So my group found the Gloves of Dueling, arguably a must for, well, every single fighter. Ever. But a RAW reading of the gloves does not allow their bonus to apply to fighter archetypes.
Any thoughts on this? Do you guys generally allow it? Disallow it? Never noticed it before? Just play summoners?
Polearm Training (Ex): At 5th level, a polearm master gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with spears and polearms. The bonus increases by +1 for every four levels beyond 5th. This ability replaces weapon training 1.
Singleton (Ex): At 5th level, a free hand fighter gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls when wielding a melee weapon in one hand and leaving his other hand free. This bonus increases by +1 per six levels after 5th. This ability replaces weapon training 1 and 4.
Crossbow Expert (Ex): At 5th level, a crossbowman gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with crossbows. This bonus increases by +1 per four levels after 5th. This ability replaces weapon training 1.
Aura faint transmutation; CL 5th
Slot hands; Price 15,000 gp; Weight —
Description
These supple leather gloves grant the wearer gains a +4 bonus to his CMD against disarm attacks, attempts to sunder his wielded weapons, and effects that cause him to lose his grip on his weapons (such as grease). The wearer doesn't drop held weapons when panicked or stunned. If the wearer has the weapon training class feature and is using an appropriate weapon, his weapon training bonus increases by +2.
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Strictly speaking, no. Also strictly speaking, if a non-fighter class came out that gained the Weapon Training class feature (sort of like how some non-rogues get Sneak Attack, some non-rangers can get Favored Terrain, etc), then the gloves would work for them.
But seeing as this thread is in the Advice forum, I say let it work. :)
We rule that the "replaces Weapon training" that might as well have been a forced Weapon Training pick work with Gloves of Dueling.
I believe there was one other case where this also applied, a prerequisite I believe.
But seeing as this thread is in the Advice forum, I say let it work. :)
Ha, you got to the meat of it. I know the RAW reading of it, which is pretty clear. I am, as you insinuated, interested in hearing lots of people's opinions on whether or not they allow it to work in their games. "Houserule" it to work could be applied, I suppose, but I'd think of it more as a loose interpretation rather than anything else. RAI as opposed to RAW.
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My advice to your GM would be to swap the item out for something else, as they are extremely under-priced for their effect (assuming that effect should exist at all).
As for whether they should work for the archetypes, I agree with Xethik, though it wouldn't be RAW.
There are fighter archetypes who keep weapon training: Two-handed fighter (weapon training only with two handed weapons), the Lore Warden (just keeping it), Corsair (with a new weapon group), Aldori Swordlord (starts at level 9) or the dragoon (Spear Training: "must take weapon training" with the spear group). Maybe there are even more.
Currently, I would not allow dueling gloves for fighter archetypes without weapon training, because I see nothing in the rules to support that. All the archetypes that have a variant weapon training ability, but where the describing text still clearly says that it is weapon training, are allowed to use the full benefits of the gloves.
I don't think they are a patch, they remind me of the paladins silver smite bracelet, the ranger spell instant enemy and so forth.
Don't forget: the gloves are not only useful if you have the weapon training ability:
"These supple gloves grant the wearer a +4 bonus to her CMD against disarm attacks, attempts to sunder her wielded weapons, and effects that cause her to lose her grip on her weapons (such as grease). The wearer doesn’t drop held weapons when panicked or stunned."
If the ability works like Weapon Training, but the weapon is picked for you (Polearm Training, Crossbow Expert), I'd say go for it and let the gloves still work as normal
If the ability works like Weapon Training, but does NOT restrict your weapon choice (Singleton, Leaping Attack), then I'd say that the gloves would not work.
It's not necessarily RAI - it's entirely possible that losing out on items like that is fully intended to be part of the cost of taking an archetype. We don't really know.
That's a fair point.
But in any case, I imagine the GM put the gloves among the loot for a reason, right?
I am the GM, and the player making a character is trying to decide whether the archetype is worth it. Whether or not the gloves of dueling that he intends to eventually have made will work or not is the feather that will push him in either direction.
My advice to your GM would be to swap the item out for something else, as they are extremely under-priced for their effect (assuming that effect should exist at all).
Really? Why on earth would you say that? These are, far and away, the best item for the glove slot for most fighters. I can't think of anything else that would be even comparable except for in specific cases (such as gloves of rust).
Great thoughts so far, everyone... thanks for the input so far. Any other thoughts on this subject? :)
I could see the argument for not allowing Singleton/Leaping Attack to add damage to Gloves of Dueling if you want to house rule things, but I think you should go by a case by case.
Are they doing MORE than enough damage already? Eh, they don't need the gloves. Let them get gloves that do something very cool but very different.
Is the polearm fighter barely keeping up? Let 'em use the gloves!
I give items out like this, anyways. The guy who isn't dealing that much damage might get a nice magic weapon while the guy with more than enough might get gloves that let him see through walls, or something along those lines.
If you want to be a bit more strict, cut, and dry about it, Harrion's approach works well, though.
Are they doing MORE than enough damage already? Eh, they don't need the gloves. Let them get gloves that do something very cool but very different.
That's really... arbitrary. While I don't generally mind being arbitrary (in fact, I really am in a lot of cases that would take a while to go into... heh), that's arbitrary between players, and that's a little harder. I'd have a harder time justifying to myself (and to my players) why one players gets more preference over another because he's, well, more dumb at building than the second.
Also, the players can craft items. Don't matter what I give 'em.
I understand it is very arbitrary, but it's also my opinion. =P
And obviously, it really depends on your group. If your group is very likely to optimize around whatever concept that are playing (or optimize and make a concept later), it might not work out as well. And yeah, if you give one player the: "Yeah, use Gloves" treatment, it's very hard to not give it to every player, present or future and could create a lot of issues.
But if the character is lagging extremely far behind in terms of DPR, then I would have no doubt in my mind about letting them use these. If they are doing well, but not the guy who does just about everything in combat, I'd probably go with Harrison's suggestion. If they are this unstoppable force and smashing their way through encounters and the rest of the party feels like combat is boring for them because of it, I'd probably tell the guy no because he is already the combat powerhouse.
It seems that you are more playing the kind of game where building your character optimally is part of the challenge of playing. There's nothing wrong with that, and I love playing like that, but I shy from it when DMing. In this case, I'd likely go with Harrison, again. If a player is really set on playing a Mobile Fighter and isn't doing so hot with it due to it flat-out being a poor archetype (which may or may not be true), then maybe make an exception (I think this is just me being too nice as a DM, heh).
Again, this is just my opinion. I'm not saying not playing it like this is wrong or anything. I hope I come off correctly.
Oh, and as per crafting: Well, yeah. Crafting does mean they can get whatever they want item wise. But to alleviate costs, I generally try to see who needs some magic items the most and I'll throw in something special for them (for example, I had a Sorc/Paladin/Dragon Disciple that was having trouble making his Sorc powers worthwhile, so I threw him a Robes of the Arcane Heritage in loot at 6th level to give him a hand). Only really works at the earlier levels, though. And it really depends how common magic items are in your campaign, too.
Well stated. Sorry if my earlier response came off as insulting. I was more surprised than anything. If my players caught wind of the fact that I was being... preferential... hoo boy. Well, let's just say that would be bad. ;)
I like all your points, though, really, so thank you for that. :)
Oh, no, you didn't. I'm just running on no sleep and I'm getting quite repetitive. Good for filling up college essays, not for getting things done.
Haha, but still, it would be nice to see some additional thoughts here on how they would handle it. Not RAW or RAI, per se, but DM opinions.
EDIT: What is funny now that I think about it. If anything, I tend to get preferential towards characters, not the players behind them. If a character is really fleshing out as great, I feel that I shower them with too many goodies and spotlights. Something I should work on. Also unrelated.
You may notice that none of those things up there replace ALL the Weapon Training features.
Polearm Training (Ex): At 5th level, a polearm master gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with spears and polearms. The bonus increases by +1 for every four levels beyond 5th. This ability replaces weapon training 1.
Singleton (Ex): At 5th level, a free hand fighter gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls when wielding a melee weapon in one hand and leaving his other hand free. This bonus increases by +1 per six levels after 5th. This ability replaces weapon training 1 and 4.
Crossbow Expert (Ex): At 5th level, a crossbowman gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with crossbows. This bonus increases by +1 per four levels after 5th. This ability replaces weapon training 1.
Unless it replaced 'Weapon Training 1, 2, 3, and 4" they still have the "Weapon Training Class Feature", just not starting at level 5. So after level 9 they'd have it.
You bring up a good point, Rynjin. Polearm Masters, however, do replace the other weapon trainings. Pretty much, they get one weapon training and it is in Polearms. In this case, I'd allow it. The strength increases as if they were getting the other weapon trainings but they don't get the option to specialize in other weapons. For this reason, I'd personally allow it.
Singleton is iffy because it is very general.
Crossbow Expert is in line with Polearm Training.
While these abilities don't replace all Weapon Trainings, the archetypes do. Otherwise, you could get Crossbow Expert and Weapon Training - Crossbow Expert for even higher damage with the weapon. Some archetypes delay weapon training. These work with the gloves, just have to wait for a higher level.
Archetype: If an archetype replaces a class ability with a more specific version of that ability (or one that works similarly to the replaced ability), does the archetype's ability count as the original ability for the purpose of rules that improve the original ability?
It depends on how the archetype's ability is worded. If the archetype ability says it works like the standard ability, it counts as that ability. If the archetype's ability requires you to make a specific choice for the standard ability, it counts as that ability. Otherwise, the archetype ability doesn't count as the standard ability. (It doesn't matter if the archetype's ability name is different than the standard class ability it is replacing; it is the description and game mechanics of the archetype ability that matter.)
Example: The dragoon (fighter) archetype (Ultimate Combat) has an ability called "spear training," which requires the dragoon to select "spears" as his weapon training group, and refers to his weapon training bonus (even though this bonus follows a slightly different progression than standard weapon training). Therefore, this ability counts as weapon training for abilities that improve weapon training, such as gloves of dueling (Advanced Player's Guide), which increase the wearer's weapon training bonus.
Example: The archer (fighter) archetype gets several abilities (such as "expert archer") which replace weapon training and do not otherwise refer to the weapon training ability. Therefore, this ability does not count as weapon training for abilities that improve weapon training (such as gloves of dueling). This is the case even for the "expert archer," ability which has a bonus that improves every 4 fighter levels, exactly like weapon training.
Archetype: If an archetype replaces a class ability with a more specific version of that ability (or one that works similarly to the replaced ability), does the archetype's ability count as the original ability for the purpose of rules that improve the original ability?
It depends on how the archetype's ability is worded. If the archetype ability says it works like the standard ability, it counts as that ability. If the archetype's ability requires you to make a specific choice for the standard ability, it counts as that ability. Otherwise, the archetype ability doesn't count as the standard ability. (It doesn't matter if the archetype's ability name is different than the standard class ability it is replacing; it is the description and game mechanics of the archetype ability that matter.)
Example: The dragoon (fighter) archetype (Ultimate Combat) has an ability called "spear training," which requires the dragoon to select "spears" as his weapon training group, and refers to his weapon training bonus (even though this bonus follows a slightly different progression than standard weapon training). Therefore, this ability counts as weapon training for abilities that improve weapon training, such as gloves of dueling (Advanced Player's Guide), which increase the wearer's weapon training bonus.
Example: The archer (fighter) archetype gets several abilities (such as "expert archer") which replace weapon training and do not otherwise refer to the weapon training ability. Therefore, this ability does not count as weapon training for abilities that improve weapon training (such as gloves of dueling). This is the case even for the "expert archer," ability which has a bonus that improves every 4 fighter levels, exactly like weapon training.
In the case of the Two Weapon Fighter, we fall in the second case? The ability
Twin Blades (Ex)
At 5th level, a two-weapon warrior gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls when making a full-attack with two weapons or a double weapon. This bonus increases by +1 for every four levels after 5th.
This ability replaces Weapon Training 1.
seems to make it fall in the latter. (It's already kinda hard to keep up doing full round attacks in order to get the bonuses, but i fear the gloves doesn't work fully here).
I agree Garlak - there is no reference at all to weapon training other than it being the ability replaced.
There are several items at the 15000gp to 16000gp price range that grant the "treat one class feature of a class as if 4 levels higher" effect... On the other hand, weapon training’s effect increases by one every 4 levels, so by granting a plus 2 bonus to weapon training, gloves of dueling is effectively granting a "treat one class feature of a class as if 8 levels higher" effect for the same price as others.
So this item is clearly underpriced, to make it price fairly it should only grant a +1 bonus (4 levels higher) instead of +2.
Agreed. Or cost 60000+ gp.
Side Question: