Dispute between Paladin .Cleric and Witch.

[blue_the_wolf]

The cleric is a servant of the church. the paladin is a direct servent of the god.

in other words I think paladins word wins over the cleric.

[The Crusader]

sowhereaminow wrote:

And an interesting thought - the paladin would probably be the best judge as to whether the child was evil or not (at least currently). Built in Detect Evil ability kind of helps there. I wonder if this figured into his judgment?

Unless the child has more than 5 hit dice, the Paladin can not determine anything with detect evil. Plus, I think the general conclusion is that a child is never really evil by nature.

Adding a cohort to a group is something everyone should really be ok with before you commit to it. It affects the entire group and the DM. It is especially significant in a large group, where each player's portion of the limelight is already diminished in some ways.

The actual decision, in game, should take account of how the players are feeling, as well as how their characters might react. Raised by the witch, or cloistered by the temple, are two reasonable options depending on whether the group as a whole wants to commit to the inclusion of a cohort.

[KHShadowrunner]

When was it lawful for a person (or group) to kill the mother of a child and then keep the child as a prize?

Yeah, there. I twisted it.

:)

No really, both sides are doing a very good job. And it's a hotly debated topic! I think it should play out. Return to town and let's hear the courts decision.

I take the side of the Cleric.

Firstly, I really really want to hear how this was DM'd. No shortcuts. I find it -amazingly- interesting that almost 2/3rds of the party's first impression was what fascinating way they should slaughter the child. I mean, if it was described as finding the child clinging onto her mother's books and chanting something the mother was saying, which was a poor translation of one of her abilities. Then she's already tainted (maybe not!) and that makes more sense. If it really was completely disconnected, then your party has a very interesting way of leaving no witnesses.

But more importantly, if the party is fighting hags and their kin, I don't see how a witch would have the time and proper care to care for a child. Exposing someone so young to the fields of battle and constant fear sounds... dangerous.

Under care she should go. And the cleric was the only one who came up with an idea that didn't put her life in danger (in theory! who knows!). So I'd side with it.

[blue_the_wolf]

people in pathfinder tend to have extreme views of the alignment of others while very forgiving views of their own alignment.

basically anything with an evil alignment can be slaughtered with no consequent because its evil and thats the only justification needed. but anything they do should be justified as ultimately good because they are the heros and should not be hindered in their fun by questions of morality.

its the primary reason for 90% of the paladin alignment debates.

[Midnight_Angel]

sowhereaminow wrote:

The paladin would probably be the best judge as to whether the child was evil or not (at least currently). Built in Detect Evil ability kind of helps there.

Umm... won't work.

Detect evil won't usually give a reading if the target is below 5 HD.

This having been said, I'd cheer for the witch's idea.
Yes, he is exposing the girl to the risks adventuring brings with itself.
Then again, the whole affair makes a base for very interesting stories... and frankly, I don't dig the people that tend to state "It's heroic! It's magic! Screw your puny realism" at every opportunity... only to pull the "It's unrealistic! Protect the children!" card in this case.

[KHShadowrunner]

Alignment is always such a hairy situation.

For example:

Say the witch does take the child. Would it be lawful and good to take a child out to the field of battle? Most likely not, so is it lawful and good to leave a child alone in goodness knows where (say the woodlands or a bog) while you run off to do your own thing?

If you opt to have a home in town, is the witch actually living up to her word? If she is, is it lawful and/or good to pull the witch away from her (now) child for possibly weeks to months at a time in the name of something? Or would it be the right thing to leave the witch alone and not allow for her to take part?

If you leave a tie between the BBEG and the party, you now expose a possible situation where the child's life is in danger of kidnap from the PCs. Is this the best care for the child?

Is the nunnary actually going to take care of the child?
Will the courts be fair?

I love these good stories. They always leave you open and guessing.

[Dragonamedrake]

Coming from a real world example. I am in the Military. We deploy 6 months to a year regularly...

Does that make Military unfit to raise children? We leave them with Wifes/Husbands, Relatives, or a Nanny. I see no reason why the Witch cant do the same. I dare say it would be easier as most adventures dont last 6 months to a year in game.

[Degoon Squad]

Want to thank everyone for their Answer
Lloyd Webster above pretty much sums up the parties members attitude.
As for living condition the Paladin has a small Holding on the frontier ( We use the Pazio Stockade with a few added features) and is Lord of the nearby village. The other characters live with Paladin or in the village When not out solving local problem. The Church Decide to let the Witch keep the child , but will check in on a regular basis to make sure things are going well.
the Witch's mentor( A crotchety old woman of unknown age with a +5 vorpal tongue) will watch the child and teach her when the Witch is out adventuring.

[KHShadowrunner]

Dragonamedrake wrote:

Coming from a real world example. I am in the Military. We deploy 6 months to a year regularly...

Does that make Military unfit to raise children? We leave them with Wifes/Husbands, Relatives, or a Nanny. I see no reason why the Witch cant do the same. I dare say it would be easier as most adventures dont last 6 months to a year in game.

I would never make real life references. No. Of course I do not think that. Are you implying that your child was the spawn of an evil hag that you yourself slayed?

I don't even like asking that. I'll continue to stay away from real life.

Does the witch have a husband/relative to leave the child with?

Are they prepared to handle a child that is NOT their own?

What if it makes them want their own?

In the event that they are not, would you take the witch away? Or would you risk waiting however long?

Would you trust them in an school-like system?

Adventures don't take 6 months to a year, sometimes. Sometimes they do. Sometimes they cause fame/infamy (a lot more often than IRL).

I'm just saying that there's a LOT to consider, and that the cleric offers and option that leads to the most steady and safe path. It's not like they couldn't visit the child IN the nunnary. Or maybe I don't understand the nunnary.

[Nicos]

I would say let the cleric make the formal complaint, then make the cleric and the paladin say her point of views in front a Council of Sages, the DM will tell what is the soluton accepted by the cruhc (it shoudl be the with solution).

[Harrison]

Degoon Squad wrote:

Want to thank everyone for their Answer

Lloyd Webster above pretty much sums up the parties members attitude.
As for living condition the Paladin has a small Holding on the frontier ( We use the Pazio Stockade with a few added features) and is Lord of the nearby village. The other characters live with Paladin or in the village When not out solving local problem. The Church Decide to let the Witch keep the child , but will check in on a regular basis to make sure things are going well.
the Witch's mentor( A crotchety old woman of unknown age with a +5 vorpal tongue) will watch the child and teach her when the Witch is out adventuring.

Thanks for the update! Glad the situation was resolved without too much problem.

[Lloyd Jackson]

Degoon Squad wrote:

Want to thank everyone for their Answer

Lloyd Webster above pretty much sums up the parties members attitude.
As for living condition the Paladin has a small Holding on the frontier ( We use the Pazio Stockade with a few added features) and is Lord of the nearby village. The other characters live with Paladin or in the village When not out solving local problem. The Church Decide to let the Witch keep the child , but will check in on a regular basis to make sure things are going well.
the Witch's mentor( A crotchety old woman of unknown age with a +5 vorpal tongue) will watch the child and teach her when the Witch is out adventuring.

Thanks, and thank you for updating us.

[Weirdo]

Degoon Squad wrote:

Want to thank everyone for their Answer

Lloyd Webster above pretty much sums up the parties members attitude.
As for living condition the Paladin has a small Holding on the frontier ( We use the Pazio Stockade with a few added features) and is Lord of the nearby village. The other characters live with Paladin or in the village When not out solving local problem. The Church Decide to let the Witch keep the child , but will check in on a regular basis to make sure things are going well.
the Witch's mentor( A crotchety old woman of unknown age with a +5 vorpal tongue) will watch the child and teach her when the Witch is out adventuring.

Again, thanks for the update. Sounds like a reasonable solution to me. I also feel a lot more sympathetic towards the cleric if his reasoning was as Lloyd Webster suggests "the church is best suited to care for and instruct her" rather than "the church is best suited to control her." I'd like to comment on two points a while back, though.

The Oddity wrote:

It's one thing to feel immediately protective of an orphaned child you just met. That's not the same thing as "I am go to raise this child as my own". I think it's a trope that a hero takes an orphan under their wing out of a sense of obligation and then grows fond of them and decides to become a surrogate parent. What I don't think is a trope is that the hero helps kill the bad guy then at the drop of their hat decides to take the bad guy's kid and raise her as their own, accompanied by the other murders of her parent, half of whom want to kill her or sell her into slavery. That's not hero territory, that's creepy serial killer territory.

The presence of the other group members is actually what would most worry me about the situation, unless they really were confused about what a Changeling is.

Knight Magenta wrote:

Two thoughts:

1) When DMing, I try to keep in mind that PF is about cooperative storytelling. That is, If the cleric says "The church would be against this!" It is sort of a dick move to have the church disagree with him (unless he is super off base) because the character presumably knows his own church.

This is actually a solid point. If under similar circumstances the DM thought the church ought to agree with the Paladin, it might be appropriate for the decision to be phrased as "In most circumstances it is church policy to take custody of such orphans. However, in this case..."