RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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There's a classic adventure trope of the lightly-armored guy with a sword, no shield, and a tendency to nimbly dodge and deflect his opponents' attacks, retaliating with a mix of elbows/knees/kicks/punches/sword strikes/etc. Think of, for example, the movie version of Aragorn from Lord of the Rings.
For the longest time, I've thought this trope unable to be reproduced within the Pathfinder system - the closest I could think of was the duelist, but the flavor was a little off.
Now maybe this is old news and I'm just late to the party, but it dawned on me that I could actually build this for my next PFS character, primarily thanks to Ultimate Combat. Here's what I'm looking at:
Human (Dual Talent)
STR 17 (15+2, bump at 4th)
DEX 16 (14+2)
CON 14
INT 10
WIS 13 (bump at 8th)
CHA 10 (can't dump this; these guys are always at least marginally cool)
Fighter1(Unarmed):Improved Unarmed Strike, Crane Style sans prereqs, light armor proficiency, spend normal feat on EWP:Falcata
Monk1(MoMS):Unarmed damage 1d6, Crane Wing sans prereqs
Monk2:Evasion, Crane Riposte sans prereqs, spend normal feat on maybe Combat Reflexes
After 3rd level, I'm not sure what to do. I could take Fighter2 and get another bonus feat (Power Attack?). I could start taking Ranger just so I can stay full-BAB while simultaneously getting more skill points. I'm not sure.
Anyway, whaddy think folks? Or did I just catch up with what everyone else saw months ago?
"Sans" should be italicized, because it's a foreign word.
And what ever happened to that DPR character you wanted to make? Wouldn't actually, you know, hurting people with your sword be kind of cinematic too?
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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And what ever happened to that DPR character you wanted to make?
Same thing that happens to most of my character ideas, and will probably happen to this one: I lost interest before getting to actually play it. ;)
Wouldn't actually, you know, hurting people with your sword be kind of cinematic too?
That's what the high STR and Power Attack are for.
Based on your history, I'm sure you'll decide against Power Attack eventually, because it's "done to death."
I would say monk (weapon master) for the weapon feats and double d20 rolls. Had one in one of my games, it was nuts!
I'm sure he meant Weapon Adept, but that doesn't stack with Master of Many Styles.
And how about I tell you my thoughts on the build, if you respond to the PM I sent you yesterday?
I like the build..
But I would go Katana.. crits on 18-20 x2 with Keen you crit a lot more often.
If you continue with this, you should go all Fighter after the monk levels, for the Weapon Spec and Weapon Training. That plus Power Attack should get you to a DPR level that's more than just a rounding error.
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You know, when I think of what that type of lightly armored guy with a sword and no shield would be in Pathfinder, I usually just think rogue with a rapier. Being a rogue even goes well with the cinematic theme of those types of good guys usually having lots of skills outside of combat.
If he's a halfling, then add the Halfling Opportunist prestige class on top of that.
I agree with Rainy....
I built my Taldan swashbuckler as a weapon adept monk who dresses like a Musketeer. I use an épée and sometimes also a main gauche, which are secretly a temple sword and a sai.
Works great, I'm fast, mobile, and can fight well. I run into trouble when I'm the only tank, but I can usually get by if there's a summoned critter or animal companion up in the front lines.
And from time to time, the mobility is amazing. Swimming, climbing, all a snap.
One tip: spend your first 2 PA on a wand of Mage armor. I've just about used it up at 5th level, and will then replace it with a pearl of power.
Another option, if you're willing to suck for a couple levels, dump str and take lore warden to 3, picking up IUS, dodge, crane style, weapon finesse and dervish dance.
4 and 5 are MoMS taking the two crane styles you are missing.
lore warden till you qualify for duelist, retraining the copy of IUS at 4.
unfortunately you can't power attack.
You have enough feats to grab a crit chain or trip build (combat expertise for free!)
Good amount of skills from your int keeps you useful even if you can't do anything else.
If you don't have a high wisdom, you wear light armor and dodge one hit. Screw shields!
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Since you are getting the feats with no prereqs I would consider the Urban barbarian. Its a wonderful little archetype. Pick up Power attack at 5 and then focus on critting.
Otherwise go back to fighter, take a temple sword (to let you use your weapon training) and have fun.
I would have him look something like this at level 1:
Human Unarmed Fighter:
Str: 17
Dex: 12
Con: 14
Wis: 12
Int: 12
Cha: 12
Feats: Power Attack, Crane Style, Exotic Weapon Prof
Then go two levels of monk, then urban Barbarian. Take Guarded stance and Reckless Abandon as two of your rage powers.
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I could dip rogue, but... why? What is it you're wanting to accomplish with that dip?
Guess I missed something, I thought you were going for a swashbuckling, dodging, parrying, melee build. I was thinking rogue to focus more on dex and the doge bonus from a rogue talent. But I see you want str more than dex.
But I kinda understand what you are going for - there is a movie with James Purefoy called Ironclad. He is a templar knight who weilds a claymore or two handed sword. But he utilizes all parts of the weapon for combat and defense. I have thought about studying more into pathfinder to see the possibility of incorporating that into a character.
How exactly do you expect me to stay alive at low levels with 12 DEX and light armor?
Lol, there is a fighter class from a third party called Bounty Hunter - not sure if you have seen it, but it has a fighter BAB, only light armor profiency, higher skill points, and sneak attack.
I have played the class a couple times already in other campaigns and it is really fun and I think balanced.|
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Yeah, seems I confused a lot of people about my intent. Think Aragorn from Lord of the Rings (movie version). He's using what appears to be maybe a bastard sword, sometimes using two hands and sometimes one hand, no shield, and not really doing the "nimble duelist" schtick.
Although I've never played one, so I don't know how effective it is, but the Taldor Rondolero Duelist (fighter archetype) sounds interesting, plus you mentioned your interest in trying out falcata and the Rondolero is a falcata and buckler build. It has some cool sword trapping techniques using the buckler. I was going to try it out as a unique city guardsman NPC, especially with catching enemy swords for an upcoming urban game.
Here's the Rondolero archetype as listed on d20pfsrd.com
Full movement in armor (lt, med, heavy - it goes up), there's your mobility buff. 2-weapon style and acrobatics buff -the more I read it, the more it seems to fit your premise in a cool, mobile fighter with interesting fighting style, and includes your falcata. Sounds cinematic!
I'm sure Paizo won't mind the purchase - PDF is only $7.99, Pathfinder Player Companion: inner sea primer.
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Whenever I see someone wanting this kind of build, I always wonder why you can't just describe your actions as such. A round isn't necessarily 6 seconds, but you get 10 to a minute and I know you can take more than 10 swings with anything in a minute. Combat is always dynamic, and a minute is filled with wild swings, strategic positioning, feints, ducks, dodging, shoving, punching, kicking... and in the middle of all this the mechanics give you a number of chances to have these actions have a meaningful effect on an enemy.
So, my advice is to play whatever, in whatever armor, and find a GM who likes to play up the all little things that do little more than describe combat as something more than "5 foot step, attack with longsword, yay I rolled a 20!"
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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With the build I proposed, I can do that thing where I grab their sword arm as they swing, then kick them in the gut before they even know what's going on. Then I turn my attention to the next guy with my sword, and so on.
If I'm just a fighter with a sword, I can't do that. I'm into flavorful visions of combat, but I have limits: there's a difference between a guy who makes one swing with his sword and is done for the round, and a guy who attacks with his sword, literally deflects a sword blow with his hand and retaliates as an AoO all before his next turn. My personal sense of translation between mechanics and game-world action doesn't permit me to view the former as the latter. YMMV, of course.
In my experience, a Ranger (skirmisher/Infiltrator) might do what you want. In place of feats (or spells), you get Skirmisher tricks. They lend a fair amount of mobility and versatility to an otherwise boring STR based melee hacker.
Another option (which I have experimented with, to varying degrees of success) is a Ranger or Fighter using a longsword in one hand and unarmed strike in the other, with several level "dip" into Rogue with TWF.
When limited to a standard action or a move and standard, use Power Attack with two hands. When given the (rare in practice, but not on paper) chance to full attack, take a hand off (recall that it is a light weapon, and a spiked gauntlet = no feat) and use TWF, preferably while flanking, or some other method of gaining Sneak Attack.
This way, you still hit hard on single attacks, but you also get a damage boost on full attacks, if circumstances favor you.
It's as close as I have gotten to what you want in Pathfinder, a thing I have desired upon occasion as well.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Perhaps I should clarify...
I posted the first three levels of a build. The idea was to get advice on that build. Mainly future levels, also potential tweaks to those three levels I posted. But people are mostly giving me suggestions for entirely different builds.
So please, could I get some advice on THIS build? If you want to suggest tweaks (like "put a little in CHA and invest in UMD" or something), great. But please help me with this PC, not some other PC.
Thanks.
Yeah, not quite what I was going for. Perhaps "swordsman" gave the wrong impression in the title.
I know what your going for...
Madmartigan from willow
Also have you thought about Magus Kensai?
You can pick the bastard sword, take a few levels in it to get your full int bonus to AC and then switch fighter
you play it more of a fighter with a few tricks up his sleeve
I think your build is starting well. It looks similar to an Aldori Swordlord achetype that I built that also takes 2 levels of Monk (mixing the Master of Many Styles, Hungry Ghost and Sacred Mountain). Our GM allowed me to swap out Hvy Armor Proficiency at Fighter 4th to get Crane Style.
He wears a breastplate and Power Attacks with his Aldori Duelling sword two-handed, removing his off-hand at the end of his turn, in order to get the bonuses for fighting one-handed with off-hand empty.
Between the class benefits for Aldori Swordlord achetype, Crane Wing/Crane Riposte, Snake Style/Fang, and fighting defensively at all times, by 7th level his AC was in the 30s and he got to deflect incoming attacks and hit anyone who missed him...sometimes twice.
It is the first build that I have actually gotten to come close to the type of character you are describing and it is something I have wanted to build for a long time.
The one drawback is that he functions best against single, weapon-wielding opponents. Most of his AoO are taken as disarms. Against beasts, he is not as good and being grappled really cramps his style.
Here's how I would build it:
STR >> CON >> DEX = WIS >> INT >> CHA
Wearing medium/heavy armor, standard fighter and master of many styles and monk of the sacred mountain archetypes
1. Fighter (1): Dodge, Weapon Focus,
2. Fighter (2): Power Attack
3. Monk (1): IUS, Stunning Fist, Crane Style, Crane Wing
4. Monk (2): Crane Riposte, toughness
5. Fighter (3): Furious Focus
6. Fighter (4): Weapon Specialization
7. Fighter (5): Iron Will
From here on out continue fighter or go into barbarian, take two more monk levels for saves (though armor means you won't profit from fast movement). Chevalier might be a nice prestige class to pursue, it's easy to qualify for and give good stuff. Similarly, if you take Endurance Horizon Walker is good option. If you don't mind loosing BAB, Alchemist can get you mutagen, extracts and sneak attack.
If you want to go with light armor (or no armor, wands of mage armor are cheap) have a higher dex, but don't skimp on the strength. You can then skip monk of the sacred mountain, if you want to take advantage of evasion and take the lore warden fighter archetype, giving you combat expertise.
If you want to focus on dex, consider a Sinbad build. Take 2 levels of ranger to get power attack without the STR minimum as well as lorewarden figher and master of many styles monk. You're set up to go into duelist, if you want to, +1 damage/level is as good as what you're getting elsewhere. Put 14 in CON, 12 or 14 in INT, the rest can go into DEX.
1. Fighter (1): Dodge, Weapon Finesse,
2. Fighter (2): Dervish Dance, Weapon Expertise
3. Monk (1): IUS, Stunning Fist, Crane Style, Crane Wing
4. Monk (2): Crane Riposte,
5. Ranger (1): Mobility
6. Ranger (2): Power Attack
7+. Duelist (x)
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I think at the moment by biggest questions are these:
First, where to put those 3 mental stat points? WIS for will saves? INT for skills and potentially some maneuver feats? CHA for UMD and social skills?
Second, what do I level in after 3rd? Fighter for feats and Weapon Spec? Ranger for Favored Enemy and skill ranks? Urban Barbarian for Controlled Rage (and 2 more skill ranks/level than the fighter)?
Ah, sorry, I failed to read everything.
Regarding the stat points, it really comes down to whether you want skills points or social skills. If you want neither, WIS is the place to put them.
If you're invested in the Falcata already, going fighter 4 might not be a bad idea. But since you have the unarmed fighter archetype weapon training will not help you all that much, so I'd advise against more than 4 levels of fighter. The 2nd fighter level is tempting in any case.
Dipping Barbarian is always good. If you decide to not pursue any long feat chains, you can spare two feats for extra rage which will get you more than enough rounds of rage.
Many of the rage powers are based on class level and you already have 3 non-barbarian levels. For that reason I would not take more than 1 level of barbarian.
If you want to invest in intimidate, 2 levels of cavalier (order of the cockatrice) can get you dazzling display as a standard action as well as +2 to hit demoralized targets. The gendarme archetype can net you a bonus feat from a limited list (but it includes power attack) at first level. If you take 4 levels, you can take the horse master feat and get a usable mount.
The chevalier prestige class is easy to qualify for (you could enter at 8th level) and in 3 levels gets you a reroll against enchantment, aura of courage, smite evil 1/d at your character level and a few other advantages.
If you don't mind loosing another point of BAB, 4 levels of alchemist are incredible if you pick the right archetypes, netting you two discoveries or bonus feats, 2d6 sneak attack, a mutagen for 40 minutes a day, 2nd level extracts (including the supreme draught that is alchemical allocation), even a familiar.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I had also thought of samurai level(s), mainly for Resolve. Of course, more than one level of samurai starts to scream "use a katana", although some class features could be used to pump up a backup bow, I suppose.
I don't necessarily mind a second BAB loss, but alchemist seems too off-concept for this guy. (I'm not even sure about UMD, to be honest.) I could see maybe tossing in some rogue every couple of levels, letting fighter and rogue balance out for skill points (i.e., 2 levels of fighter and 1 level of rogue is equivalent of 4 skill ranks/level).
Decisions, decisions...
The problem with the Aldori Swordlord PRC is that it's main attraction is DEX to damage, with the original build doesn't want.
I didn't mention Rogue for the simple reason, that I think it's exceptionally weak, mechanical. In particular, if you consider the Vivisectionist. The best Rogue talents give you bonus feats, one of which you don't need. Compared with fighter and if you want weapon focus, taking 4 levels of rogue basically trades reflex for will and fortitude, +1 BAB for +2d6 sneak attack and 4d8 for 4d10 hit points.
If you're going for intimidate, the Thug archetype is decent, though.
I can see, why you would find it flavorful, but I don't really feel that the Rogue does a good job at interpreting that flavor. You have monk levels, those already give you a sense of bouncy athleticism via class skills and fast movement, if you want to.
As for Samurai, one use of resolve is nice, but not overwhelming and it gives you little else that you can use.
Meele wise, I think Barbarian is your best bet. Throw in the second fighter level, two levels of cockatrice cavalier and you're at level seven without a second BAB lost.
More Barbarian is not a loss, but you could just as well go Ranger, focusing maybe on adding archery feats.