Trying to adapt my Lore Warden....

[Edeldhur]

Hello all,

I am not here looking for any spoilers or inside intel, but simply advice.

I have created this caracter for my first PbP ever Skulls and Shackles - I was inexperienced, did not have a great grasp of PbP or APs, Player Guides, etc.

I simply am a sucker for fighters, and understanding that this would be a swashbuckling kind of thing, read around for a while, and decided to create a lightly armored fighter type - thus Edeldhur arose.

The idea behind it would be to throw some crane type feats to the mix further ahead, and maybe even going duelist, but nothing quite well thought out.

Now... the thing is, we're on the first part of the AP, and I REALLY feel like a 5th wheeler, I cannot climb, I cannot swim, I cannot dish out damage, cannot perform... well, I don't want to be whining but I guess I am getting a little frustrated at the character (my fault ofc) since it seems I cannot get much mileage and/or participation in the AP from him.

On the other hand, I enjoy the group I am in, and I like to finish what I've started, so I would like to ask your opinions on how I can give this guy a tune up to make him more enjoyable for me, and more participative...

Thank you in advance for any tips.

Cheers.

[Azaelas Fayth]

Can we see your current build, comrade?

[Edeldhur]

Of course - I forgot to add it was on the link for Edeldhur - posting it now:

Crunch:

Fighter (Lore Warden) lvl1
Gender Male
Size 6 feet
Age 32
Alignment Chaotic Good
Strength 10
Dexterity 17
Constitution 13
Intelligence 14
Wisdom 10
Charisma 14

EDELDHUR

Male Fighter 1
CG Medium Human / Humanoid (Human)
Init +5 ; Senses Perception +1, Low-light Vision

==DEFENSE==
AC 17, touch 14, flat-footed 13 (+3 armor, +3 dex)
hp 11 (1d10+1)
SR 0
Fort +3, Ref +3, Will +1
Armor Studded Leather, Light

==OFFENSE==
Spd 30 ft/x4
Melee Rapier +5 (1d6) 18-20/x2 CM +1
Ranged Thrown Dagger +4 (1d4) 19-20/x2

==STATISTICS==
Str 10, Dex 17, Con 13, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 14
BAB +1, CMB +1, CMD +15
Feats Armor Proficiency (LIGHT) (PFCR 118), Dodge (PFCR 122), Weapon Finesse (PFCR 136), Weapon Focus (Rapier) (PFCR 136-137)
Skills Acrobatics +3, Climb +3, Knowledge (arcana) +6, Knowledge (planes) +6, Perception +1, Perform (stringed instruments) +3, Use Magic Device +3
Traits Indomitable Faith (Faith) (PFAPG 328), Reactionary (Combat) (PFAPG 328)
Languages Common, Draconic, Elven

Forgot to add something also - I wouldn't want to overlap much on the other party members' roles - we have a Barbarian, a ranger, a bladebound kensai magus, and a wizard.

[Azaelas Fayth]

Spoilers are your friend for posting builds.

I'm guessing:
Barb & Magus are Melee.
Ranger & Wizard are Ranged.

Biggest Problems I See Right Off:
-STR: It is too low to dish out damage.
-Weapon choices: These weapons are best with something to add damage. such as Vital Strike/Sneak Attack.

From what I can tell fix these and you are golden. Weapons might be best to look into Dervish Dancer which means picking up a Scimitar. Alongside a Bow/Crossbow. Maybe see about a total rebuild with your GM because this is just a Patch.

A Fighter with a Rapier is better off focusing on STR instead of DEX and using the Feat slot for something other than Weapon Finesse.

Your build would work better with a Rogue. Especially a Dervish Dancing Scimitar brandishing one.

[Edeldhur]

This means that I would have to change the characterbuild after I have played with it, instead of evolving it into something different? Damn...

[blackbloodtroll]

You can retrain the Weapon Focus feat, and go for a trip/disarm build.

[Azaelas Fayth]

This is true. I forgot Fighter can retrain Feats now.

[Edeldhur]

I actually would like to keep the tone of the character - the charismatic "swashbucklish" mobile, but lethal fighter.

We may actually be close to leveling up - would it make any sense to roll with the punches ant take Piranha Strike on level 2?

[Benly]

Okay, so what I see here is that you rocked a good defense and no real offense. You're feeling like a fifth wheel because you forgot to put in something for your character to actually do in a fight.

First, some bad news: your best option using RAW would be for the character right now to drop his rapier, grab a scimitar, spend two skill points on Perform (dance) next level and pick up Dervish Dance. This really isn't your fault: there's no reason for Paizo to have given the scimitar better support than the rapier for this kind of combat style when the rapier seems to make more sense. If your GM is kind, he may let you take this feat for rapier instead.

The next feat to think about is Piranha Strike. This is basically Power Attack, except that it's for finesse weapons. It gives you more damage which will help you pull your weight some.

My third suggestion is Agile Maneuvers combined with one or more combat maneuver feat chains, probably Trip to start - you'll get Combat Expertise as a bonus feat from Lore Warden, so that'll help you snag it. Combined with Lore Warden's scaling CMB bonus, you'll be a beast at tripping.

Once you're contributing offensively, you can think about shoring up your defenses further, but those three feats should all help you pull your weight.

[blackbloodtroll]

Tripping and Disarming sounds very "swashbucklish".

Dread Pirate Roberts did it.

You can do both with a Scimitar, and with the Dervish Dance feat, you can use dex for damage.

[Edeldhur]

First of all, thank you for the feedback so far on this one-as you can see the character is not optimized in the least, I just grabbed what I felt a swashbuckler should have and added it up (dex, int and cha) :D

Looking at the character, would you guys say I would be able to pull it off if I now decided to level up as a bard? The character concept follows a martial/lore logic. No one says a bard has to be a fop right? Do I have the stats to pull an Arcane Duelist out of the hat or...? Even though I already gimped my caster level and the group does have a Magus...

On the other hand, I have noticed we actually have no rogue at all - any suggestions if I plan to go that way?

Last but not least, in any of the above, would it pay off to stick with Lore Warden for one more level at least, for the added feat?

[blackbloodtroll]

You can go full Lore Warden and keep your concept.

Retrain Weapon Focus, and Scimitar it up with Dervish Dance.

[Benly]

I would not recommend jumping ship to bard. I do think that you can constructively follow Lore Warden if you pick up the feats I suggested. Tripping and disarming do seem pretty swashbuckley to me, and Lore Wardens are really good at it; all you need is Agile Maneuvers to let you use your strong Dex for it. If you get Agile Maneuvers and Dervish Dance you'll be pretty close to a single-stat character, which is always nice. Your original Crane Style idea isn't bad once you're going that route, either. The character will take a level or two to shape up, but that'll always happen when you're turning a build around and Dervish Dance can be taken at your next level-up for good damage at least.

You're level 1 and you've got a character who honestly is at a decent starting point for a dex-based combatant build, so you don't need to ditch it - you just need to grow him into that build.

[blackbloodtroll]

Hell, you can take the Dervish Dance Lore Warden all the way up to the Duelist prestige class.

Very Swashbuckler.

[Edeldhur]

Ok, I agree with you guys - I want to follow through with this guy - I could do something like:

Level 2:

- Drop the Rapier and grab a scimitar.
- Add up perform
- Grab Dervish Dance

The problem I see with this one is my already selected weapon focus with the rapier... I cannot just swap it, can I?

or

- Stick with rapier
- Add in Piranha Strike (though from what I've read around in the forums it would seem dervish dance is mechanically better damage wise)

It would also be nice being able to somehow factor in my Cha and Int into my combat abilities also even though I may have spread my stats too thin to notice any real benefit.... I find stuff like canny defense really cool, or maybe a similar Cha based ability from another class... I guess at the very least, the Cha and Int will allow me entrance to a varied group of feats...

[Benly]

You actually can trade out your weapon focus.

"Upon reaching 4th level, and every four levels thereafter (8th, 12th, and so on), a fighter can choose to learn a new bonus feat in place of a bonus feat he has already learned."

Your Intelligence will be useful if you stick with Lore Warden, since you make Knowledge checks for the Know Thy Enemy ability. As for Charisma, Antagonize could be useful once you've got your basics together - it combines very nicely with Crane Style, for instance, letting you force an enemy to attack you and then bat aside his attack.

[blackbloodtroll]

You can swap Weapon Focus.

It's one of the Fighter's abilities.

Piranha Strike will not work with a Scimitar.

Put you fourth level ability point into strength, nab a +2 strength belt, then grab Power Attack.

[Edeldhur]

I meant to say that I will only be able to swap it out at level 4, correct?

Also, Crane style needs improved unarmed strike - but dipping monk will make me lose BAB, doesn't seem like a good enough tradeoff...

[Gerald]

If it were me, I'd dip a couple few levels of rogue for the skills, trap finding, and evasion. Nothing is more swashbuckler-y than that. And the melee guys could help you flank, to get more damage via sneak attack. I think I'd go with three total rogue levels, if it were me. Go back to your bull BAB class after that.

[blackbloodtroll]

It's true you will have to wait, but I would still grab Dervish Dance at second.

Grab Weapon Focus(Scimitar) at 3rd, then you can swap out Weapon Focus(Rapier) for Weapon Specialization at fourth.

Do not multiclass into Rogue. You will regret it.

[Benly]

Edeldhur wrote:

I meant to say that I will only be able to swap it out at level 4, correct?

Also, Crane style needs improved unarmed strike - but dipping monk will make me lose BAB, doesn't seem like a good enough tradeoff...

That's correct, you'll have a couple of levels with a wasted feat lying around. And you're right that it's not worth taking a level of monk just to get IUS when fighters get so many feats to throw around anyway. Crane Style isn't a "right now" feat; pick it up when you get the chance. Antagonize would require starting in on yet another skill you haven't touched yet, so really it's another one that's only for the future if ever.

[Edeldhur]

Ok guys here is a first draft of how he would look on 2nd level (I am guesing I can manage to have my GM allow me some minor changes on the skill selection I made at first level):

Draft Lvl2:

Edeldhur
Fighter 2 (Lore Warden)

Init +5; Senses Perception +0

==DEFENSE==
AC 17, touch 14, flat-footed 13 (+3 armor, +3 dex)
hp 18 (2d10+2)
SR 0
Fort +4, Ref +3, Will +1
Armor Studded Leather, Light

==OFFENSE==
Spd 30 ft/x4
Melee Scimitar +5 (1d6+3) 18-20/x2
Melee Rapier +6 (1d6) 18-20/x2 CM +1

==STATISTICS==
Str 10,
Dex 17,
Con 13,
Int 14,
Wis 10,
Cha 14

BAB +2, CMB +2, CMD +16

Feats
Armor Proficiency (LIGHT) (PFCR 118),
Combat Expertise (PFCR 119),
Dervish Dance (PFCaS: ISWG 286),
Dodge (PFCR 122),
Weapon Finesse (PFCR 136),
Weapon Focus (Rapier) (PFCR 136-137)

Skills
Climb +3,
Intimidate +7,
Knowledge (arcana) +7,
Knowledge (dungeoneering) +7,
Knowledge (local) +6,
Knowledge (nature) +7,
Knowledge (religion) +6,
Knowledge (planes) +6,
Perform (dance) +4,
Swim +4

Traits
Indomitable Faith (Faith) (PFAPG 328),
Reactionary (Combat) (PFAPG 328)

Languages Abyssal, Common, Giant

Let me know your thoughts.

[Azaelas Fayth]

Personally, I would pick up a scimitar, dervish dance, third level weapon focus(scimitar), 4th level retrain weapon focus(rapier) for Weapon Specialization(scimitar) and use the bonus feat for either Vital Strike(up your damage output when moving and attacking) or IUS(if you want to get the Crane Style feats). Also don't forget you can retrain fighter bonus feats every four levels as long as it isn't a Prerequisite for another feat. So if you don't really get mileage out of Vital Strike you can retrain it for IUS or a Crane feat.

[blackbloodtroll]

Looking good.

Remember the ability point in strength and feat swap at fourth.

[Edeldhur]

You think it essential Power Attack for Dervish Dance?

[blackbloodtroll]

It is for damage.

Improved Trip and Fury's Fall will give you x2 Dex to Trip, if that's the path you go.

[Benly]

Personally, I think Power Attack can wait for the most part. Remember that increasing your Dex bonus with this build is +1 to hit and damage as opposed to -1 to hit and +2 damage with Power Attack. I'd put the point into Dex for now and work on Agile Maneuvers and one or more combat-maneuver chains (Improved Trip, Combat Reflexes, and Greater Trip is always a good time, for instance). That said, the Power Attack recommendation isn't a bad one, just different from what I'd pick.

[Azaelas Fayth]

Power Attack? Probably not there are better damage increasing feats for this build.

The build looks great so far.(I was writing my post while you posted your build). Also I recommend planning out each level for 5 levels ahead of you. Now this is simply things like feats, tagging what skills probably need a boost, and where you are going to put ability bonuses.

[Edeldhur]

blackbloodtroll, I can see clearly your point regarding Power Attack... It seems his damage will get stuck at level 5 with Weapon Training without much chance to improve on a moment's notice without power attack.

So I ask again, keeping all of this in mind, and if I am planning to take points from my to-hit to add damage (with power attack), why not simply stay with Rapier, stack dex and factor in Piranha Strike?

It would even lighten me from having to take those 2 ranks in Dance :D

Thoughts?

[blackbloodtroll]

You could go Combat Reflexes, Stand Still, Lunge, Combat Patrol, and control the battlefield.

[Benly]

Thinking about it more, Power Attack is a bad choice here.

With Dervish Dance, consider the following comparison:

+1 Dex at level 4: +1 to hit, damage, AC, initiative, and Reflex saves with no further investment.

+1 Str at level 4: No immediate benefit, but you can then spend 4000 GP and a feat to get -1 to hit and +2 to damage.

Seriously, keep Dervish Dance, forget about Power Attack. Weapon Specialization is a good idea, Power Attack is just not for this build.

Here's a short and easy version: Dervish Dance, Agile Maneuvers, combat maneuver feats, pump Dex, keep up Lore Warden, wreck guys with single-stat melee and huge CMB. Forget randomly going bard or rogue or monk, forget power attack or lunge for no reason, there's a solid core there that you can build on if you want to. When you think of a feat, think "Why am I taking this feat? What does it do for the playstyle I'm planning here?" I don't see any good reason for taking lunge in this build or otherwise jumping ship to do something else entirely.

edited because I was getting too grouchy.

[Azaelas Fayth]

Lunge could work for tight spaces inside a ship.

[blackbloodtroll]

What's wrong with Lunge?

Why so hurt Benly?

[Benly]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

What's wrong with Lunge?

Why so hurt Benly?

Nothing at all is wrong with Lunge as such. The question is, what's right about Lunge for this character? It feels like you've taken what would be good advice for an entirely different sort of fighter build and thrown it randomly into someone asking for advice in a very different niche situation. Advising in favor of Power Attack is the same thing: it's a default feat for many types of fighters, but in this specific case of a character whose stats are already known and ill-suited to it, you're advising him to go well out of his way for very little benefit.

[Edeldhur]

Edeldhur wrote:

blackbloodtroll, I can see clearly your point regarding Power Attack... It seems his damage will get stuck at level 5 with Weapon Training without much chance to improve on a moment's notice without power attack.

So I ask again, keeping all of this in mind, and if I am planning to take points from my to-hit to add damage (with power attack), why not simply stay with Rapier, stack dex and factor in Piranha Strike?

It would even lighten me from having to take those 2 ranks in Dance :D

Thoughts?

Hmmmm, I was pondering again my own question, and the whole Piranha vs. Dervish Dance...

- So factoring all:

Level 4 with Rapier and DX18

Piranha Strike +4 to damage
Weapon Spec + 2 to damage
Total +6 to damage

To hit:
BAB +4
W focus +1
DEX +4
Piranha -2
Total +7

Level 4 with Scimitar, DX17 and STR11

Dervish Dance + 3 to damage
Weapon Spec +2 to damage
Power Attack (would have to buy a magic belt STR+2) +4
Total +9 to damage

To hit:
BAB+4
W. Focus +1
DEX +3
P. Attack -2
Total +6

Level 4 with Scimitar and DEX18

Dervish Dance + 4 to damage
Weapon Spec +2 to damage
Total +6 to damage

To hit:
BAB+4
W. Focus +1
DEX +4
Total +9

Wow, complicated. Is my math correct?

[Benly]

Edeldhur wrote:

Wow, complicated. Is my math correct?

Your numbers look fine on a quick skim. Piranha Strike is not going to be nearly as valuable as Dervish Dance, and bear in mind that Dervish Dance lets you run attack, damage, AC, initiative, and Reflex all off the same stat. That's a lot of mileage out of Dex boosts.

[Bertious]

You could always dip into urban barbarian for a short term dex boost without impacting your bab as well as adding acrobatics to your skill list.

If you are willing to take a 1 point hit to your bab i'd suggest alchemist vivisectionist allowing you a few free potion style buffs per day, a strong dex buff for the big fights, and by playing the flank buddy extra damage from sneak attack not to mention a few extra skill points to add versitility to your swashbuckler.

[blackbloodtroll]

Piranha Strike does not work with Scimitars.

If you want to pump damage, then you need Power Attack.

If want to go another path, avoid both.

[eakratz]

You've already got a barbarian, kensai, and ranger doing damage. Why not forget about worrying about damage and focus on the lore wardens awesome bonuses to manuevers? At 2nd level, you get Combat Expertise for free so you can pick up Imp Disarm with your fighter bonus feat. Using your rapier you get to use your dex for the CMB. Then at 3rd pick up IMP trip. At this point you'll have a +10 CMB to disarm and a +7 to trip. Agile Manuevers at 4th will give you +12 for both of those, and all other manuevers will be + 10 if you up your Dex to 18. Yeah, you might provoke an AoO when bull rushing an enemy off the side of a ship. But hey, you have a good chance to bull rush that guy off the ship. This is all very swashbucklerish. You aren't doing much direct damage, but your party will love you.

[Benly]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Piranha Strike does not work with Scimitars.

If you want to pump damage, then you need Power Attack.

If want to go another path, avoid both.

Power Attack is not a great source of damage at this point in the build, particularly given what needs to be done to get it: a stat-up that could go into his damage stat for a +1 to hit/damage, a 4000-GP item that goes in the same slot as an item that could be boosting his damage stat for another +1 to hit/damage, and a feat. In return for giving up that +2 to hit and damage and that feat, he is getting -1 to hit and +2 damage. It is a seriously raw deal.

[Edeldhur]

Guys, I'm gonna say it again: Thank you for all the feedback and the options presented - regardless of whatever option I take, you have managed the essential which was to motivate me again to work on this guy ;)

Now... The number crunching:

- My main concern in not taking Piranha or Power Attack is damage scalability - meaning that if I do not take one of those, my damage will not rise anymore (barring of course Greater Weapon Spec at level 12) - maybe I can offset this some going the Critical Feats way?

- Looking at the number crunch above though, it would seem that the toll on the to-hit numbers for power attack and Piranha Strike are kinda steep, maybe because this is not "optimized" character. If for example, at level 4, i am up against an AC of say... 16, and I am fighting defensively (yes... we haven't addressed the AC issue yet), I will be hard pressed to pull a decent roll and hit anything with a +4 bonus to hit.... Wouldn't you agree?

- On the other hand, if I do not have a way to scale damage, I will be hard pressed to pass through stuff like DR, I know that is only further down the road, but also further down the road, I hear combat maneuvers get less and less meaningful - probably against giant or quadruped creatures..

For these reasons eakratz, and also because in terms of concept, I imagine this guy as annoying to the opposition, hopping and flashing around - but when they decide to turn on him they get a nasty surprise when he hits them HARD.

And since the feats are the exact reason I chose Fighter, I wanted to see if it was possible to do both: knock the guy out of the ship, trip his friend, and skewer the guy that though I was all flash but no bang :D

Maybe the way my character is built, that is just not possible.

[Benly]

Edeldhur wrote:

- My main concern in not taking Piranha or Power Attack is damage scalability - meaning that if I do not take one of those, my damage will not rise anymore (barring of course Greater Weapon Spec at level 12) - maybe I can offset this some going the Critical Feats way?

Well, there's good news and bad news on that front. While you won't be getting the damage from Power Attack, the fact that you can pour pretty much all your effort into Dexterity without worrying about strength means your damage will at least be respectable. You'll never have the damage per round of the guys who wield the big two-handed weapons, but nobody does.

Critical feats are a pretty solid idea for a character focusing on the scimitar if you're worried about it.

Quote:

- Looking at the number crunch above though, it would seem that the toll on the to-hit numbers for power attack and Piranha Strike are kinda steep, maybe because this is not "optimized" character. If for example, at level 4, i am up against an AC of say... 16, and I am fighting defensively (yes... we haven't addressed the AC issue yet), I will be hard pressed to pull a decent roll and hit anything with a +4 bonus to hit.... Wouldn't you agree?

That's because fighting defensively is a pretty bad idea for the most part. Don't do it. Get some good armor, keep pumping your Dex, and carry a shield in your off hand (remember, you don't need to leave that hand empty unless you go Crane Style or Duelist) and your AC will be fine. You're in the enviable position of having your offense stat also be your defense stat, so capitalize on that.

Quote:

- On the other hand, if I do not have a way to scale damage, I will be hard pressed to pass through stuff like DR, I know that is only further down the road, but also further down the road, I hear combat maneuvers get less and less meaningful - probably against giant or quadruped creatures..

I haven't played Skull & Shackles, but I read the player's guide recently. (It's intended to be read by players before starting the AP, so I wouldn't consider this stuff spoilers.) The ranger section suggests there'll be a heavy focus on human and monstrous humanoid enemies, so that should be all right. Giants are annoying, but your lore warden CMB bonus will help.

Quote:

For these reasons eakratz, and also because in terms of concept, I imagine this guy as annoying to the opposition, hopping and flashing around - but when they decide to turn on him they get a nasty surprise when he hits them HARD.

And since the feats are the exact reason I chose Fighter, I wanted to see if it was possible to do both: knock the guy out of the ship, trip his friend, and skewer the guy that though I was all flash but no bang :D

Maybe the way my character is built, that is just not possible.

I don't see why not. You'll be very mobile between light armor and high Acrobatics, and with Agile Maneuvers and Greater Trip you can zip around behind someone, sweep his legs out from under him, kick him on the way down and laugh.

[Edeldhur]

Let me have another go at him and post him up.

[EvilMinion]

Edeldhur wrote:

Now... the thing is, we're on the first part of the AP, and I REALLY feel like a 5th wheeler, I cannot climb, I cannot swim, I cannot dish out damage, cannot perform... well, I don't want to be whining but I guess I am getting a little frustrated at the character (my fault ofc) since it seems I cannot get much mileage and/or participation in the AP from him.

Well your level 1 ... Not everything comes together at level 1.

How do you get a +3 climb? Str 10, with 1 rank would give you 4. With no ranks would give you 0... 3 seems impossible.

Perform string seems a waste of a point since its not a class skill... You can use it untrained, all the skill point expenditure did was give you a +3 instead of a +2... And that would have been good enough to play guitar.

Next you picked knowledge skills that don't come up at first level. Your a lore warden so you want your creature iding skills... But at lv 1 that should be local and nature or perhaps religion... Not arcana and planar if you want to use them much out of the gate.

And it's skulls and shackles! Your supposed to feel frustrated at level 1. Your just some poor guy who got grabbed off the street. Unless you were getting metagamey, you won't necessarily have skills appropriate to the environment. But you can build on those.

So then it's mostly the pains of a dex based fighter build which others have covered above.

And remember, you can use many skills untrained... You can often take a 10 and still succeed... And our a lore warden, keep up on your acrobatics, you'll need it later for the class feature (I notice some of your redesigns are dropping it)

[Edeldhur]

@Benly: Lore Wardens are not proficient with shields :/

[eakratz]

Benly wrote:

Edeldhur wrote:

For these reasons eakratz, and also because in terms of concept, I imagine this guy as annoying to the opposition, hopping and flashing around - but when they decide to turn on him they get a nasty surprise when he hits them HARD.

And since the feats are the exact reason I chose Fighter, I wanted to see if it was possible to do both: knock the guy out of the ship, trip his friend, and skewer the guy that though I was all flash but no bang :D

Maybe the way my character is built, that is just not possible.

I don't see why not. You'll be very mobile between light armor and high Acrobatics, and with Agile Maneuvers and Greater Trip you can zip around behind someone, sweep his legs out from under him, kick him on the way down and laugh.

I want to first say, add +1 to my numbers above. I forgot to add in Weapon Focus.

Also, by the time you get a good benefit from Dervish Dance or Pirana Strike, you could probably lay your hands on an Agile weapon and get Dex to damage anyway.

As far as the nasty surprise, that is something you can do when you get access to the critical focus feats.

[Azaelas Fayth]

@Benly Dervish Dancer requires you not to have a weapon or shield in your off-hand.

You are also for getting Vital Strike as well.

[Krodjin]

I don't think Piranha Strike will work for Rapiers even. Isn't it only for lights weapons? Rapier is 1 handed if I recall and Piranha Strike does nothing for "Finesse" weapons (unless of course they happen to be light).

[Azaelas Fayth]

Krodjin wrote:

I don't think Piranha Strike will work for Rapiers even. Isn't it only for lights weapons? Rapier is 1 handed if I recall and Piranha Strike does nothing for "Finesse" weapons (unless of course they happen to be light).

Correct, you are

EDIT: If you are looking at Trip, Disarm, & Sunder as your primary Maneuvers then you don't need Agile Maneuvers.

[Benly]

Azaelas Fayth wrote:

@Benly Dervish Dancer requires you not to have a weapon or shield in your off-hand.

Bah, that's what I get for working from memory. Another point in favor of Crane Style then.

Anyhow, Eakratz is right that maneuvers are a great plan. That said, I still think Dervish Dancer is very much the right way to go - relying on getting an Agile weapon means you're putting off your ability to deal decent melee damage until you have enough funds for a +2 weapon and the opportunity to custom-buy one, assuming that even comes up in your campaign.

Alternately, think of it as spending a feat for another +1 to hit and damage since you don't need to buy Agile on your primary weapon. :)