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I was curious, how the community deals with rolling your confirmed critical hit. Do you roll your base damage as normal then multiply the damage or do you multiply the base number of dice. (ex) if you are using a lonsword and confirm a crit, do you roll 2d8 then add your static bonus to it or do you roll 1d8 then multiply what you roll then add your static bonus to it.
I have always preferred to multiply what I roll. thats just how I have always done it.
I tend to roll twice, though it should be noted that you add the static damage bonus BEFORE you multiply. So your 1d8+4 crit would be doing 2d8+8 (instead of the 2d8+4 the OP seems to imply).
sorry, that was a late night mistake. I guess I had a bit of a brain fart and forgot how it worked.
Meh, no problem. Just felt I should mention it so some poor newb doesn't stumble over here and get confused on how crits work. :)
I like the RAW version of rolling damage multiple times better because it lessens the chance to waste a crit on minimum damage or be killed by a maxed enemy crit.
But the ppl I game with most of the time do it the old school way. *sad face* I adressed it once, some were surprised that the rules should be as I told them and the topic was dropped.
I was curious, how the community deals with rolling your confirmed critical hit. Do you roll your base damage as normal then multiply the damage or do you multiply the base number of dice. (ex) if you are using a lonsword and confirm a crit, do you roll 2d8 then add your static bonus to it or do you roll 1d8 then multiply what you roll then add your static bonus to it.
Like it has always said to. If it's 2d6+3 then you roll 4d6+3. Otherwise you get into some fairly bizarre and poor mathematical mechanics, where there are only X possible damages that can occur in a far more limited fashion.
For example, if we are striking with a longsword and critically hit, we generate a number between 2-16, including odd numbers (3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, and 15) because of the different ways the dice may land.
If we roll 1d8 and then multiply the result by x2, then the only numbers we can generate are 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, and 16. It also makes it far more likely that critical hits will either be pathetic or insane, because it drastically changes the % chance of extreme results in either direction.
1d8 has a 1/8 chance of dealing 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, or 8 damage. If we merely double this, a longsword critical hit has a 1/8 chance of dealing 2 damage and a 1/8 chance of dealing 16 damage. If we use that same longsword but instead roll 2d8 as we are supposed to, we get an average of 9 damage on critical hits with more extreme amounts becoming increasingly rarer in % chance, with a result of 2 or 16 occurring very infrequently.
There are mechanical reasons to follow the rules in this case.
EDIT: Additionally, you do not roll all damage dice and then apply static modifiers. Static modifiers are multiplied as well. As noted, 2d6+3 becomes 4d6+6. All instances of base damage dice plus static modifiers to damage (but not bonus dice such as from Sneak Attack, Vital Strike, or merciful) are rolled again.
Roll, then add multiplier.
Though seeing what Ashiel wrote, I might houserule that.
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Roll, then add multiplier.
Though seeing what Ashiel wrote, I might houserule that.
It's not a house rule. In 3.0, 3.5, and Pathfinder you actually roll it just as I described in my post. Those who learned to roll it differently were generally taught improperly by people who assumed instead of reading or were using house rules themselves.
Critical: The entry in this column notes how the weapon is used with the rules for critical hits. When your character scores a critical hit, roll the damage two, three, or four times, as indicated by its critical multiplier (using all applicable modifiers on each roll), and add all the results together.
Multiplying Damage: Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results.
Note: When you multiply damage more than once, each multiplier works off the original, unmultiplied damage. So if you are asked to double the damage twice, the end result is three times the normal damage.
Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon's normal damage are never multiplied.
Critical Hits: When you make an attack roll and get a natural 20 (the d20 shows 20), you hit regardless of your target's Armor Class, and you have scored a “threat,” meaning the hit might be a critical hit (or “crit”). To find out if it's a critical hit, you immediately make an attempt to “confirm” the critical hit—another attack roll with all the same modifiers as the attack roll you just made. If the confirmation roll also results in a hit against the target's AC, your original hit is a critical hit. (The critical roll just needs to hit to give you a crit, it doesn't need to come up 20 again.) If the confirmation roll is a miss, then your hit is just a regular hit.
A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together. Unless otherwise specified, the threat range for a critical hit on an attack roll is 20, and the multiplier is ×2.
Exception: Precision damage (such as from a rogue's sneak attack class feature) and additional damage dice from special weapon qualities (such as flaming) are not multiplied when you score a critical hit.
Increased Threat Range: Sometimes your threat range is greater than 20. That is, you can score a threat on a lower number. In such cases, a roll of lower than 20 is not an automatic hit. Any attack roll that doesn't result in a hit is not a threat.
Increased Critical Multiplier: Some weapons deal better than double damage on a critical hit (see Equipment).
Spells and Critical Hits: A spell that requires an attack roll can score a critical hit. A spell attack that requires no attack roll cannot score a critical hit. If a spell causes ability damage or drain (see Special Abilities), the damage or drain is doubled on a critical hit.
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So I had been doing it wrong all along?!
*Insert dramatic cry of pure anguish here*
Back in 3.0 (with using the roll then multiply version) we had one fight where we were fighting some gnolls with greataxes we were rather low level (1 or 2) and two of us were onehit killed because the gm critted and once rolled a 12 and the other time a 10, adding bonuses and multiplying by 3.
By rolling 3d10 the chance to one-shot a pc would have been much less.
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Johnico said it succinctly, Ashiel said it with much rules back up. Crits by raw are rolling a multiple of the original set of dice adding in all modifiers. This is one of the reasons just about any of the melee types in my groups hem and haw between the greatsword or the greataxe at character creation. One crits more often, but only does x2, the other only crits on that 20 roll, but then you get to roll 3d12+(3x (1.5xSTR mod)).
I also wanted to mention that my group has adopted a houserule for crits that my players absolutely love.
If a critical is rolled, but not confirmed, the attack does maximum damage. Example: the half-orc barbarian with the greataxe rolls a 20, but then rolls a 2, so the crit isn't confirmed, then he does 19 damage, 12(maximum possible roll of the dice) + 7 (1.5 STR Mod [assuming a STR score of 20]). Of course we always play what's good for the goose is good for the gander and all monsters and NPCs play by this same rule.
Yeah I grab the whole mess of dice and roll them, all bonuses to damge are multiplied appropriately and extra damage dice from precision or weapon abilities like bane are not multiplied but instead added on to the total.
The only time I can see just rolling the single damage and multiplying is in large groups. Like 7+ players.
I also wanted to mention that my group has adopted a houserule for crits that my players absolutely love.
If a critical is rolled, but not confirmed, the attack does maximum damage. Example: the half-orc barbarian with the greataxe rolls a 20, but then rolls a 2, so the crit isn't confirmed, then he does 19 damage, 12(maximum possible roll of the dice) + 7 (1.5 STR Mod [assuming a STR score of 20]). Of course we always play what's good for the goose is good for the gander and all monsters and NPCs play by this same rule.
Ooh, I like this. We already play with two 20s on a crit giving maximum damage, so this is a natural extension. I'll run this by my players, but I'll limit it to natural 20s only.
Roll as normal, multiply total by modifier.
We use the Crit Decks though, so our crits are just as often normal damage with some fun extra bonus as they are high-multiplier damage.
Roll once then multiply for us (though we use the critical deck too...)
Cheers
Mark
I want to get a Crit Deck...
Dang... I need $2...
I also wanted to mention that my group has adopted a houserule for crits that my players absolutely love.If a critical is rolled, but not confirmed, the attack does maximum damage. Example: the half-orc barbarian with the greataxe rolls a 20, but then rolls a 2, so the crit isn't confirmed, then he does 19 damage, 12(maximum possible roll of the dice) + 7 (1.5 STR Mod [assuming a STR score of 20]). Of course we always play what's good for the goose is good for the gander and all monsters and NPCs play by this same rule.
How would you handle a crit that is confirmed but negated by fortification or the like?
As a non crit or as a not confirmed crit?
I also wanted to mention that my group has adopted a houserule for crits that my players absolutely love.If a critical is rolled, but not confirmed, the attack does maximum damage. Example: the half-orc barbarian with the greataxe rolls a 20, but then rolls a 2, so the crit isn't confirmed, then he does 19 damage, 12(maximum possible roll of the dice) + 7 (1.5 STR Mod [assuming a STR score of 20]). Of course we always play what's good for the goose is good for the gander and all monsters and NPCs play by this same rule.
How would you handle a crit that is confirmed but negated by fortification or the like?
As a non crit or as a not confirmed crit?
My biggest reservation against that idea is that AC is also a form of critical resistance. It's already enough of a pain that no matter how awesome your defenses are an opponent can still hit you, but now they'd deal maximum damage. Really heavily favors weapons with high damage dice as well (greataxe/greatsword is 12 damage automatically).
My gut instinct tells me that it would unfairly punish characters who had gone through the trouble of trying to have good critical evasion. Especially since max-damage can be outright better than an average critical hit (the average damage on a greataxe is 6.5, so a critical has an average damage of 13 and strength x1.5, but maximum damage is nearly just as bad as a critical for 1st-6th level range).
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For crits I go old school in that a natural 20 is an automatic hit and a critical, and all crits are times 2. Then, I want a critical hit to do critical damage. Simply multiplying can result in very low damage: doubling a damage roll of 1 is a mere 2 points of damage. Instead I give a full regular damage result plus a regular roll on top of that. For instance if the normal damage would be a 1d8+2, critical damage would be 10 + (1d8+2), or 13-20 points of damage. That's serious critical damage for sure.
Huh... My group goes with:
Natural 20 is always a critical. The multiplied damage is auto-confirmed, but you have to roll to see if any secondary abilities (such as a Vorpal weapon or a critical feat) will also take effect.
We calculate it as (weapon damage + modifier)x(critical multiplier). It's faster than rolling multiple times.
Huh... My group goes with:
Natural 20 is always a critical. The multiplied damage is auto-confirmed, but you have to roll to see if any secondary abilities (such as a Vorpal weapon or a critical feat) will also take effect.
We calculate it as (weapon damage + modifier)x(critical multiplier). It's faster than rolling multiple times.
Well I've generally seen "roll multiple times" means "roll more dice" at the table. That might seem like a better idea to me since my group tends to have a good amount of extra dice on hand (it's no issue for us to roll 3d12s at once instead of 3 sets of 1d12 :P).
@Umbranus: Honestly we haven't had that come up yet. I would handle it as a non-crit. If a magic item, class feature, or feat is able to avoid critical hits, it would be avoided regardless of the roll. At least that's how I'd handle it.
@Ashiel: I hear you, but I'll counter with a few things. The first and foremost is the reason we adopted the rule. It is terribly disheartening to watch a 20 show up on a d20 attack roll, and then have it followed up by a 4. Going with the max damage rule lets a player enjoy that 20 they just rolled without it affecting things too terribly much. Secondly, I don't see a problem with rewarding a character that has the martial prowess to wield a greataxe or greatsword in combat effectively. They should be doing more damage, and when a 20 pops up on those fickle dice you want it to mean something other than just "my attack hits." I just can't stand to see a 20 come up on an attack roll, and not have it mean a little something more, perhaps that's just me. Thirdly, as I mentioned above, if a character, npc, monster has specific things that help them avoid critical hits, I wouldn't let the natural 20 still do max damage, because it is still a version of a critical hit. The way we've started talking about it at the table is a mini-crit. It's not a full on critical hit, but it's more than just a regular hit, which is just the way the gamers at my table think it should be.
I always did d8+3 becomes 2d8+3 until 3rd came out. For some reason I thought adding the static twice was overpowered. Seems crazy now. I prefer to roll once and multiply it, but my group prefers that I roll twice.
Well I've generally seen "roll multiple times" means "roll more dice" at the table. That might seem like a better idea to me since my group tends to have a good amount of extra dice on hand (it's no issue for us to roll 3d12s at once instead of 3 sets of 1d12 :P).Huh... My group goes with:
Natural 20 is always a critical. The multiplied damage is auto-confirmed, but you have to roll to see if any secondary abilities (such as a Vorpal weapon or a critical feat) will also take effect.
We calculate it as (weapon damage + modifier)x(critical multiplier). It's faster than rolling multiple times.
It's not so much about the number of dice. We probably have more dice than we'll ever need (The Rogue player and me are particullary guilty of bringing hoards of dice), it's just that (1d6+Str Bonus)x3 seems faster than adding 3d6+3x(Str Bonus).
Not that it's a huge difference. It's just how we are used to do it.
Unless you mean that you only multiply the base weapon damage, which feels rather weird for me.
Well I've generally seen "roll multiple times" means "roll more dice" at the table. That might seem like a better idea to me since my group tends to have a good amount of extra dice on hand (it's no issue for us to roll 3d12s at once instead of 3 sets of 1d12 :P).Huh... My group goes with:
Natural 20 is always a critical. The multiplied damage is auto-confirmed, but you have to roll to see if any secondary abilities (such as a Vorpal weapon or a critical feat) will also take effect.
We calculate it as (weapon damage + modifier)x(critical multiplier). It's faster than rolling multiple times.
It's not so much about the number of dice. We probably have more dice than we'll ever need (The Rogue player and me are particullary guilty of bringing hoards of dice), it's just that (1d6+Str Bonus)x3 seems faster than adding 3d6+3x(Str Bonus).
Not that it's a huge difference. It's just how we are used to do it.
Unless you mean that you only multiply the base weapon damage, which feels rather weird for me.
Nah, we totally multiply all static mods too. For example, if the orc critically hits with a greataxe (3d12) and has a +4 modifier (+12), then we roll 3d12+12. The result is something between 15-48.
In today's case, the orc rolls a 2, a 3, and a 12 for 17 + 12 = 29 damage. Beware the orcs sir. :P
I see. That's what I thought you meant, but I wasn't completely sure after reading your previous post.
Everyone in my groups can choose how they want to do it. Obviously they choose before they roll the dice. Most of them just roll multiple times, but I have two people that multiply. I have no real problem with them doing that.
By the rules + Crit Deck
I thought Strength modifiers weren't multiplied. Was that changed? I swear I remember reading in the Core rulebook that str bonuses were only added once....hmmm....
Any damage that isn't Precision and/or from a weapon property gets multiplied.