes, a Magic Missile with the free evoker slot, free 1d3 Rays of Frost whenever he needed them, a 16 AC and 14ish hit points at 2nd level...plus he had a light crossbow and a +4 to use it. I thought he was pretty cool. Certainly the most oped guy I'd made to date. Plus his story and concept were fun.
A little of this goes a long way, but: I've heard tell that Fendathrel had a twin... ;-)
A little of this goes a long way, but: I've heard tell that Fendathrel had a twin... ;-)
Heh. Yeah...well next up I'm gonna' try out a touch-attack grappling, deathseeking Pharasman cleric.
But hey who knows, someday the world may know the deeds of Gendathrel...
...or his brothers Hendathrel, Iendathrel and Jendathrel.
I find that some writers feel the need to challenge the top 5% of power gamers.
you know, those players that create combo's which grant them stupid high AC, allow them to deliver crazy burst damage, or the dreaded 5 summoners and one cleric table I had had the horror of witnessing first had ::shutters::
now to be fair.. I admit I'm a power gamer.. I have a few characters stated out to 15th level and each is crack in it's own way... just putting that out there.
Darkest Vengeance should be retired. Especially for tier 1-2.
Well Pathfinder Society isn't exactly the same as a regular game. In a normal game if anyone minmaxed their stat spread the way you do in Society play I'd be the first one clawing out my hair. That said you just can't play the baseline 12s and 13s guy with story based trait and feat picks without causing your party to hate you. You have to pull your weight.
I guess my revised litmus test would be: do whatever gimmicks your character is based on use the rules or take unfair advantage of the rules. I personally also feel the need to invest my characters with a strong storyline to explain their wonko stats and weekly modular misadventures. But that's just me.
Yeah...well next up I'm gonna' try out a touch-attack grappling, deathseeking Pharasman cleric.
Deathseeking is right. 7 Con on a front-line cleric?
What I don't understand is why people feel that you must dump two stats and have a 20 in another to be a successful PFS player.
I've found that PFS is tough, in a "rewarding" rather than a "I can never win!!" sort of way.
Scenarios are pretty balanced: some are really combat heavy, some are really skill heavy.
I've found that a group with pregens and good communication does way better than everybody using awesome characters and going "I've got this"; PFS seems to reward working together.
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I've found that PFS is tough, in a "rewarding" rather than a "I can never win!!" sort of way.
Robert has hit it on the head here. But I would like to make the point here that Tabletop RPG's like Pathfinder, are not really supposed to be easy. I didn't get into the game cause it was easy, cause if I did, I would go play Call of Duty or some other video game, where I get a do-over.
In Pathfinder, I don't get a do-over. My decisions and actions have consequences. If I am over-powered, I am only good with one thing, and everything else suffers. If I am not strong enough, then I am the one that always gets stuck in the fireball and taking full damage. Your choices, tactics and builds, determine your fate before the dice are rolled. This makes them all the more important. I think this is why I love RPG's of all the games I play, because my character's fate is only determined by two things, my choices and dice. And that makes survival that much more exciting and makes for a better story to tell at your next table.
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Yeah...well next up I'm gonna' try out a touch-attack grappling, deathseeking Pharasman cleric.Deathseeking is right. 7 Con on a front-line cleric?
What I don't understand is why people feel that you must dump two stats and have a 20 in another to be a successful PFS player.
I agree. I would rather have 3- 14's before a 16 or up any day. And yes, one of those 14's is always in CON.
I will say this as consolation prize: First level, is the worst level in PFS. Once you clear that, then your character is built well enough to proceed on to the much harder and more dangerous things. Cause if you can't handle 1st level play, you may not be ready for elementals, yetti's, dragons, and even those giants I've heard about. Let alone characters who can cast wall of stone and ice, cloud kill, and black tentacles and put you in a death box when you get to higher levels.
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Master of the fallen fortress is insanely hard for first level characters. Most PFS scenarios are easier. It will be a lot easier when you can take more than one hit without dropping.
Try to play first steps to get a second level character, so you won't spend half your time horizontal.
Running away IS always an option. Its what your character would do after all. As long as you've completed 3 combats you still get xp.
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I found Darkest Vengeance to be the hardest Tier 1-5 I've ever played (although I can think of one harder that has a Subtier 1-2, although it's not 1-5...) I'm set to GM it soon, and I'm scared for the players, personally.
I've not played Master of the Fallen Fortress, but I've heard that one is difficult, too.
Bad luck in choices, I guess?
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Were you all brand-new characters? If so, your GM really steered you wrong with those two adventures. I can't think of a worse choice for 1st level than Darkest Vengeance. I would suggest trying out the First Steps series, both as an introduction to the personalities of the Society, and as adventures that are pretty well designed for new characters.
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Darkest Vengeance is tough. The are ways in the adventure to help yourself out, but they aren't obvious. There have been a few other tough low tier adventures; Slave Pits, for instance.
For new characters, I recommend the "Things to Buy" list from a different campaign:
here
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I think PFS modules are too difficult overall for the average player. I think select early modules and many year three and four modules are too difficult for anything except a well optimized home group. Darkest Vengeance is one of the nastier ones, I convinced the RPG organizer to run a different module instead of that one at a con several years back.
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Darkest Vengeance is one of the toughest in the campaign. Not a good starter; don't judge PFS on that one.
That was the second one I played, but the first one I played was Voice in the Void, and while that one was an eye-opening challenger (a bit like First Steps 1 & 2), it was a pretty good test-run to learn the difficulty of Pathfinder Society.
To have that followed up by Darkest Vengeance, well, let's just say I'm glad my character only had 1 experience point on it so I could have a go at it and then cross that scenario off my list forever.
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I think PFS modules are too difficult overall for the average player. I think select early modules and many year three and four modules are too difficult for anything except a well optimized home group. Darkest Vengeance is one of the nastier ones, I convinced the RPG organizer to run a different module instead of that one at a con several years back.
To clarify, you're talking about scenarios, not modules. This is important considering the OP referred to both a module (Masters of the Fallen Fortress) and a scenario (Darkest Vengeance).
Not sure which of those you're referring to, sieylianna, but I don't think either modules or scenarios are too difficult for the average player - they vary in difficulty depending on what you're playing.
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Maybe it's my region, maybe its the players out here. But the time I ran Master of the Fallen Fortress, it was an effort for me to challenge the PCs. Then again, some of the same PCs trounced all over Godsmouth Heresy. Sigh.
The one time I ran Darkest Vengeance, we ran out of time before the final encounter. And the PCs weren't very well-equipped to handle th scenario's shtick.
Hopefully, since I am scheduled to run it again this Saturday, this batch of PCs will be better prepared. Then again, due to some of the builds, most of the early encounters are going to be walk-overs.
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Maybe it's my region, maybe its the players out here. But the time I ran Master of the Fallen Fortress, it was an effort for me to challenge the PCs.
Quick question on how they handled a specific challenge.
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So I'm pretty new to Pathfinder Society play. Just started up at the game store after moving to town. We played Master of the Fallen Fortress.
** spoiler omitted **
Then we played an encounters adventure called Darkest Vengeance.
** spoiler omitted **
Are all the adventures this brutal? Yeesh!
Nope. They vary wildly. I distinctly remember my 20-person playgroup complaining that PFS was too easy. Then I started picking the really difficult stuff, and they suddenly stopped complaining (mainly post-mid-Season 3 stuff, and a few random tough things in 1 and 2).
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Grimclaw: not all PFS scenarios are that tough. Start with some season 1 scenarios. I'll list off some of my favorites that I don't think will be all that hard.
Murder on the Throaty Mermaid
The Beggars Pearl
The Pallid Plague
Voices in the Void
Assault on the Kingdom of the Impossible
Shades of Ice 1-3
That should serve to get you started. They are all quite fun, have some very good stories to tell, and are relatively easy to figure out and play.
Venture-Lieutenant, West Virginia—Charleston
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Grimclaw: not all PFS scenarios are that tough. Start with some season 1 scenarios. I'll list off some of my favorites that I don't think will be all that hard.
Murder on the Throaty Mermaid
The Beggars Pearl
The Pallid Plague
Voices in the Void
Assault on the Kingdom of the Impossible
Shades of Ice 1-3That should serve to get you started. They are all quite fun, have some very good stories to tell, and are relatively easy to figure out and play.
You say that about Voice in the Void, but the party I was in had a terrible time of it. We were initially TPKd'd at the BBEG until it was pointed out that our GM had misread the tactics; even then, it was extremely difficult. Also, at least two of the earlier fights posed serious problems for the party.
In retrospect, now that I have more experience, I realize what our problem was. Our party was composed of a level 4 inquisitor, level 2 druid, level 1 cleric and level 1 sorcerer(me). Our inquisitor was playing the front lines. This was problematic because, with only one person at the front lines, there's not enough of a buffer between them and the casters. Also, the enemies were extremely lucky; I was carrying two spells with saves, and everybody always made their saves.
The point of this is that, on paper to a new player, this scenario looked really, really bad. Here we have a party in the level 1-2 category whose average level is 2, and who is entirely annihilated in the first time that we play it. The problem was that it was the wrong party, and that the people at the table weren't really optimized. Thus, this "easy" scenario was a huge challenge for us.
(As a side note, thanks to these forums, I have since vastly improved my character and consider him to be more useful in combat.)
With regard to Con as my "dump" stat I guess my logic is this: unlike most other things in the game, HP seems least dependant on your stats--it's mostly class. High or low, your Con only adds or subtracts a couple of points per level, and with max starting HP, extra HP for leveling in a favored class, and the generous rounding up rules (5 HP per level instead of 4) I guess I don't feel the loss as keenly as I would the difference between say an 18 Armor Class and a 15. Plus how much damage things have been doing so far seem to have fallen into two categories: incidental (5 or less a hit, wouldn't kill you either way) or unstoppable (20ish, would KO you no matter what you chose.) So deprioritizing Con is a gamble, sure, but I figure it's at least a reasoned one.
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Venture-Lieutenant, West Virginia—Charleston
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With regard to Con as my "dump" stat I guess my logic is this: unlike most other things in the game, HP seems least dependant on your stats--it's mostly class. High or low, your Con only adds or subtracts a couple of points per level, and with max starting HP, extra HP for leveling in a favored class, and the generous rounding up rules (5 HP per level instead of 4) I guess I don't feel the loss as keenly as I would the difference between say an 18 Armor Class and a 15. It's a gamble, but I figure it's at least a reasoned one.
Well, you also need to realize that CON affects your Fort saves as well. It also determines how much damage you can take after being unconscious but before actually dying. 10 CON would be the ABSOLUTE minimum for me; 12-14 is much, much more comfortable (and not that expensive.)
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With regard to Con as my "dump" stat I guess my logic is this: unlike most other things in the game, HP seems least dependant on your stats--it's mostly class. High or low, your Con only adds or subtracts a couple of points per level, and with max starting HP, extra HP for leveling in a favored class, and the generous rounding up rules (5 HP per level instead of 4) I guess I don't feel the loss as keenly as I would the difference between say an 18 Armor Class and a 15. It's a gamble, but I figure it's at least a reasoned one.
In our local area, we jokingly call the "#1 Rule of PFS Character Building" is to not have less than 12 con for anything. And even if you do have 12 con, we usually recommend you get either toughness or use your favored class bonus into HP.
Trust me, you can never have enough hit points, no matter what class you are.
As a GM, I also find that if enemies don't follow this rule in the scenarios, they also tend to die very fast as well.
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Well Pathfinder Society isn't exactly the same as a regular game. In a normal game if anyone minmaxed their stat spread the way you do in Society play I'd be the first one clawing out my hair. That said you just can't play the baseline 12s and 13s guy with story based trait and feat picks without causing your party to hate you. You have to pull your weight.
I'm confused.
First you build a PC with one stat as high as you can legally go, with multiple dump stats. Then you say that minmaxed stats like that make you claw out your hair. Why did you build a PC that makes you claw out your hair?
As for the comment about 12s and 13s with story stuff, my cleric's pre-racial stats ranged from 12-14 (post-racial, 10-16) and he has a fully-written backstory and multiple mechanical choices made purely for story reasons.
And he's doing just fine, currently at 4th level.
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So I'm pretty new to Pathfinder Society play. Just started up at the game store after moving to town. We played Master of the Fallen Fortress.
** spoiler omitted **
Then we played an encounters adventure called Darkest Vengeance.
** spoiler omitted **
Are all the adventures this brutal? Yeesh!
I believe there are a few answers for the darkness even as low as lvl 1 such as Everburning Torch (110gp) , Ioun Torch (75gp), Aasimars get daylight once per day and Gnomes get Dancing light once per day. If I am not mistaken all of these would easily counter out the deeper darkness issue.
Also, did you ever consider backing out of the room you were ambushed in and drawing the enemy to you and away from its advantage point? Sometimes strategy is just as good as being prepared with an answer. A retreat is sometimes the best answer (although I have almost never seen a group do it).
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I believe there are a few answers for the darkness even as low as lvl 1 such as Everburning Torch (110gp) , Ioun Torch (75gp), Aasimars get daylight once per day and Gnomes get Dancing light once per day. If I am not mistaken all of these would easily counter out the deeper darkness issue.
You are mistaken. Only one of those options could counter Deeper Darkness, the Daylight spell. The rest of the options are too low of spell level to affect D.D.
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Yes, basically the Daylight spell can either be used to dispel the Deeper Darkness (not recommended usually, and requires a touch attack knowing where the source is) or suppress it.
Remember, if you suppress it by casting it on something else, the "Venn diagram" where they overlap is whatever the light level was before either spell was cast. If it's still normal darkness at that point, you can't brighten it with spells (as Deeper Darkness would suppress those), but you can brighten it with mundane sources, like a torch or sunrod. Although, those with darkvision would already be able to see in the suppressed area (which normally includes Aasimars).
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If it's still normal darkness at that point, you can't brighten it with spells (as Deeper Darkness would suppress those), but you can brighten it with mundane sources, like a torch or sunrod.
I'm not seeing the difference between how mundane and (low-level) magical light sources work within that area. Darkness says they both fail to raise the light level.
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Darn, tried to edit my post, and the time to edit it expired while I was editing it.
Anyway, you're correct. It would suppress all things of same level or lower and mundane sources. So basically, whatever light level it was before, it's pretty much stuck at that unless you cast a higher level light or darkness spell or one of those spells expire or no longer overlapping.
Edit: Actually, now that I think of it, mundane sources would be suppressed. So if the original light level was due to torches and such sources, it would default to regular darkness. Oh, so complex.
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Maybe it's my region, maybe its the players out here. But the time I ran Master of the Fallen Fortress, it was an effort for me to challenge the PCs.Quick question on how they handled a specific challenge.
** spoiler omitted **
And they died so quickly, the aura didn't do much, either.
And I think the Barbarian made the Reflex saves, to boot.
Felt like they were playing baseball. "Two up, two down."
Then again, party composition can really screw encounter difficulty.
Case in point: Playing QfP Part 1, final encounter. One PC went down, barely, then the Sorcerer starts spamming Glitterdust on the BBEG, who kept failing his first save, so getting blinded for a round.
Second round of blindness, it has taken a few points of damage, and my PC, who is a second level Magus with a CL boost for Shocking Grasp, and a scimitar, casts SG, moves up and crits (confirmed because of the effects of being blinded on its AC) on it. Don't quite kill it, it just goes unconscious. Then like all Raging Barbarians that go unconscious while Raging, it died when its Rage ended and it lost those extra hit points.
Side topic: Do Barbarians, in your experience, mostly die from losing the hit points from their Raging Constitution boost, rather then getting killed outright from straight damage or bleeding out?
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Edit: Actually, now that I think of it, mundane sources would be suppressed. So if the original light level was due to torches and such sources, it would default to regular darkness. Oh, so complex.
Probably best to let the default always be "whatever the scenario said was the lighting before the PCs got there". Otherwise, you eventually get to questions like "Is the sun a magical or mundane light source?" and "Even if the sun is high-level magic, then why not have the darkness spells say something like 'this plunges the room into darkness unless there's sunlight', since that's exactly what will happen EVERY SINGLE TIME IT'S CAST?"
And that way lies madness. ;)
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Side topic: Do Barbarians, in your experience, mostly die from losing the hit points from their Raging Constitution boost, rather then getting killed outright from straight damage or bleeding out?
This is more of a scaling problem that starts to get unavoidable around 4th-5th level. It's why Raging Vitality is such a nice feat for those who don't want to invest into Diehard.
Darkest Vengeance should be retired. Especially for tier 1-2.
I couldn't agree more.