All,
I have a desire to make a ranged rogue. Not really for the sneak attack stuff, but just for style / fun. I just picture an Elf rogue with a shortbow.
Can it be passable as a character?
I was thinking something like this could work (tho we rarely play past lvl 12):
01) point blank shot
Rt) combat trick: improved initiative
03) precise shot
Rt) finesse rogue
05) rapid shot
Rt) ??? ... Maybe weapon focus rogue talent?
07) deadly aim
Rt) ??? ... Snap shot rt, surprise attack rt, other?
09) manyshot
At) advanced talent feat: clustered shots
11) quick draw
At) skill mastery
13) two weapon fighting
At) slippery mind
15) improved precise shot
At) improved evasion
17) combat expertise
At) ???
19) improved feint
At) ???
I would prob take Reactionary as a trait. Not sure what the other trait would be.
Wish I could get combat expertise and improved feint in at 6 and 8 as rogue talents. Oh well. :)
Any suggestions? Is this a viable build? We have a generous 25 point buy, since we have only 3 pcs.
I like the rogue talents. I dont like the spellcasting or animal companion fluff for this concept. I do want sneak attack damage on round 1 & other times. Conceptually I want to be a rogue. I dont like alchemists, and vivisectionists sound gross. Yuck.
While the above build wouldnt be uber by any stretch, would it be servicable?
I always found non-spellcasting rangers unsatisfying. Also, I still want sneak attack and plan to sometimes use a dagger or rapier and flank with allies. Ranger just doesnt fit for me. I am just hoping the rogue will be adequate.
If I wanted a serious archer, I would be a male human fighter or else maybe for versatility I would do a beastmaster ranger who uses archery. But I really just have a rogue character concept in which the rogue focuses on bows.
Strictly Paizo only, or is some homebrew allowed?
I certainly think it could work.
One suggestion: you seem to be dropping feats & talents on melee specializations (Finesse Rogue, TWF, etc.) Consider instead that picking up the Point Blank Master feat essentially makes you a viable melee character, and doesn't require weapon swapping, or investment in a separate feat tree. It requires weapon focus, but you probably want that anyway.
I've been playing a level Zen Archer 3, Rogue 1, and flavoring the PBM attacks as kicks, knees, etc. - and it's been an absolute blast. I see no reason you couldn't flavor your PBM attacks as knife slashes or the like. Barring that (or in PFS, where things are played a bit tighter) you're basically doing Legolas-style stabbing people in the face w/arrows.
Anyway, that's the switch I'd make. Otherwise, there's plenty here to make a viable Archer - your skills will be fantastic, and Archery's a good enough combat style that you don't need a million feats to pull it off. Rogues are more than sneak attack - I think this'd be fine.
(Edit: Ninja! This obviously doesn't work with a straight Rogue if you want to threaten/flank)
The rogue isn't so bad as to be crippling yourself, come on now. I've banned the class a few times and even I won't go so far to say you're crippling yourself :p
My concept was:
1) Elf lass living rough on the streets.
2) Max sneak attack dice possible, even when circumstantial, for the joy of rolling a bunch of dice.
3) Try to be a pure rogue.
4) Prefers daggers and shortbows, and has particular shortbow focus/talent.
5) can deal with traps and be the party face.
So really, at least options 2 and 3 defy any attempt/desire to make the character something other than a pure rogue. And option 4 is kinda the whole flavor I want (shortbows).
I do appreciate the desire to make me effective instead of merely passable, however. :) Thanks!
You might also want to take the Ninja Trick: Vanishing Trick. Being invisible sure does help with those Sneak Attacks.
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My concept was:
1) Elf lass living rough on the streets.
2) Max sneak attack dice possible, even when circumstantial, for the joy of rolling a bunch of dice.
3) Try to be a pure rogue.
4) Prefers daggers and shortbows, and has particular shortbow focus/talent.
5) can deal with traps and be the party face.
Too many things ;) If you want to have an effective character, you can't play a ranged rogue. After level six they drop off the charts in terms of DPR. Like blackbloodtroll suggested you should play an urban ranger. It accomplishes 4 of your 5 concept ideas and will be an effective character. If you don't like spellcasting then be a skirmisher.
As for rolling a ton of dice, it's not as powerful as a straight damage boost. Plus you'll vary rarely get off a ranged sneak and if you're sniping that's one attack a round.
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Ignore the "Ranged Rogues are crippled and horrible" statements.
If you want to do this, do it.
No reason to use a shortbow when you can use a longbow (as an elf).
Take the Scout Rogue Archetype and consider Dodge-Mobility-Shot on the Run.
Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Deadly Aim, Weapon Focus: Longbow, Snap Shot, Point Blank Master, Clustered Shots, Rapid Shot...these are all super nice, and you can pick them up as you progress.
Personally, I would suggest:
1: Point Blank Shot
2: RT: Weapon Focus: Longbow
3: Precise Shot
4: RT: Combat Trick (Deadly Aim)
5: Dodge/Rapid Shot (whichever you prefer. Dodge builds to the one-hit run-and-shoot sniper, Rapid Shot is "lots of arrows in the air")
6: Rogue Talent of your choice (I like Fast Stealth or Trap Spotter)
7: Dodge/Far Shot/Quick Draw (depending if you're going for the Run & Gun or Stand & Deliver modes of combat. Also worth considering: Toughness, Iron Will, Piranha Strike, or any other feat that strikes your eyes)
8: RT: Fast Getaway
9: Shot-on-The-Run (for Run & Gun), Manyshot (for Stand & Deliver)
10: Improved Evasion or Skill Mastery
11: Parting Shot or Clustered Shot (or Vital Strike, but that's considered extremely suboptimal)
12: RT of your choice.
Key points of this build:
Do not dump Strength. You get to use a compound longbow (one of the best weapons in the game), so keep that Str as high as you can. A Dex 16/Str 16 Elf is plenty capable in most games, and that's not gonna break your point-buy budget.
Scout Archetype At 4th level you get Sneak Attack any time you charge. This is great for a "switch hitter" since you can open up with a Sneak Attack in the surprise round, hopefully gain initiative and get another Sneak Attack, then potentially charge the enemy on round 2 for a 3rd Sneak Attack. Time to roll them d6's!
At 8th level, any time you move 10' or more and the opponent is within 30', you get Sneak Attack. Much like the 3.5 Scout class, this is your go-to ability from here on out. Dodge-Mobility-Shot on the Run-Parting Shot now allows you to move, shoot, move. If you have to stand still for some reason (like they are right next to you but are flat-footed), Fast Getaway allows you to plug the enemy with a Sneak Attack arrow, then move 30' away. Combine that with Parting Shot for ANOTHER Sneak Attack on the way out.
Add in all the skills you'll get, the Elf racial abilities, and Evasion, and you have a slick infiltrator who can pull off some really nice "hit-and-fade" maneuvers while dishing out decent amounts of damage.
No, you won't have the sheer volume of arrows that a Human Archer Fighter does. Nor will you have the maximal DPR that character (or a ranger vs his favored enemy) does, but you have a functional, fun, ready-to-play character than can contribute and survive from level 1 on.
Psionichamster, as your post illustrates, the reason people say ranged rogues don't work so well is because you can't actually do it reliably until level 8, or higher for other ranged rogue builds. That's 140 encounters before you can even do what you wanted to do from the start. It's like wanting to play a wizard, but only rarely being able to cast spells until level 8.
If his desire is "I want to play a ranged rogue" and the advice is "Well from level 4 to 7, ignore using ranged weapons except for the opening shot of combat and then just use melee weapons so you can constantly charge"...that's not a ranged rogue.
This is the reason I asked if homebrew/3pp is allowed, as I came up with it partially to help ranged rogues do what they want from first level on, rather than waiting until the mid levels.
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Well, I've had great success with this exact build.
Rogues have to be ready to adapt, improvise, & overcome.
Str 16/Dex 16 with a regular longbow & PBS nets you a +4 to hit / 1d8+1 ranged attack every round at level 1. That bumps to +6/1d8+4 at level 2 with Weapon Focus and a compound longbow +3. Grab a magic bow (not unreasonable for level 1 enemies) and it just gets better.
Like I said, you won't brother DR king, but against normal encounters, you're far from useless.
Sneak Attack becomes an optional damage add-on, rather than the be-all, end-all need.
I really want a stand and deliver rogue with high initiative. Meaning, my desire would be to win initiative and get a ranges sneak attack. But once foes engage, I would do flanking dancing with a melee partner. As I get higher level, I would lean on ranged stuff even more, but not with any particular attempt to get sneak attacks in.
Thanks for all the replies!
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No, you won't have the sheer volume of arrows that a Human Archer Fighter does. Nor will you have the maximal DPR that character (or a ranger vs his favored enemy) does, but you have a functional, fun, ready-to-play character than can contribute and survive from level 1 on.
Bear in mind this build focuses on moving and shooting. At level 10, you're firing one attack with a +5d6 bonus to another archer's 3 attacks with rapid/multishot at full BAB.
It really depends on the rest of your group. If everyone is playing optimized characters you shouldn't take this build. If they are all mediocre then feel free. Just those giving advice are concerned your character will be ineffective and therefore not fun to play.
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No, you won't have the sheer volume of arrows that a Human Archer Fighter does. Nor will you have the maximal DPR that character (or a ranger vs his favored enemy) does, but you have a functional, fun, ready-to-play character than can contribute and survive from level 1 on.Bear in mind this build focuses on moving and shooting. At level 10, you're firing one attack with a +5d6 bonus to another archer's 3 attacks with rapid/multishot at full BAB.
It really depends on the rest of your group. If everyone is playing optimized characters you shouldn't take this build. If they are all mediocre then feel free. Just those giving advice are concerned your character will be ineffective and therefore not fun to play.
Ineffective? As in, not angle to survive books 1-4 of Rise of the Runelords? Because that suggested character came from exactly that situation.
Theory craft vs at-table experience.
For stand&deliver types, prioritize Rapid Shot, Manyshot, and anything that will increase your to-hit bonus. Finesse Rogue & a rapier will help once the baddies get in melee
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No, you won't have the sheer volume of arrows that a Human Archer Fighter does. Nor will you have the maximal DPR that character (or a ranger vs his favored enemy) does, but you have a functional, fun, ready-to-play character than can contribute and survive from level 1 on.Bear in mind this build focuses on moving and shooting. At level 10, you're firing one attack with a +5d6 bonus to another archer's 3 attacks with rapid/multishot at full BAB.
It really depends on the rest of your group. If everyone is playing optimized characters you shouldn't take this build. If they are all mediocre then feel free. Just those giving advice are concerned your character will be ineffective and therefore not fun to play.
Ineffective? As in, not angle to survive books 1-4 of Rise of the Runelords? Because that suggested character came from exactly that situation.
Theory craft vs at-table experience.
For stand&deliver types, prioritize Rapid Shot, Manyshot, and anything that will increase your to-hit bonus. Finesse Rogue & a rapier will help once the baddies get in melee
Not to be a negative Nancy or anything, but you do realize that GMs control encounters not the APs, right?
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Yes.
Obviously.
The claim was made that the proposed character was "ineffective", "crippled", and "useless".
In rebuttal, I offer anecdotal evidence that this exact character was able to provide effective in game support for the first 4 published Pathfinder adventure modules. This establishes a baseline of expectation that can be compared easily across a wide number if users.
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Melee fighter, witch, oracle of life, bard, & me.
Highlights:
Nailing a dragon with a full-attack sneak attack during part 4. Result: dead dragon.
Plugging goblins off the walls from stealth.
One-shotting ogres on the dam before they drew weapons.
Like I said, I was part of a party that moved through Runelords.
Frankly, questioning my veracity in such s roundabout fashion in not appreciated.
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Yes.
Obviously.
The claim was made that the proposed character was "ineffective", "crippled", and "useless".
In rebuttal, I offer anecdotal evidence that this exact character was able to provide effective in game support for the first 4 published Pathfinder adventure modules. This establishes a baseline of expectation that can be compared easily across a wide number if users.
I have played this type of character in the past. I have DM for this type of character in the past. One was in age of worms, the other in Council of Thieves. All 3 of them under performed compared to the other members of the party. In no way where this characters able to keep up compared to the other party members. Saying you did something and saying your character was effective. Is two very different things.
You need to look at the level range. Not what book you where in. Game play from levels 1-7 AC, Low Save DC, Ability scores matter more then skill ranks. Make the bulk of game play for these levels. Game play from levels 8-13 AC is still OK. Unfocused save DC are 50/50, Skill ranks matter more then ability scores. Starting at level 13+ Unless your fully focused on AC it means nothing. Unless your save DC are high(20+) don't. If you have under 100HP don't get close to a fight.
Hey guys, the OP asked for advice on how to make a build. He didn't ask if he SHOULD make a particular build, just how to go about it. Can we just let the bickering go and try and provide some more constructive feedback?
What constitutes an "effective" character varies from group to group.
Thanks everyone. I do appreciate all the responses. The "do", "dont", "heres how" and "calls for restraint" stuff are all good. :)
I would run a halfling with Stealth of Shadows racial variant. Focus on sniping, destroy ALL the things.
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Melee fighter, witch, oracle of life, bard, & me.
Highlights:
Nailing a dragon with a full-attack sneak attack during part 4. Result: dead dragon.
Plugging goblins off the walls from stealth.
One-shotting ogres on the dam before they drew weapons.
Like I said, I was part of a party that moved through Runelords.
Frankly, questioning my veracity in such s roundabout fashion in not appreciated.
Meh. Sounds like you meleed the dragon...doesn't make the ranged rogue any better.
Or he could have won initiative within his sneak attack range and did it with a bow, right? :)
(Sorry, board ate my post, it wasnt showing anymore, reposting)
One level of Water Sight oracle gives you the ability to cast obscuring mist 3+ times a day... and see through it.
That allows full ranged attacks to all have sneak attack dice on them.
Yeah, I knew about that trick, but it doesnt fit the concept. I will definitely do that someday tho, on a character it feels right for.
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(Sorry, board ate my post, it wasnt showing anymore, reposting)
One level of Water Sight oracle gives you the ability to cast obscuring mist 3+ times a day... and see through it.
That allows full ranged attacks to all have sneak attack dice on them.
This is a cool concept, but the hostility from the rest of the group would make it tough.
Can you use third party stuff?
What hostility? Just stand to the side. :) Or everyone take 1 level in Oracle of Waves. :)
Anyway, no, we dont use third party or non-pathfinder.
I've been messing around with a build for a character where I was trying to come up with a workable way to both be a ranged rogue and use a heavy crossbow, both non-optimal choices. I decided to be a dwarf as well, just because. This is what I came up with:
Rogue (sniper, scout archetypes)
Ability Scores (20pts) -
Str:14
Dex:16
Con:14
Int:10
Wis:15
Cha:8
Feats and Rogue Talents -
F1: rapid reload (heavy crossbow)
Rt2: combat trick (point-blank shot)
F3: precise shot
Rt4: minor magic (acid splash)
F5: quick draw
Rt6: major magic (enlarge person)
F7: shadow strike
Rt8: surprise attack
F9: vital strike
ARt10: dispelling strike
F11: improved initiative
ARt12: sniper's eye
F13: steel soul
ARt14: hide in plain sight
F15: improved vital strike
So obviously, this build won't win any DPR competitions, and I'm sure it's not perfect even for what it is, but it should be fun to play and able to contribute to whatever the group is doing.
A brief overview on how I envision this being played: The idea is to get a vital strike ranged sneak attack as often as possible. The equipment you choose will be very important in trying to accomplish this. Use smokesticks to gain concealment when you otherwise wouldn't be able to. To the extent that you're able to choose tailored magic items (this varies from GM to GM), focus on boosting your to-hit, and your stealth check. I would also recommend investing in a handful of various +1 bane bolts; this build's much lower rate of fire compared to other ranged characters means that you really won't use these at a prohibitive rate, and they can boost your to-hit until your weapon is +3, as well as adding extra damage. At higher levels, different magic bolts can be used the same way. This build also has the ability to switch to melee when needed, via the scout's ability to get sneak attack on a charge (and later, after simply moving 10 ft). A dwarf can quick draw a battleaxe, and charge in for sneak attack. Vital strike also works just as well in melee as at ranged. I know a lot of people don't like the minor and major magic rogue talents, which is understandable. I do like them for this build, however. Acid splash provides a no save, no SR, no DR touch attack to be used with sneak attack, while enlarge person is useful with vital strike for those times when you just can't get a sneak attack (large heavy crossbow vital strike is 4d8+bonuses), or when you go into melee.
The next easiest way after water sight is the Gang Up feat. As long as two allies are threatening then you are considered flanking "regardless of your actual positioning". By RAW this works with range. Ideally your group will have someone doing some summoning, and/or some pets.
That should do it. With this build just take the vital strike feats so you can still do single shots then hide with your move action if you need to. UMD for gravity bow to beef up vital strike damage to high levels. This gives you two ways to get sneak attack after initiative flat footedness. Alternatively, you do not need vital strikes at all, see below.
You don't *need* to take the sniper varient per se. You're going to be hovering around the 30' range a lot though so it would be of great benefit. You could also consider the scout variant and eliminate the need to hide all the time (if you move, you SA). It's kind of up in the air. Sniper might be better because eventually opponents fly and they'll be out of SA range occasionally. Fortunately you can take both variants together, and now we're on to something.
If you have UMD and the scout variant you can use a mount spell to great effect, as the horse moves while you take a full attack and your first shot is a sneak attack.
I'd say this all points to a halfling or gnome archer with a wand of mount, UMD, Gang Up, and both the Sniper and Scout variants. It's going to give you a ton of ways to full attack and sneak attack.
I worked with the possible build for this, and it should come as no surprise human is better due to the feat starved nature of things, in fact one level of fighter at first makes life considerably easier:
Fighter1 Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot
Rogue1
Rogue2 Expertise, Combat Feat: Gang Up
Rogue3
Rogue4 Spare Feat, Weapon Training: Shortbow/Longbow
Rogue5
Rogue6 Spare Feat, Spare Talent
Rogue7
Rogue8 Spare Feat, Spare Talent
The spare talents could be anything... Minor Magic (Detect Magic), Major Magic (Mount/Gravity Bow/Vanish), Rogue Talent: Snap Shot, Getaway Artist or Snipers Eye.
The feats could be anything too, I'm not sure I'd use deadly aim on a rogue but it's certainly viable if you're not having problems hitting (remember, you're -4 to guys in combat). Manyshot offers no additional sneak attack damage dice, but it is one more shot. The snap shot feat chain is nice but has some high BAB requirements and won't help you all that much (no sneak attacks). Just let the campaign fill in the rest.
I strongly recommend firearms for a ranged rogue. For two reasons -
1. Touch attacks solve the core rogue problem of not being able to hit.
2. At low levels you can use flare cartridges to blind enemies for sneak attack.
At high levels I would use shatter defenses to sneak attack at range.
The best way to accomplish this is to dip one level of gunslinger - I recommend pistolero or mysterious stranger. Use the rake archetype to intimidate from range for the shatter defenses combo at higher levels. Here's a sample build (human)
1. Gunslinger Rapid Reload, Point Blank Shot
2. Rogue (Rake)
3. Rogue (Rake) Rapid Shot, Precise Shot (via Combat Trick)
4. Rogue (Rake)
5. Rogue (Rake) Deadly Aim, Weapon Focus (via Weapon Training)
6. Rogue (Rake)
7. Rogue (Rake) Dazzling Display, Talent of your choice
8. Rogue (Rake)
9. Rogue (Rake) Shatter Defenses, Talent of your choice
Also, the gang up feat only works for melee attacks unless you are also able to threaten with a ranged attack (via snap shot and/or improved snap shot). In addition to its positioning requirements (which gang up relaxes) flanking also requires that you threaten with the weapon in question. Sorry.
Just to clarify, the gang up issue has been addressed specifically in a FAQ:
Gang Up: Does this feat (page 161) allow you to flank a foe with ranged weapons?
The Gang Up feat allows you to count as flanking so long as two of your allies are threatening your opponent. The feat makes no mention of ranged attacks being included, and since flanking specifically refers to melee attacks, ranged attacks do not benefit from this feat. (JMB, 8/13/10)
—Jason Bulmahn, 08/13/10
There are no abilities put out by Paizo for Pathfinder that allows you to do ranged flanks.
Gang Up + Snap shot does NOT work as it still does not allow you to overcome the explicit melee only aspect of flanking. Especially not by RAW.
Interesting, the wording explicitly states regardless of your actual positioning you're considered flanking. It makes no mention of not applying to range. I'd say they need a new wording for the FAQ to agree with the feat.
It changes the positioning requirement, but not the melee requirement. It makes no mention of allowing you to ignore the "when making a melee attack" portion of flanking, only the rest of it.The "normal" portion shows this pretty well, IMO. Although I do agree that the feat could make it more explicit as this trips up a lot of people.
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Although I do agree that the feat could make it more explicit as this trips up a lot of people.
Nah I think it's explicit enough. Just a lot of people don't know you cannot ranged flank period.
The main reason why a sniper PC doesn't work is because they must use a move action to remain in stealth. Before everyone is making multiple attacks it doesn't matter but after 6th level you're really going to fall behind. You could work with your GM to change the rules regarding sniping but I'd talk with all your players. In a home d20 Conan the Barbarian game our GM essentially made sniping a swift action but that quickly made the ranged Rogue overpowered. It kind of cheapens the experience when you're bending the rules... :(
My beef is it doesn't say you fill X requirement for flanking, it says "you are considered flanking" which is pretty clear, this feat by that wording bypasses all requirements for flanking and grants the condition. If that wasn't enough it then expounds with "regardless of positioning"
This means that no matter where on the planet my character is standing, he would be considered flanking... because the word "regardless" has a meaning. It seems to me even the FAQ wasn't strongly worded enough to clear this up. They really need to reword the feat.
The main reason why a sniper PC doesn't work is because they must use a move action to remain in stealth. Before everyone is making multiple attacks it doesn't matter but after 6th level you're really going to fall behind. You could work with your GM to change the rules regarding sniping but I'd talk with all your players.
Actually if you use a small mounted rogue he'd get his 10' move via his mount and still get a full attack. Scout variant specifically states SA only applies to the first attack, but from then on you could deadly aim for more DPR. I think that specific ranged rogue would work well.