Weapon Blanch and Arrows

[Renvale987]

A character in my upcoming game wants to use weapon blanch to make his arrows adamantine.

After reading the description, it seems to me that you would never buy adamantine arrows when you can simply weapon blanch them? It costs 100gp per does of weapon blanch, vs 60gp per arrow for regular adamantine arrows?

Am I wrong in assuming this or? Why do adamantine arrows exist if you can simply weapon blanch them?

[Aratrok]

Adamantine arrows can still penetrate hardness.

Blanched arrows only penetrate DR/adamantine.

[Renvale987]

Aratrok wrote:

Adamantine arrows can still penetrate hardness.

Blanched arrows only penetrate DR/adamantine.

Why in God's green earth would you be using arrows to say, break down a wall lol? That seems silly.

[Jiggy]

Renvale987 wrote:

Aratrok wrote:

Adamantine arrows can still penetrate hardness.

Blanched arrows only penetrate DR/adamantine.

Why in God's green earth would you be using arrows to say, break down a wall lol? That seems silly.

Because some people don't carry secondary weapons under any circumstances. :/

[Renvale987]

It just seems like you're gaming the system. You're getting adamantine ammunition for a fraction of the price. As a player, I would never buy adamantine arrows, I would just always blanch them, its cheaper. I'm never going to use my arrows to break down a door something stupid like that.

[Sober Caydenite]

Renvale987 wrote:

It just seems like you're gaming the system. You're getting adamantine ammunition for a fraction of the price. As a player, I would never buy adamantine arrows, I would just always blanch them, its cheaper. I'm never going to use my arrows to break down a door something stupid like that.

It would matter in a fight against animated objects, but that's about it. Perhaps throwing durable arrows into the mix, or a GM who allows PCs to recover the virtually-indestructible arrowheads and make new arrows for normal cost (or cast Mending on them), makes a case for using real adamantine rather than blanches.

[blackbloodtroll]

Adamantine Durable Arrows are my favorite.

Rough and Ready trait, or Catch Off Guard feat, and you are the only one with a reusable Adamantine weapon at first level.

[Jiggy]

Renvale987 wrote:

It just seems like you're gaming the system.

Just by using an item? I'm pretty sure there has to be more than one moving part in order to be "gaming the system".

[Brian Darnell]

Because adamantine arrows work well against creatures with hardness like animated objects. When fighting an animated object with Hardness 15, I can understand why adamantine arrows would be worthwhile to keep around. Weapon blanch only works on DR, so it isn't too unbalancing.

[mplindustries]

Yeah, Durable Adamantine Arrows are 61gp each, and never break. If you get 10 of those for 610gp, you're better off than you would be once you've bought 6 blanches.

[Z...D...]

My archer carries, 10 WB adamantine arrows, and 10 durable adamntine arrows. As well as 20 cold iron arrows, 10 Ghost Salt WB, 20 Blunt, 10 Silver WB arrows. And a few Bane arrows here and there...

[daimaru]

90 arrows of 6 different kinds? I think if I were the DM I'd rule that you got confused once in a while. Just because. :)

[Nefreet]

Z...D... wrote:

My archer carries, 10 WB adamantine arrows, and 10 durable adamntine arrows. As well as 20 cold iron arrows, 10 Ghost Salt WB, 20 Blunt, 10 Silver WB arrows. And a few Bane arrows here and there...

Ok, I have to ask: how did you find this thread? And what made you want to necro it? It's almost 2 years old =\

[BretI]

daimaru wrote:

90 arrows of 6 different kinds? I think if I were the DM I'd rule that you got confused once in a while. Just because. :)

Does the wizard get confused with all the different spells they carry?

Segregate the ammo, have a fixed location it belongs in. Keep the gnome and any other jokers away from your gear -- can't have them mixing up the ammo.

Seems reasonable to me.

[daimaru]

OK, 6 separate quivers and a pack llama. Being an archer (real life) I have trouble with the bulk 90 arrows would take up all by themselves. I do realize this is a game, not real, but 90?

[Akerlof]

I know it's necromancy, but... (I didn't start it!~ :P )

Renvale987 wrote:

It just seems like you're gaming the system. You're getting adamantine ammunition for a fraction of the price. As a player, I would never buy adamantine arrows, I would just always blanch them, its cheaper. I'm never going to use my arrows to break down a door something stupid like that.

For 3,000 gp I can get an Adamantine falchion at level 6 that will last me the next 14 levels no matter how much fighting there is.

For 3,000 gp I can get 50 adamantine arrows that last me... 10 rounds at level 6 if I have haste: 2 (many shot) + 1 (rapid shot) +1 (haste) +1 (iterative) 12.5 if I don't.

Adamantine Blanch lets me extend that 3,000gp out to 60 rounds.

3,000 gp for 14 levels verses 3,000 gp, almost 20% of a 6th level character's wealth by level, for 10 rounds? Who's gaming the system again? 30 adamantine weapon blanches will probably cover a character for their entire career, honestly. So it's most likely pretty balanced.

daimaru wrote:

OK, 6 separate quivers and a pack llama. Being an archer (real life) I have trouble with the bulk 90 arrows would take up all by themselves. I do realize this is a game, not real, but 90?

1.) Don't bring real life experience into the game. The rules mechanics aren't meant to simulate real life, they're an abstraction meant to make for an enjoyable experience. You don't say a road map is unbelievable because there aren't any lines on the ground between states, and the map doesn't show that tree over there, do you? The game is an abstraction, just like the map. If you try to compare either one to reality, you get weird results.

2.) Magic is a thing. Efficient Quivers and Handy Haversacks mean you most certainly do get exactly the arrow you need without any muss or fuss, and you can fit 90 arrows into a very small space.

3.) Look at my numbers again: 5 arrows a round is not hard at all to do. 90 arrows means 18 rounds of combat. That really isn't much if you're not in a position to restock. Also, he's got those 90 distributed between a lot of different types of arrows. I'd actually say his loadout is dangerously low if he's 6th level or higher, he's going to be dipping into expensive blanched arrows pretty quickly.

[daimaru]

Kinda sorta. If the rules don't cover it, real life is a better fallback than "anything goes"; and more fun too. And the map comparison is a straw man, it doesn't really apply.

Efficient quivers certainly do make a difference. They allow either 60 or 84 arrows, depending on your DM. This does beg the questions, can you put arrows in the javelin and bow sections? How many?

I'd certainly be willing to agree to two efficient quivers too, or one and one or two 20 arrow quivers.

[Akerlof]

daimaru wrote:

Kinda sorta. If the rules don't cover it, real life is a better fallback than "anything goes"; and more fun too. And the map comparison is a straw man, it doesn't really apply.

No, the map comparison is not a straw man, it's key.

Just like a street map, the rules of the game are an abstraction, a simplification. They're written the way they are for a very practical purpose: To provide the framework and physics within which the game exists, and they intentionally do so at an abstraction from reality because reality makes a pretty sucky game.

Also, since we have references to some things in reality but not others, trying to make judgment calls based on our experience with reality penalizes those who don't use impossible mechanics: 90 arrows is too much for you, but the Wizard can turn a 50 foot flying dragon into dust with a phrase and gesture. That's REALLY unfair to the guy with the arrows, especially when you're using the rules that allow him to go through those arrows like machine gun bullets.

Make rulings based on the game's rules. They're abstractions, but just like the abstractions on a road map, they're very useful for the purpose they serve. That keeps the game internally consistent without impacting the story it tells, and doesn't negatively impact someone playing a character who is doing something that is within your area of experience while giving a character who is doing something completely impossible a free pass.

The question isn't "can I believe this?" The question is "how does this impact the mechanics of the game?"

[Claxon]

daimaru wrote:

90 arrows of 6 different kinds? I think if I were the DM I'd rule that you got confused once in a while. Just because. :)

That's why all the cool kids bought an efficient quiver by level 5.

Also, I find that picking up clustered shots kind of makes any type of DR irrelevant to me. Though I did pickup up a few silver and cold iron arrows before I got the feat. Now, I just don't even worry about it.

[kinevon]

daimaru wrote:

OK, 6 separate quivers and a pack llama. Being an archer (real life) I have trouble with the bulk 90 arrows would take up all by themselves. I do realize this is a game, not real, but 90?

Two Efficient Quivers, and you have room for at least 30 more arrows. And the quiver gives you exactly the arrow you want, when you want it.

Add a bag of holding, to hold a supply of arrows to restock your quivers, and you are set.

Of course, my archer tends to set his base arrow, once he can afford it, as cold iron arrows, weapon blanched silver, with the rest for when cold iron and silver don't bypass the DR to begin with.

Don't forget a few blunt arrows, for use either against things like skeletons, and to use for non-lethal attacks, when you need to capture the target.

[Lifat]

Claxon wrote:

daimaru wrote:

90 arrows of 6 different kinds? I think if I were the DM I'd rule that you got confused once in a while. Just because. :)

That's why all the cool kids bought an efficient quiver by level 5.

Also, I find that picking up clustered shots kind of makes any type of DR irrelevant to me. Though I did pickup up a few silver and cold iron arrows before I got the feat. Now, I just don't even worry about it.

By level 6 your standard arrows should be cold iron because the increase in cost is so low. When I'm an archer in a standard equipment game I have cold iron arrows as standard from lvl 2 or 3 at most.

[Wheldrake]

[rant on]Weapon blanch is an ill-conceived item that relies on a cheesy mechanic. It's a real pity it made it into any PF product. Just look at how overwhelmingly popular they are in PFS games. They are the poor man's way of overcoming damage reduction... as long as you're meticulously a*** retentive enough to keep track of buying it and applying it at an opportune time.

Weapon blanch is also far too cheap for what it does. And the ramifications for its use with missile weapons isn't even considered. Does it take a full round to prepare each of 50 arrows? Do you keep track of the 1/50th of a dose you just used to prepare one arrow? Not to mention the notion that after applying it in one round over an open flame, shouldn't you have to wait a bit for it to dry or cool down before using it? And what about treating both sides of the blade? And wouldn't it take a bigger dose for a greatsword than for a dagger?

I guess you can tell it just feels like a stupid item to me. Advantageous, certainly. Far *too* advantageous for its price, wouldn't you say?[/end rant]

This said, and since this item does exist in PF, let me chime in and say yes, it's very cheap, and yes, the player in question can go ahead and buy adamantine weapon blanch, all he wants, from the nearest Alchemy-R-Us, and yes, it's pure cheese, but as the DM you gotta eat it and like it. <g>

Good catch on recovering spent adamantine arrowheads and re-attaching them to new arrows, BTW.

[Bronnwynn]

Weapons blanch makes perfect sense and doesn't strike me (a non-pfs player) as horribly overpowered... but on arrows, I'd say no more than one at a time, for the very reason of needing to flip the blade and heat it vaguely evenly for it to work.

[Silbeg]

Which is fine, because blanches don't wear out until used.
Also, at higher levels they tend to become superfluous (except maybe for adamantine and ghost salt) when the archer has a +3 or higher bow.

I personally don't have a problem with it... They tend to make arches go through even more cash! ;)

[DesolateHarmony]

Only 10 items of ammunition per dose. So, the cost is a little higher. 20gp per arrow for ghost salt weapon blanch.

[Lifat]

Weapon blanches really are very cheap for ammunition compared to buying arrows of the various materials. Only exception is cold iron which is stupidly expensive for ammunition.
I'd gladly forgo the added functionality of adamantine arrows vs. weapon blanch adamantine arrows simply for the price reduction (50 gp per arrow)...
Ghost salt is the type of weapon blanch you really shouldn't be without, because it effectively doubles your damage (or in case you have no magical weapons, enables you to do damage at all).