It seems odd the BBEG is a Bard, I would understand, really if the plot were she had her subjects fooled up her charisma and lies the entire time, up until the bitter end, however as it were, it seems she fails every diplomacy roll possible, the masses hate her.
Wouldn't she be better as a Sorceress? Or even a Summoner? (her focus on Pacts with Devils and such)
I'm considering a synthesist summoner reskin of Illeosa where she manifests a Kazavon Eidolon.
Anyone care to jump in, with comments or help on designing this BBEG?
I wonder why she's a bard in the first place....?
Just thinking about this more:
Several directions the BBEG could go:
Summoner
Sorceress/Dragon Disciple
and Alchemist/Master Chymist.
The Alchemist makes sense, especially in the beginning, what with poisoning her husband and such, the plague etc, her connection to the doctors.
Master Chymist would be interesting, because the pool could give her the power to turn into "something else" and her alter ego could be Kazavon. Much fun there.
The dragon disciple like wise with the blue dragon blood line much fun and certainly the easiest NPC build.
I have never build a summoner/eidilon before, however have the feeling this would be the most powerful version of the BBEG as the Eidilon would be a manifestation of Kazavon.
There is also some argument in me for Illeosa to be a Sorceress/ Cleric of Zon Kuthon/ Mystic theurge.
I'm not finding the motivation/feel for bard at all, other than the mind control of certain maidens pressed into service, which A) could easily have been an underling and B) is really and underlying sub plot and doesn't justify her being a bard.
She's not playing a tune and controlling the masses like a pied piper.... just don't feel it.
If she wants to wave around her rapier disguised as a fan, her 2 levels of aristocrat cover her rapier prof. or any armor she might have worn at one point.
Anyone care to weigh in?
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1st off, when they created CotCT, Alchemist and Summoner were not viable choices, as it was created for 3.5 and well before APG was even an inkling.
I see her as a bard because she has manipulated people for her entire life. Bard seems like the right choice. I am sure that if it were rewritten, maybe they would give her an archetype or something that would fit more to her path, or maybe it's all a power grabbing game to her... in which case, bard fits just fine to me.
I'm aware of when they wrote it.
Sorceress and dragon disciple were not new.
The question is why is she a Bard? No one is under a deep spell or victims of her songs, it seems as if her talents in that department are wasted. She didn't even do the breaking of unwilling maidens herself and left that to underlings.
She doesn't cast spells and wear armor... it just doesnt seem to fit well.
The point of asking, is, is there an integral part of the storyline, that is supported by her being a bard that I'm missing, i.e. why is she a bard, because I'm thinking of rebuilding her, and want to know why she was a bard and not say a sorceress.
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It's a concept thing, not a class abilities thing. She was a manipulator, and not usually via magic, in 3.5, the bard is the concept that I would gravitate toward simply on that simple personality type. If you take into account that she obviously had Perform (oratory) and may have realized the limitations of enchantment magics, she looked instead for something that might be a little more permanent.
No one says that a bard needs to wear armor. (Especially since she took a crossbow bolt to the temple and didn't die, she simply did not need it.) Of course, I did not run the AP and am looking at it from the perspective of a player.
As near as I have figured out, she was a bard first, all of the demon binding and stuff didn't start happening until she was under the influence of the crown and Kazavon. If you want to rebuild her as a Sorceress, go for it, I just don't think that it was the original intent.
First reason she wasn't a summoner: the guy in charge of Golarion doesn't like them.
Second reason: The summoner wasn't around yet.
cheapy, no asked why she isn't a summoner. I'm rebuilding the BBEG because I dont have access to things like "devil bound human" material. Etc.
Even if we keep her as a bard, the class has changed much from 3.5 and if I rewrite/convert to pathfinder I dont have the material for "devil bound human"
I'm considering making her something else. I want to know why bard was chosen, she's not at all successful and a manipulative seductress in the story line. Even her thrall Sabine, was never "under control" via class abilities or spells, she was just in love.
the only thing Illeosa used successfully was skills, for which she doesnt need bard, to do.
I dont think she was a bard to begin with, she has two levels of aristocrat, thats what she was.
Now converting to pathfinder, what would be the reason to have her still be a bard, anything in the story or happenings that need her or based on her being a bard?
Plus anyone have any idea what templates I can give her in pathfinder? I was thinking possibly using mythic tiers? What in pathfinder could I use for "devil bound human"?
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You say she was unsuccessful, but you have to remember, she manipulated the King into marrying her, and she was not of noble birth, if I remember correctly. She was also able to get several noble/influential houses to side with her.
And by "to begin with" I mean once she became PC class-worthy.
But that being said, do what would make it more interesting or make more sense to you. As GM, I think it will help you tell the story better. Just be careful, because even as a bard, she was crazy nasty enough to give us quite a bit of problems endgame.
EDIT: You could give her the advanced template, or possibly a mythic tier or two, but it will make things significantly tougher. Also, Paizo has a tendency to add extra things already to make the BBEG bigger and badder. As an example, Karzoug was significantly tougher than what he would have been normally...
Well shes really only crazy nasty powerful because of her alterations (mega magic items and this devil bound human thing, which I dont have)
I mean as just a bard, she'd drop like a fly. it's what isnt a bard that makes her nasty.
She was from a noble family in cheliax, she always been a spoiled brat. She has plenty of political contacts in cheliax where she came from. She didn't manipulate Eodred magically, she was just hot and young, and that was his thing. But she wasn't a commoner.
The only people that side with her, do so out of fear and intimidation, she didn't "charm" anyone.
Her 'story' follows exactly what kazavon did... took control and got so powerful by the time people realized there was a serious evil afoot, it was too late.
Illeosa is who she is, and what she is because of Kazavon, The Sable company marine would have handed her a new one, if it weren't for the fangs and her possession by kazavon.
Her connection to kazavon and a deal made with the devil is what gives her formidable power.
So in modern pathfinder, what would those templates or powers be?
Creative Director
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Illeosa is a bard because that's my favorite class, and because I wanted to do an Adventure Path where the main bad guy (or bad gal in this case) had lots of bard levels.
If I were to make her using the game today, I'd probably not make many changes to her; I'd use the same templates and probably would not use any archetypes.
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Pendagast - In my game she will for sure be a Sorceress/Dragon Disciple . It's cooler than a bard IMO and it also makes MUCH more sense. After all the source of most of her powr should be the Crown of Fangs. I can see why that kind of artifact would grant many levels in Sorcerer (blue dragon bloodline), but for the life of me can't figure out where the bard levels come from.
A villain who would make much more sense as a bard would be maybe the BBEG of Council of Thieves, or maybe some boss in one of the numerous dungeons of Shatterd Star. For CotCT however, Ileosa never seemed like much of a bard to me.
Illeosa is a bard because that's my favorite class, and because I wanted to do an Adventure Path where the main bad guy (or bad gal in this case) had lots of bard levels.
If I were to make her using the game today, I'd probably not make many changes to her; I'd use the same templates and probably would not use any archetypes.
yea i know bard is your favorite class, i pretty much assumed that's why she was a bard.
What's this devil bound thing, I don't have the info for that.
Even if I was to redo her has a bard, how do i reapply this template?
Pendagast - In my game she will for sure be a Sorceress/Dragon Disciple . It's cooler than a bard IMO and it also makes MUCH more sense. After all the source of most of her powr should be the Crown of Fangs. I can see why that kind of artifact would grant many levels in Sorcerer (blue dragon bloodline), but for the life of me can't figure out where the bard levels come from.
A villain who would make much more sense as a bard would be maybe the BBEG of Council of Thieves, or maybe some boss in one of the numerous dungeons of Shatterd Star. For CotCT however, Ileosa never seemed like much of a bard to me.
I agree snow, just seems if she was a bard, there should be more "mind control" going on.
But any who.
I thought, maybe, to make things less complicated layer wise. a Synthesist summoner would fit the "kazavon with in" theme rather well.
I 'think' a synthesist summoner would be just as powerful without any added templates as the altered bard with added templates was in 3.5, if not more so.
The Blue dragon sorceress/dragon disciple certainly makes sense as her power grows (and leaves the return of the actual kazavon open), but I think would be less powerful than Illeosa as originally presented, don't you think?
I like her for an alchemist (the poisoner thing) and going master chymist would represent the kazavon within again, but not as powerful again.
The Dragon disciple actually does it better the more I think of it.
I might build a synthesist and a dragon disciple and see which one gives the most kaboom, without adding anything extra.
Dragon disciple is certainly the easiest and least work.
agreed. however summoning isnt a low cha career either. Pitting ones ego against the creatures one summons. Clerics and Druids usually have higher cha too.
with that argument would open possessed oracle as well.
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Pendagast - In my game she will for sure be a Sorceress/Dragon Disciple . It's cooler than a bard IMO and it also makes MUCH more sense. After all the source of most of her powr should be the Crown of Fangs. I can see why that kind of artifact would grant many levels in Sorcerer (blue dragon bloodline), but for the life of me can't figure out where the bard levels come from.
A villain who would make much more sense as a bard would be maybe the BBEG of Council of Thieves, or maybe some boss in one of the numerous dungeons of Shatterd Star. For CotCT however, Ileosa never seemed like much of a bard to me.
The Blue dragon sorceress/dragon disciple certainly makes sense as her power grows (and leaves the return of the actual kazavon open), but I think would be less powerful than Illeosa as originally presented, don't you think?
Challange accpeted - sometimes in this week I'll try to make some sort of build for Ileosa that would be powerful enough for your taste :) can't promise anything those because last time I built a high level (level 15 or more) NPC was during 3.5 edition, and it was a build meant to represeant an archtype, not to be powerful. I'll try though.
I kind of disagree on the synthesit summoner idea though. From a flavor point of view it dosen't make sense to me because a summoner is bound to an outsider, which Kazavon is certainly not. The summoner is also in control of his Eidlon and it's powers, while Ileosa is not the one in control in her relationship with Kazavon.
Thats just all flavor, I've seen a few summoners who role played their eidolon being in control.
But in the case of the Dragon Disciple, is she any less in control, by virtue of her class?
The Summoner Synthesist allows Kazavon to materialize , doesn't mean he's not in control.
a summoner is alot of work to build however.
The DCs the 3.5 illeosa has however are over whelming, my party would be 100 percent charmed, Im sure.
Mind numbingly powerful is one thing, a no win situation is another.
The synthesist would be much more cinematically cool
What's this devil bound thing, I don't have the info for that.
It's a template from the Advanced Bestiary by Green Ronin.
yea again i dont have it
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Fortunately for you, it's available on PFSRD. Just google it a bit.
As for Ileosa, Bard makes sense to me, especially with the Court Bard archetype. But BBEG with NPC class levels? Well, that's just silly. I know it makes sense, on account her being an actual aristocrat, but it would also make sense for all those farmers turned adventurers when their village was destroyed by orcs to have levels of Commoner, but of course that doesn't happen.
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yea again i dont have it
Thanklessly providing help once again to the unappreciative: here.
yea again i dont have it
mmm ok then, youll need a good reason for ileosa´s bardic levels:
i guess when she was at her parents, they do not think she would be a Queen, so, maybe she has some dreams for being a bard, singing songs, reach the courts hall by fame and glory, maybe she wants the whole world knows her...
then she married with a king, in some way, she achieve the atention from the whole realm at all, but she went to study at bardic school for her own motives.
that was a romantic idea, since, Ileosa was a victim, not ar villian at all...
i hope u like my answer
cheers!!
by the way, if im running that adventure again, maybe i let her as she are (with some rogues gestalt levels) and none of the archetypes too... because they silly
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As others have stated she's a bard because she's a master manipulator.
She manipulated the king and his hunchbacked brother. She manipulates the head of the Grey Maidens. Her performance ability doesn't see much play in politics, but in combat can be used to bolster devilish allies.
She's not a sorceress because that's not in her blood. Not a summoner because it wasn't invented yet.
I'm not arguing why she's a bard or not, I wanted to know WHAT DEPENDED on her BEING a bard.
In the story line anyone with a high cha and skill points can manipulate but no one was charmed or under her spell.
Which seems odd a bit really, she advances in power as a bard without ever using her abilities as a bard. meh I don't like it.
thanks for the devil bound creature link at least i can duplicate that now.
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Well, you could just make her better at manipulating others as a result of her bard abilities. I know I plan to if/when I get to run this.
Personally, I'm looking at dumping the whole Kazavon thing in favor of a more intrigue-based back half, in which the identity of the bad guy is not so black-and-white.
In Pathfinder, the bard class is not a primary-spellcasting or primary-martial class; it's a primary-skill class. So, just find some clever uses of Ileosa's skills and have their results be in your run, and you'll be set.
-Matt
yea the bard abilities wear off over time though, leaving the target realizing something had occurred.
She is definitively a bard at the beginning of the game .
She has successfully manipulated all the people she wanted to manipulate ( Sabrina , the king , etc ).
Only Bards can manipulate and not everybody with Diplomacy/Bluff?
yea see that's my point.
Every ex girl friend I have had must secretly be harboring bard levels if that were the case....
Good one. :D
well problem with that is that an 18th level aristocrat wouldnt be very scary of a final boss.
ooh goodie, thanks! I missed something? exxcellllent. More reading fun.
(I'm starting to think Dragon Disciple is the way to go tho.... I might give her 8 bard/10 Dragon disciple)
Edit: all that mentions is spells, there is no required action there needing her to be a bard to do any of it. Sorceress would suffice.
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Ok, so I've decided to make illeosa a witch, I'm replacing togomor with a hag of some kind, and use the Imp as illeosas familiar. The eryines will me hexcrafter magi and part if the coven.
She,ll have the plague patron (fitting I think) so the hag,illeosa and the eryines are all part if the coven
Ill give her cauldron too , from which she brewed her poison for eodred.
I'm going to change the cult of urgsthoa to extended members of her coven. I might even make some hexcrafter gray maidens.
I want more if this to be her and not so many other organizations involved. I'm going to up the involvement of shadow count sial and/or laori as well, trying to get them involved withe the pcs to an even greater extent.
Might change crazy jester to a witch as well, or maybe an alchemist by make her part of he cult following.
Thoughts on the red mantis? I'm thinking of making them an assassin branch of the maidens, rather than hired hit men. Maybe just using ninja or regular assassins for the builds.?
Comments?
i was figuring out about this:
what happens if Ileosa after possession, becomes a dar priest of Kazavon or at some point (after contract) she becomes a priest for Asmo?
tath would be a organic change at all (i still prefeer to see ileosa as a victim than a main villain) i mean, she was a ari 2/ bard 16... what if we change that to Ari2/ Bard 4/Clr (asmo/kaza 12)?
even her psychic healt and even personality changes since that...
we were fighting an a possession here.
I wonder what class was kazavon? I have a hard time thinking he was 'just' a dragon. He had to have some class levels, no?
I know dragons are innately sorcerers, but I kinda picture him as a Magus.
casting spells, swinging a sword, wearing armor.
But I suppose maybe he could have been a bard? That would explain Illeosa's sudden advancement in her power.
He could have been an Arcane duelist or a battle herald?
hmmmm musing.
I wonder what class was kazavon? I have a hard time thinking he was 'just' a dragon. He had to have some class levels, no?
I know dragons are innately sorcerers, but I kinda picture him as a Magus.
casting spells, swinging a sword, wearing armor.But I suppose maybe he could have been a bard? That would explain Illeosa's sudden advancement in her power.
He could have been an Arcane duelist or a battle herald?
hmmmm musing.
thats not necesary, since kaz is dead and becomes a set of items...
but ileosa is not dead...so maybe you just make bard/magus or bard/cleric of asmodeus
I wonder if you will make one of your players sits for a 1000 days for the ritual with that item...
DM: "...and one of you guys, must remain here, sit at this place over a 1000 days undoing this item, by one ring for one day"
Troled Player: "why, i mean, why me, i dont want to remain here"
i dont know, maybe thats the way to retire a character from the table... maybe the cheatiest or the overpowered
well if you duel classed Illeosa, then she'd probably be too weak.
Magus has a lot of stuff going on and choices, not a very good choice for a DM.
Bard is similar too "oh I forgot about the this n that"
I'm not arguing why she's a bard or not, I wanted to know WHAT DEPENDED on her BEING a bard.
Well there's your problem. If you didn't want people giving you reasons as to why she's a bard, you probably shouldn't have asked "Why is she a bard..?" in your OP...
And I'd say that nothing necessarily depended on her being a bard - the writers wanted er to be a bard, so she was. Bards have all the class skills and skill points to do the manipulation she did - I can reasonably imagine that they made her a bard and thought, "What do bards do? They excel at social interaction. Ok, so let's say she's manipulated everyone her whole life..."
Bam. Class choice leads to story instead of the other way round, maybe? It's a theory, anyhow.
To reiterate: I don't think anything depends on her being a bard, in the same way that Karzoug's tale requires him to be a wizard. And I think that's a good thing :)
well if you duel classed Illeosa, then she'd probably be too weak.
Magus has a lot of stuff going on and choices, not a very good choice for a DM.
Bard is similar too "oh I forgot about the this n that"
she´s main villain in the story, gestalt her with other class to get beter feeling with
I wonder what class was kazavon? I have a hard time thinking he was 'just' a dragon. He had to have some class levels, no?
I know dragons are innately sorcerers, but I kinda picture him as a Magus.
casting spells, swinging a sword, wearing armor.But I suppose maybe he could have been a bard? That would explain Illeosa's sudden advancement in her power.
He could have been an Arcane duelist or a battle herald?
hmmmm musing.
He was 'just' a Great Wyrm Blue Dragon and Chosen of Zon-Kuthon. Says so in Inner Sea Magic.
That doesn't sound like 'just' to me.
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I wonder what class was kazavon? I have a hard time thinking he was 'just' a dragon. He had to have some class levels, no?
I know dragons are innately sorcerers, but I kinda picture him as a Magus.
casting spells, swinging a sword, wearing armor.But I suppose maybe he could have been a bard? That would explain Illeosa's sudden advancement in her power.
He could have been an Arcane duelist or a battle herald?
hmmmm musing.
He was 'just' a Great Wyrm Blue Dragon and Chosen of Zon-Kuthon. Says so in Inner Sea Magic.
That doesn't sound like 'just' to me.
I figure if he comes back though he'd also be a revanent wyrm (the dragon template from bestiary 2)
well, is he being resurrected, or coming back from the grave?
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I've found one good reason Ileosa should still be a bard in PF Rules:
The Court Bard Archetype.
This adds a whole new dynamic to her final fight wherein the PCs are being constantly addled with debuffs from the huge amount of Court Bards ridiculing, taunting, and harrassing them with words. They might figure out really quickly which Ileosa is the REAL one, but with the stacking debuffs on basically any action they take? It's going to be a hard time to take care of them.
Silence could help them, but Silence only covers so much of the field and tends to shut down spellcasting friendlies just as much as it shuts down spellcasting foes. Combined with how the bard can be a pretty good fighter, they can cast spells while doing a bardic performance, and they can be pretty good fighters?
Fighting a room full of hostile bards makes a lot of sense.
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If you allow 3.5 feats, Doomspeak feat from Champions of Ruin (p20) also is fitting (if you are re-tooling her for a home campaign):
http://dndtools.eu/feats/champions-of-ruin--27/doomspeak--686/
That would fit the Court Bard archtype nicely.
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Me? I'm using the Sound Striker archetype. When the players walk in and a room full of Bards that can all use the Weird Words ability to send cutting blades of sonic energy, it'll be interesting.
[Edit] Here's Ileosa's Tactics:
Tactics: When Ileosa detects the PCs presence, she first casts Freedom Of Movement, followed by Extended Shadowbard (which begins using Inspire Courage), then Mind Fog at the entrance to her chambers and an Extended Virtuoso Performance. When the PCs all enter the Mind Fog, she activates Inspire Heroics on herself and orders them to "Kneel and worship your Queen" while casting Overwhelming Presence. If there are any PCs that aren't affected, she will also use Quickened Charm Monster on them. On her next turns she maintains Inspire Heroics via Virtuoso Performance while using Weird Words to target the non-grovelling, uncharmed PCs (so will any remaining Simulacrums). Ileosa tries to make use of the Mind Fog to target PCs with spells like Song of Discord or Irresistible Dance, Hold Monster or Charm Person.
If there are any archers in the party that Ileosa is aware of, she uses Wall of Sound to shield her from the attacks of such characters, forming a curving protective shield.
It sounds a little brutal, but the PCs will get a hint of what she is capable of when they encounter her. Btw, my Ileosa will be a full Lvl 20 Bard when the party faces her. I plan of having the Party witness a meeting between Ileosa and some of the Nobles that are opposing her. She will have captured some allied with the Resistance and will use Weird Words to execute 10 of them all at the same time. Then, she will using Overwhelming Presence to have as many Nobles as possible start worshiping. After this point, she will look directly at the scrying sensor and smirk at the party, before everything goes blank.
my party will all die with this.... fast, very fast.
my party will all die with this.... fast, very fast.
Short of things going completely pear shaped, I plan on my party fighting Ileosa at 16th-18th level. Ileosa herself will be a 20th level Bard with the Devil-Bound template (which I custom created for Hero Labs). Her advanced point-buy, extreme wealth and wielding the Crown of Fangs will round her all up to CR 22.
yes but there is the erineyes, more mini me illeosas, and the overwhelmingly whopping DCs. they will all be charmed and splattered in rounds.