My only problem with the initiation process was that it had no game effect. A Wizard who had gone through the training is exactly the same as a Wizard who has not. What exactly was the point of the training then? What was learned?
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My only problem with the initiation process was that it had no game effect. A Wizard who had gone through the training is exactly the same as a Wizard who has not. What exactly was the point of the training then? What was learned?
There are certain archetypes and prestige classes that make perfect sense as representations of Pathfinder training (and are intended to be so). If you don't want to use them, then your training is just flavour... but the options are there.
It has been stated on the boards multiple times by James Jacobs that the unpleasant aspects of the Pathfinder Society were overplayed considerably in Seekers of Secrets than how they were originally intended.I always think it's a little odd when the folks at Paizo essentially say "Oops, we wrote the wrong book". ;-)
More like: "Damn, that didn't seem so harsh when we were writing this..."
Some ideas just look different on paper than they do in your head.
My main experience with the Pathfinders is in _Council of Thieves_. (Possible spoilers follow)
They do not come across favorably there, though I guess you could blame it all on a couple of bad apples. But my impression is that they are indeed Victorian gentleman-adventurers, motivated by glory, curiosity, and greed, but able to think of themselves as good guys because glory and curiosity come first, and because they're brave and daring.
They were the kind of people who go into a Mwangi tribe and take their most holy artifact away and put it in a private museum in a distant nation. (That thing was holy to my PC's deity, in an inspired piece of backstory-connection by the GM. I took it personally.) And then never understand it, and allow it to cause immense harm.
That's not Indiana Jones, that's the other guy.
I don't mind this portrayal. My PCs have one Pathfinder friend; they don't trust the organization as a whole, no more than they trust the Expeditionary (which means they'd murder any Pathfinder who posed a threat to them, if they could get away with it, as they've murdered an Expeditionary captain already; they're Chelish aristocrats and not nice people themselves).
But attractive? No. No more or less than the Expeditionary. One grabs other peoples' stuff for the glory of the Decimvirate, the other for the glory of the Empress. And they are both pretty much informational black holes, which would bother any PC of mine who was devoted to the disinterested pursuit of knowledge.
My player refused to do Pathfinders for Shattered Star--we have developed too clear a view of them as a basically bad group, and a group that would logically and necessarily want to do the wrong thing at the end of S*.
I do agree that many more nations than Cheliax would ban them. Consider the centuries of conflict between the Egyptians and the British Museum. Tomb-robbing is not attractive when it's your ancestors' tombs, on your land, and the stuff is being carried off to a distant country that is probably not your friend. I'm not troubled by their presence in Magnimar because the Magnimaran government is weak and conflicted; equally with Riddleport; but I'd be a bit surprised if Mendev or Andora would tolerate them.
Hmmmm...not feeling it....care not given...process failed!
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People like to throw around this moral "ambiguous" phrase, but I think it's pretty clear the Society is just immoral. They have zero interest in keep dangerous artifacts out of the wrong hands. They have full interest in taking everything they can and keeping it in their own hands, including the secret on how to break down magic items into components and reconstruct them or use them to build new magic items. This is an organization that has stumbled upon an ancient historical secret of the past, claimed it as their own unique badge, thinks it's cool to kill those who rightfully own or steal from non-Society members Wayfinders. Or who are absolutely fine harboring outright evil, or preserving it, and thin they have some authority over even the divine to deny their paladins and clerics the right to rectify that stupidity. A group that willing had their would be allies killed so they could have first pick from the museums' stock when they did finally stop the bad thing from happening. Or at other times actually caused them, so that others would have to come to them for help so they could appear to be saviors.
People like to throw around this moral "ambiguous" phrase, but I think it's pretty clear the Society is just immoral.Depends what you consider to be "morality".
Depends on what you consider "theft".
Depends on what you would call a "thieves' guild".
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I do, but no, I wasn't meaning that in the statement. :)
I was referring more to the times that the goal was to go take something(s) from the rightful owner and bring it back to me, no matter what. Now, I'm not saying that there are not good people within the Society, and we are also not talking abut PFS specifically (which doesn't allow Evil players), but rather the actual organization within the setting. However within PFS, there was a bit of a change after the inclusion of the newer Factions.
They were the kind of people who go into a Mwangi tribe and take their most holy artifact away and put it in a private museum in a distant nation. (That thing was holy to my PC's deity, in an inspired piece of backstory-connection by the GM. I took it personally.) And then never understand it, and allow it to cause immense harm.
That's not Indiana Jones, that's the other guy.
To be fair that's both of them. Indie is only the good guy by virtue of the other guy being worse- he's still going to steal your holy relic and take it somewhere else. (much like the pathfinder society and the aspis consortium).
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You're going to need to be a bit more specific. The only times I recall taking things from "rightful owners' were those in such things were better off if those items were separated from those who had them as they were planning on some malicious mischief with them.
According to who? :)
Anyway, here are a few examples.