Question is in the title.
PF Elves don't actually sleep, they meditate, I remember this from going through the Second Darkness AP, but do they meditate only for the purpose of regaining spells? Im not certain, I dont have elves of Golarion, are you trying to have someone who is always up on guard? So you can never be surprised at night?
I'm not sure but your elf is scary close to that, anyone know more about the meditation thing? can they be surprised?
I would think an Elf Ranger could just kneel on a mat in full armor and weapons and be ready to go at any time, but how "aware" are they during meditation?
Become undead.
Become undead, play a nonspellcaster. Those are the first ones that come to mind
Become a plant.
PF Elves don't actually sleep, they meditate, I remember this from going through the Second Darkness AP, but do they meditate only for the purpose of regaining spells? Im not certain, I dont have elves of Golarion, are you trying to have someone who is always up on guard? So you can never be surprised at night?
I'm not sure but your elf is scary close to that, anyone know more about the meditation thing? can they be surprised?
I would think an Elf Ranger could just kneel on a mat in full armor and weapons and be ready to go at any time, but how "aware" are they during meditation?
PF elves do have to sleep. They are immune to magical sleep, but as humanoids of the elf subtype, they are still required to eat, breath, and sleep.
for the OP, play a non-native outsider.
there was quite a bit in second darkness about how they dont sleep, I just don't feel like going back in there to re read it all. Figured it was covered in elves supplement.
Please show me exactly what he pointed out.
Seems like one of those things that was stated early on in Golarion's creation, then retconned because the creators didn't like it.
there was quite a bit in second darkness about how they dont sleep, I just don't feel like going back in there to re read it all. Figured it was covered in elves supplement.
Elves needing sleep is one of the things that changed between 3.5 and Pathfinder, so yes there are references to them not needing sleep, but the majority if not all of them are from 3.5 materials.
Please show me exactly what he pointed out.
You can do a search on here and find that the rules for elves sleeping, but to sum things up: They have purposely omitted whether or not elves sleep as to leave the issue up to DM discression.
Lots of players are fond of the trance thing, others feel it's stupid/gimmicky. Thus, as another way of distinguishing things from WoTC's brand, they've left things up in the air. Even the ARG, the ficking race guide, omits mention of elves & sleeping beyond their resistance to sleep effects.
Ninja'd: So you don't even have to search lol.
Several forms of the Binding spell also take away the need for sleep.
Though that comes with other limitations.
Here's where I got it from:
elven Communities
When your players reach Crying Leaf, try to impress upon them how different it is from anywhere else they have visited thus far. As an entirely elven town, Crying Leaf has a number of oddities that you can play on to great effect. Try to keep the following points in mind.
• There are no beds in Crying Leaf, since the elves do not sleep. There are simple reed mats in nearly every home to facilitate their daily meditations
thats from the second darkness AP. in a side bar.
I/We have just gone with that ever since. It seems logical as well due to the immune to magical sleep thing, why would they be? "Because they don't sleep"
It was published by Paizo so it's "close enough to core"
Still curious what it says in the Elves of Golarion tho, that would be the "core core"
Fact of the matter is, there seems to be contradictions in print even from paizo/PFRPG.
So if I HAD to rule on it, I would defer to 1) what does it say in EoG? and if nothing definitive, revert to the second darkness AP because it is written about and In Golarion where these elves reside.
However what I quoted there is good, should be good enough for any GM (IMO) but yes it "could" be one of those famous PF ambiguities (ie play it how you like, I like 'elves dont sleep)
However, even IF elves don't sleep, it says they do meditate in that side bar so the question remains, how AWARE are they? In that case sleep/meditate could just be cultural differences that do the same thing (unconscious/unaware for a period of time)
My ruling on that? Elves don't sleep and there for can pull guard all night long, however still need to meditate to regain spells and uses per day. They are aware and can react all they want during the meditation, however interrupting it does require that it start over/be resumed to achieve the desired results.
However, would that effect how elves are effected by exhaustion/ fatigue? (generally IRL one sleeps to recover from exhaustion/fatigue) being as elves are naturally low on con, they are more susceptible to exhaustion/fatigue, however undead have 0 con and are immune to it, so it could just be an elf ruling.
Lot's to consider there.
Again, I guess it goes back to, WHY do you want the character not to sleep?
Edit:
your GM's argument for elves being a humanoid is weak at best and ruined right here:
Traits: A humanoid possesses the following traits (UNLESS OTHERWISE NOTED in a creature's....
copied from your own paste above.
Information about elves from what I pasted is "otherwise noted"... so being an elf, changes that particular condition of being "humanoid" with the elf sub type.
Like I posted, James Jacobs said that elves in Golarion do indeed sleep. He's also said that on many accounts, they've retconned a lot that was in the old Golarion setting from 3.5. Like, most of Dragons Revisited is pretty useless for Golarion. And unlike rules questions, he is the guy in charge of anything and everything in the setting so yes, elves do need to sleep and the information in Second Darkness is no long canon.
Like I posted, James Jacobs said that elves in Golarion do indeed sleep. He's also said that on many accounts, they've retconned a lot that was in the old Golarion setting from 3.5. Like, most of Dragons Revisited is pretty useless for Golarion. And unlike rules questions, he is the guy in charge of anything and everything in the setting so yes, elves do need to sleep and the information in Second Darkness is no long canon.
boooo.
any way probably had to do with the whole fatigue/exhaustion issues I mentioned above.
Perhaps "sleeping" is still done by meditating but they are actually "asleep" just don't "lie down" to do it. (like cows sleeping while standing up?)
(like cows sleeping while standing up?)
That's an urban legend.
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Paladin 3. Pick fatigue for your mercy. As long as your Charisma is at least 10, you can lay on hands to remove fatigue once per day, obviating the need for sleep as long as you don't care about spellcasting.
(like cows sleeping while standing up?)That's an urban legend.'Urban' legend? Are you sure?
I think there's more chance of an encounter with a cow on the random encounter tables in the 'countryside' sub-table than the 'urban' sub-table! : )
I think he meant to say that urban cows sleep standing up.
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the myth that their kind is always awake and elven towns have no beds; the truth is that while some elves prefer to meditate in a chair or on a couch, others enjoy the comfort of an actual bed.
Ok, elves do something remarkable similar to sleep if not sleep itself. That aside, lets get back on topic please.
That aside is there a class or ability or item that will allow a character to not sleep? Something that's not a DM fiat (such as arbitrarily becoming undead or a plant) would be much appreciated.
Thank you.
Edit: added "or item"
there was quite a bit in second darkness about how they dont sleep, I just don't feel like going back in there to re read it all. Figured it was covered in elves supplement.PF Elves don't actually sleep, they meditate, I remember this from going through the Second Darkness AP, but do they meditate only for the purpose of regaining spells? Im not certain, I dont have elves of Golarion, are you trying to have someone who is always up on guard? So you can never be surprised at night?
I'm not sure but your elf is scary close to that, anyone know more about the meditation thing? can they be surprised?
I would think an Elf Ranger could just kneel on a mat in full armor and weapons and be ready to go at any time, but how "aware" are they during meditation?
PF elves do have to sleep. They are immune to magical sleep, but as humanoids of the elf subtype, they are still required to eat, breath, and sleep.
for the OP, play a non-native outsider.
One thing to note about the Paizo Adventure Paths is that many of them where originaly made for D&D 3.5. Legacy of Fire and everything before that was originaly made for 3.5 to be specific, that would mean that Second Darkness was originally created to be used with 3.5 as far as I can tell.
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Like I posted, James Jacobs said that elves in Golarion do indeed sleep. He's also said that on many accounts, they've retconned a lot that was in the old Golarion setting from 3.5. Like, most of Dragons Revisited is pretty useless for Golarion. And unlike rules questions, he is the guy in charge of anything and everything in the setting so yes, elves do need to sleep and the information in Second Darkness is no long canon.boooo.
any way probably had to do with the whole fatigue/exhaustion issues I mentioned above.
Perhaps "sleeping" is still done by meditating but they are actually "asleep" just don't "lie down" to do it. (like cows sleeping while standing up?)
No it's simply a retcon. Elves not sleeping is a Tolkien/Forgotten Realms thing that ended up in core 3e. The elves portrayed in Second Darkness are very much 3.5 elves rather than Golarion elves, it's the primary reason Second Darkness is at the bottom of the list every time. It is (thankfully) different in pathfinder.
A ring of sustenance would get you close, only requiring 2 hours.
If the Advanced Race Guide can be used the rules to make custom races in that book can be used to create a race with construct traits, which I believe negates the need for sleep. The book even shows a sample construct race in that section.
Edit: You could also make an undead race with that book too.
The capstone ability of the imperious bloodline also removes the need for sleep.
Ok so IF a ring of sustenance allows a regular human 2 hours of sleep, (dropping his need by a factor of 4) then would an elf need only 1 hour of trance?
That'd be crazy close to no sleep.
again what is the purpose behind the no sleep you are looking for?
Im assuming the answer you are looking for has to be located in some sort of mathematical exploit by combining X with Y and Racial Trait Z.
Ring Of Sustenance + Everwake Amulet (from Ultimate Equipment) + some way to remove exhaustion will pretty much do it.
a lame oracle eventually becomes immune to exhaustion, no?
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even better. the new 1st level spell from "Knights of the Inner Sea" called "Keep Watch". Get a wand of that and you're pretty much set to never need to sleep, EVER. for 750 GP (375 crafting) you can avoid the need to sleep for anywhere from 25-50 days.
This spell enables the subjects to stand watch or keep vigil
throughout the night without any ill effects. The subjects suffer
no fatigue and gain all the usual benefits of a full night’s rest.
The subjects gain hit points as though from resting, wizards may
prepare their spells as though they had slept for 8 hours, and so
on. Effects that rely on actual sleep or dreaming are ineffective,
though the subjects are still susceptible to effects that would
put them to sleep, such as sleep or deep slumber. Any vigorous
activity, including fighting, immediately ends the effect, and the
affected creatures must either have the spell cast on them again
or sleep for the remaining hours to avoid fatigue and gain the
benefits of a full night’s rest.
its up there for the most broken spell ever, in my opinion.
DM: "OK, its nightfall and you don't think its safe to travel much further in the dark. Who takes the first watch?"
Players: "We all do."
even better. the new 1st level spell from "Knights of the Inner Sea" called "Keep Watch". Get a wand of that and you're pretty much set to never need to sleep, EVER. for 750 GP (375 crafting) you can avoid the need to sleep for anywhere from 25-50 days.
** spoiler omitted **
its up there for the most broken spell ever, in my opinion.
DM: "OK, its nightfall and you don't think its safe to travel much further in the dark. Who takes the first watch?"
Players: "We all do."
that only works if the OPs purpose for not wanting to sleep is to keep guard, he actually hasnt stated what he's trying to accomplish with the no sleep, yet.
aarg! so then WHERE is THE OFFICIAL Pathfinder ELF then???? eeeek! Elves lost in time!
oh goodie i ordered that yesterday, if it's not there I will find where you live and lurk in your bushes rolling dice and muttering to myself!
oh goodie i ordered that yesterday, if it's not there I will find where you live and lurk in your bushes rolling dice and muttering to myself!
I haven't read every single reply, so I'm not sure if this has been mentioned before.
From the top of my head I recall two instances in published adventures where a certain NPC (Keeper Crove from the Carrion Hill module, and the goblin druid Gogmurt from Rise of the Runelords AE) hasn't been sleeping for days, and has simply been casting lesser restoration every day to fight off the fatigue.
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Restoration Subdomain also has a nice anti-fatigue ability, though if your DM rules you need sleep for other reasons than fatigue that might not work. (The rules are a bit fuzzy on exact consequences for lack of sleep aside from arcane spellcasting.)
UMD a wand of keep watch never have to sleep again for only 15g a day
15 gold a day is rather spendy, unless your an adventurer, think of what that would really translate to, in terms of people who arent raiding dragon hoardes weekly.
That strategy stops when the spells run out. Not resting means that said druid is running solely on either memorised or wand spells.I haven't read every single reply, so I'm not sure if this has been mentioned before.
From the top of my head I recall two instances in published adventures where a certain NPC (Keeper Crove from the Carrion Hill module, and the goblin druid Gogmurt from Rise of the Runelords AE) hasn't been sleeping for days, and has simply been casting lesser restoration every day to fight off the fatigue.
Druids, as divine casters, don't have to sleep to prepare spells.
A druid must spend 1 hour each day in a trance-like meditation on the mysteries of nature to regain her daily allotment of spells. A druid may prepare and cast any spell on the druid spell list...