** spoiler omitted **...
What point buy are you using?
edit:I reverse engineered it to be a 21, but I may be wrong
** spoiler omitted **...What point buy are you using?
edit:I reverse engineered it to be a 21, but I may be wrong
I was using 20 Points since the other example in this thread was using that.
STR 15 7 points (+2 human, +2 Belt, +1 attribute point) =20
DEX 14 5 points
CON 14 5 points
INT 10 0 points
WIS 14 5 points
CHA 8 -2 points
It's a 20 buy:
Str 15 +7
Dex 14 +5
Con 14 +5
Wis 14 +5
Int 10 0
Cha 8 -2
Should people be posting builds at above level 10, instead of 5?
Eben in the other thread we did that. I am assuming the higher level builds will come later.
Grumble Grumble... but i want it NOW!
10+ is where the monk gets interesting IMHO. You have enough dosh to get most of your weird paraphenalia, and you get Medusa Wrath, which means lots of attacks. Might toss up a lv11 build later, just to see how it measures up to my paladin that I have laying about somewhere.
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More builds hurts nobody. The rogue seems particulary intriguing.Should I go on? I could build out some 5th level examples of the above if you like.
I'm at work, I'll take a shot tonight while I'm watching the debate, but anyone else can feel free to jump in.
My guess is the rogue will be able to get a much higher attack bonus, higher damage (when sneak attacking and possibly when not), comparable if not better AC.
But words are words, and builds are builds, so we shall see tonight :)
Grumble Grumble... but i want it NOW!
Use your indoor voice and be patient, and if you're good maybe later we'll get you ice cream :O
Monk 2.0 was better. I would have given him javelins also since they have more range.
It is better on offense, but still suffers on defense, which is one of the problems that keeps getting mentioned. The saves give you about a 50% change to get by, but the will save gives a better than 50% chance.
The stealth and perception is not really any better than Shallowsoul's monk so his scouting is suspect unless the opposition is all CR 3 creatures. Well he can probably be expected to get past a few CR 4's, and not get ambushed.
I think it is workable, but it is still not getting picked up as the 4th or even 5th man for a group if other options are there.
I do like ice cream.
** spoiler omitted **...
It's a passable build, although it's also a 'Hulk Smash!' built, which I'm not fond of. Attack chances are decent by abandoning unarmed strike for a quarter-staff, but this brings damage down a little and compared to other weapons available to other classes it's lacklustre. Going with a weapon you are also dropping access to stunning fist, but the save for it is bad anyway so that's no great loss.
AC is awful. You put up that it's 21 with mage armour, but that's not something to rely on and is still less than other melee classes would be on at this level (with a shield, I would expect 25; without, 22).
Hit points are OK, nothing to write home about, same with skills although he lacks knowledge skills.
Basically this is a well-built monk, which is to say sub-standard as a melee class and in need of the rest of the party to help him function. This is at the monk's sweet spot, too.
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I do like ice cream.
They play the class for what it is, but what it is is whatever they decide? That's a serious ice cream koan.
We have come full circle. How very zen.
Male Human Monk(Weapon Adept) 5
LN Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +2; Senses Perception +10
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 17 (21 with Mage Armor), touch 17, flat-footed 14 (18 with Mage Armor)
hp 46 (5 HD)
Fort +7, Ref +7, Will +9; +2 vs. enchantment
Defensive Abilities Immune disease
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 40 ft.
Melee Unarmed strike +9 (1d8+6/x2) or
Melee Mwk Kama +10 (1d6+5/x2)
Ranged Shuriken +5 (1d2+5/x2) 10ft
Flurry Mwk Kama +10 (1d6+5/x2) and Unarmed Strike +9 (1d8+6/x2)
Flurry Shuriken +5/+5 (1d2+5/x2) 10ft
Perfect Strike (5/Day) You must declare that you are using this feat before you make your attack roll (thus a failed attack roll ruins the attempt). You must use one of the following weapons to make the attack: kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, and siangham. You can roll your attack roll twice and take the higher result. If one of these rolls is a critical threat, the other roll is used as your confirmation roll (your choice if they are both critical threats).
Crane Style (-2 attack for +3 dodge bonus to AC when fighting defensively)
Deflect Arrows (1/round negate ranged)
Crane Wing (1/round negate melee)
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 20, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 8
Base Atk +3; CMB +10; CMD 27
Feats: Iron Will, Toughness, Perfect Strike, Improved Unarmed Strike, Dodge, Deflect Arrows, Weapon Focus (Kama), Crane Style, Crane Wing,
Skills: Acrobatics +10(+14 to jump), Climb +9, Perception +10, Sense Motive +10, Stealth +10, Survival +5, Swim +9
Languages: Common
SQ: AC Bonus +1, Fast Movement (+10'), High Jump (+14/+34 with Ki point), Ki Defense, Ki Pool(4 points), Maneuver Training, Purity of Body, Slow Fall 20', Still Mind, Unarmed Strike (1d8), Way of the Weapon Master,
Gear: Bodywraps of Mighty Strikes (+1), Cloak of Resistance (+1), Belt of Strength (+2), Ring of Protection (+1), Mwk Kama, (3) Potion of Mage Armor (CL 1st), (20) Shuriken,
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
AC Bonus +1 The Monk adds his Wisdom bonus to AC and CMD, more at higher levels.
Fast Movement (+10') The Monk adds 10 or more feet to his base speed.
Flurry of Blows +3/+3 (Ex) Make Flurry of Blows attack as a full action.
High Jump (+14/+34 with Ki point)
Immunity to Disease You are immune to diseases.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Ki Defense (Su) A monk can spend 1 point from his ki pool to give himself a +4 dodge bonus to AC for 1 round.
Ki Pool (Su) You have a ki pool equal to 1/2 your monk level + your Wisdom modifier.
Ki Strike, Magic (Su) If you have ki remaining, unarmed strikes count as magic to overcome DR.
Maneuver Training (Ex) CMB = other BABs + Monk level
Purity of Body (Ex) At 5th level, a monk gains immunity to all diseases, including supernatural and magical diseases.
Slow Fall 20' (Ex) Treat a fall as shorter than normal if within arm's reach of a wall.
Still Mind (Ex) +2 to saves against enchantment spells and effects.
Unarmed Strike (1d8) The Monk does lethal damage with his unarmed strikes.
Alright i tweaked it a bit. Now i'm not just using Core.
55 HP (I have 46 so close)
18 AC (I have 17 so close, also i can have mage armor for 1 hour increments from my potions, so when i'm prepared for a dungeon i'm at 21, also have option for using Ki IF needed to boost it to 25 for a round, and i can further boost it with Crane Style)
High Attack 10 (Check)
High/Low Damage 20/15 (i'm doing average damage with 19 with Flurry or 10 with one attack)
Primary Ability DC 15 (N/A I don't have one.)
Good Save 8 (check i got a +9 will +7 with ref and fort)
Bad Saves (i don't have bad saves)
** spoiler omitted **...It's a passable build, although it's also a 'Hulk Smash!' built, which I'm not fond of. Attack chances are decent by abandoning unarmed strike for a quarter-staff, but this brings damage down a little and compared to other weapons available to other classes it's lacklustre. Going with a weapon you are also dropping access to stunning fist, but the save for it is bad anyway so that's no great loss.
AC is awful. You put up that it's 21 with mage armour, but that's not something to rely on and is still less than other melee classes would be on at this level (with a shield, I would expect 25; without, 22).
Hit points are OK, nothing to write home about, same with skills although he lacks knowledge skills.
Basically this is a well-built monk, which is to say sub-standard as a melee class and in need of the rest of the party to help him function. This is at the monk's sweet spot, too.
That was just using the Core Monk. That is where i see the problem with the Monk it needs a tweak at its core. Not much but just a little bit.
I agree that the Monk needs a small tweak. I just don't think it's as bad as some people might make it.
I'm at work on my tablet, so posting up a build is a lil hard, but when I get a chance I can throw up a quickie built level 5 rogue.
And yeah, doing build at higher levels would illustrate points better. It would be nice to show builds at like 5, 8, 12, and like 15 just to show the progression and how the gap between monks and other classes vary and by how much.
And while I know campaigns vary on it, can we agree on some set % cap for an item using WBL, like no more than 25% for any single item? That way casters aren't forced into weapons they don't use etc but we don't end up with a build that relies on an item that costs 50% WBL? And...since it got brought up in another thread...while by RAW craft feats can net you more mileage, how about not counting the craft discount for WBL, since it is reliant on downtime etc?
Just would prefer we are all on the same page for builds, so we can actually get fair comparisons.
** spoiler omitted **...It's a passable build, although it's also a 'Hulk Smash!' built, which I'm not fond of. Attack chances are decent by abandoning unarmed strike for a quarter-staff, but this brings damage down a little and compared to other weapons available to other classes it's lacklustre. Going with a weapon you are also dropping access to stunning fist, but the save for it is bad anyway so that's no great loss.
AC is awful. You put up that it's 21 with mage armour, but that's not something to rely on and is still less than other melee classes would be on at this level (with a shield, I would expect 25; without, 22).
Hit points are OK, nothing to write home about, same with skills although he lacks knowledge skills.
Basically this is a well-built monk, which is to say sub-standard as a melee class and in need of the rest of the party to help him function. This is at the monk's sweet spot, too.
That was just using the Core Monk. That is where i see the problem with the Monk it needs a tweak at its core. Not much but just a little bit.
I agree that the Monk needs a small tweak. I just don't think it's as bad as some people might make it.
The problem is that the game rewards specialization, and the monk does not stand out. As an example if Monk 2.0 had an AC of 21 that would be a lot better. It is even better if the perception and stealth could be improved. Then you have someone how is not doing fighter or barbarian damage, but still decent damage, and he can scout.
PS:I don't think a big change is needed either, just something that makes him do more than survive. If that is all the monk excels at, that is pretty bad. I have not checked build 3.0 yet.
I'm at work on my tablet, so posting up a build is a lil hard, but when I get a chance I can throw up a quickie built level 5 rogue.
And yeah, doing build at higher levels would illustrate points better. It would be nice to show builds at like 5, 8, 12, and like 15 just to show the progression and how the gap between monks and other classes vary and by how much.
And while I know campaigns vary on it, can we agree on some set % cap for an item using WBL, like no more than 25% for any single item? That way casters aren't forced into weapons they don't use etc but we don't end up with a build that relies on an item that costs 50% WBL? And...since it got brought up in another thread...while by RAW craft feats can net you more mileage, how about not counting the craft discount for WBL, since it is reliant on downtime etc?
Just would prefer we are all on the same page for builds, so we can actually get fair comparisons.
I would say keep it at 20 point buy, since that's what i have already started with. Otherwise just keep to the rules. I see no reason to not use 50% for a single item, since that's the base rule and item crafting is okay in my book.
I'm at work on my tablet, so posting up a build is a lil hard, but when I get a chance I can throw up a quickie built level 5 rogue.
And yeah, doing build at higher levels would illustrate points better. It would be nice to show builds at like 5, 8, 12, and like 15 just to show the progression and how the gap between monks and other classes vary and by how much.
And while I know campaigns vary on it, can we agree on some set % cap for an item using WBL, like no more than 25% for any single item? That way casters aren't forced into weapons they don't use etc but we don't end up with a build that relies on an item that costs 50% WBL? And...since it got brought up in another thread...while by RAW craft feats can net you more mileage, how about not counting the craft discount for WBL, since it is reliant on downtime etc?
Just would prefer we are all on the same page for builds, so we can actually get fair comparisons.
I think level 13 works. Many GM's say the game breaks down for them somewhere between levels 13 and 15 so 13 works. 33% of your wealth on one item is a good compromise between 25 and 50% IMHO.
I think level 13 works. Many GM's say the game breaks down for them somewhere between levels 13 and 15 so 13 works. 33% of your wealth on one item is a good compromise between 25 and 50% IMHO.I'm at work on my tablet, so posting up a build is a lil hard, but when I get a chance I can throw up a quickie built level 5 rogue.
And yeah, doing build at higher levels would illustrate points better. It would be nice to show builds at like 5, 8, 12, and like 15 just to show the progression and how the gap between monks and other classes vary and by how much.
And while I know campaigns vary on it, can we agree on some set % cap for an item using WBL, like no more than 25% for any single item? That way casters aren't forced into weapons they don't use etc but we don't end up with a build that relies on an item that costs 50% WBL? And...since it got brought up in another thread...while by RAW craft feats can net you more mileage, how about not counting the craft discount for WBL, since it is reliant on downtime etc?
Just would prefer we are all on the same page for builds, so we can actually get fair comparisons.
Eh, 33% is better than 50%, I have yet to play with a GM that has been OK with 50% of WBL in a single item, category, yes, item, no.
@Brain in a Jar: Yeah, I'd figured 20 point buy since we started with that. And crafting is fine even by RAW, but it tends to be a campaign specific thing for how it actually effects game play, and it can seriously throw off WBL. A char I made for a level 20 game had 3 craft feats, and while his WBL was 880k, he had close to 1.6 million GP in magic items. That...skews things. A lot.
** spoiler omitted **...A couple of points.
1) only one attack when not flurrying no matter how many weapons you are using.
2) bodywraps only apply to one attack per round at level 5. Depending on how the FAQ/clarification about BAB & flurry interpreted with regards to this item, that would become 2 attacks at level 6 or 8.
1. I only have one attack. I just listed my options of attack. Kama or Unarmed.
2. The bodywraps are only affecting one attack.
Righto, my bad. I was confused. Now that I'm no longer seeing double, you only list one attack for the shuriken during a flurry.** spoiler omitted **...A couple of points.
1) only one attack when not flurrying no matter how many weapons you are using.
2) bodywraps only apply to one attack per round at level 5. Depending on how the FAQ/clarification about BAB & flurry interpreted with regards to this item, that would become 2 attacks at level 6 or 8.
1. I only have one attack. I just listed my options of attack. Kama or Unarmed.
2. The bodywraps are only affecting one attack.
I only listed Shuriken since they are the same attack and damage. Using two shuriken for Flurry.
It's actually the worst TWFer in the game. The weapons it can TWF with are extremely limited, and it doesn't actually have those feats it got for "free" so it doesn't qualify for the other TWF-style feats it may want.Perhaps I shouldn't have said best. Maybe most convenient. It doesn't have to invest any feats and slowly gains access to better "base" weapons, i.e. his own fists. He loses access to the Two-Weapon Rend ability? Bleh. What other TWF feats do people want to take? Having limited access to weapons comes with being a monk.
Paladin has better saves than a Monk.With a decent Cha score, sure. That ability is really powerful for the sole reason that there aren't many paladins walking around with a 16 Cha. At least not in any games I've played. While the exact opposite can be said of monks and Wis and Dex.
You realize that a Paladin beginning with a 15 Charisma can hit 26 Charisma by 20th level with nothing but a +6 Charisma item and a +5 inherent modifier gotten through wish spell-like abilities. That's a +8, and assumes that the player is not emphasizing Charisma with his level-up stats. It is actually not hard for a human Paladin to hit both Strength 30 and Charisma 30 by 20th level (with decent stats in between).
That's before you take into account the Paladin's bestow grace spell which doubles their Charisma to saves (it grants a sacred bonus to saves equal to the target's Charisma bonus, and stacks with Divine Grace). That aside, a Paladin with a mere +2 Charisma already is +10% better than an equal level monk at both Fortitude and Will saves, and only 20% worse than a monk on Reflex saves (net of 0%). Which means a Paladin with a +3 or higher Charisma has better saves than a monk.
I posted some math concerning Paladins a while back (not in regards to monks, I typically use Ranger in those comparisons) which showed that Paladins (without giving up their ability to fight as a martial effectively) are probably the only class in the game who can maintain a 95% chance to successfully save vs a level-appropriate effect even after a "debuff-bombing run".
Using the Paladin's worst save at 20th level (Reflex, which is +6, 30% worse than a Monk's) the Paladin then gets +8 Charisma (Divine Grace), +8 Sacred (Bestow Grace) for a +14 base or +22 with bestow grace active. This is baseline, only concerning the Paladin's raw class abilities. The same Paladin should have at least a +6 Dexterity modifier and a +5 Cloak of Resistance. Net result is +25 base on his worst save and +33 with bestow grace active. He can then wear a ring of evasion and benefit from Evasion while prancing about in heavy armor. Now on his worst save (Reflex), he can probably survive a debuff bombing run. Example...
Typical Debuff Bomb: Party member A (Anti-Paladin is ideal) gets the victim inside the Aura of Despair (-2 to saves), then attempts to bestow curse (via spell or antipaladin's touch) for -4 to all checks and saves, Party Member B Intimidates victim (-2 to all saves), Party Member C casts limited wish and gives the victim a -7 to their next save, Party Member D casts heightened (or persistent) flesh to stone and enjoys his new lawn ornament.
Monk vs Paladin Saves: With the above, a monk with +7 Fortitude and a +5 Resistance item would have a +24 Fortitude (versus the Paladin's +40). After the debuff run, to which the monk has little defense, the monk's saving at -15, or at +9. The DC of an ability at this level range is easily DC 30+. The monk had a 75% chance to save before the bomb, but now only a 5% chance to save. The monk is dead meat (especially if it's persistent flesh to stone which requires two saves).
The Paladin on the other hand has a +40 Fortitude, and is immune to fear (can't be intimidated). Best case scenario, the Paladin has a -13 to all saves (but the Paladin likewise is unlikely to actually have the bestow curse land because of his 95% chance to ignore it, but for sake of argument we'll assume the Paladin fails and has a -13 vs the persistent flesh to stone. The Paladin now has a 40-13 = +27. He fails only on a roll of 2 (90% chance of saving).
The above is a pretty conservative Paladin, and assumes a 15 point buy (human, begins at 16 (14 +2), 13, 12, 7, 12, 15, ends at Str 30, Dex 24, Con 24, Int 18, Wis 24, Cha 26). You can do better with a higher point buy. Some Paladin builds benefit entirely from going Charisma prime, especially for tank-Paladin builds (even over Strength and Constitution as Charisma > Constitution for a survival minded Paladin). Paladins are the best spell-tanks in the entire game.
Didn't PF reword Evasion so it specifically stops working in Medium or Heavy armor?
Otherwise carry on.
Didn't PF reword Evasion so it specifically stops working in Medium or Heavy armor?
Otherwise carry on.
No, they didn't. I'm speaking of a ring of evasion which does not care what sort of armor you are in. A rogue a monk's evasion (light or no armor) and a ranger's evasion (medium or lighter armor) have their own special rules and restrictions.
Each instance of Evasion is different:
Monk Evasion only works unarmored/shielded.
Rogue Evasion only works in Light or None.
Ranger Evasion works in everything but Heavy.
Ring Evasion works, period.
(Ninja'd! This is what I get for not refreshing first. <_< )
The above is a pretty conservative Paladin, and assumes a 15 point buy (human, begins at 16 (14 +2), 13, 12, 7, 12, 15, ends at Str 30, Dex 24, Con 24, Int 18, Wis 24, Cha 26).
How exactly did you get your stats that high?
Unless i'm mistaken you used:
1. +5 Attribute Points (from 4th, 8th, etc.)
2. Belt of Physical Perfection(+6) and Headband of Mental Superiority(+6) each of which are 144,000 gold.
3. Purchased and used 3 Manuals(+5)(Str, Dex, Con) each of which are 137,500 gold, 2 Tomes(+5)(Wis and Cha) worth 137,500 each, and a Tome(+4)(Int)which is worth 110,000 gold.
In order to get those "conservative" stats for your Paladin.
That's a grand total of 1,085,500 gold. That's not even including your 25,000 gold Ring of Evasion and other gear(like armor and weapons).
The WBL of a 20th Level character is 880,000 gold.
So correct if i'm wrong.
That was just using the Core Monk. That is where i see the problem with the Monk it needs a tweak at its core. Not much but just a little bit.
I agree that the Monk needs a small tweak. I just don't think it's as bad as some people might make it.
I agree, while I would like the monk overhauled it's not the power that would increase so much as the flexibility and synergy of the powers. The monk only needs a few small tweaks (I illustrated the ones I think he needs in a previous post) to bring him up to the level that other combat classes are functioning at.
Concerning your third build, Crane Wing and Deflect Arrows do help make up for the poor AC, but the AC itself is still a problem. What I would look at with this build is capitalising on his strength with Dragon Style. 150% strength bonus to unarmed damage really adds up.
Going with a weapon you are also dropping access to stunning fist, but the save for it is bad anyway so that's no great loss.
"{A} monk may make unarmed strikes with his hands full." & stunning fist only requires an unarmed attack. I imagine a monk using a quarterstaff still knows "just where to strike to temporarily stun a foe" with a knee.
Other classes using stunning fist may not have this advantage.
The "advantage" of using an ability that will almost never succeed is, logically, almost never an advantage. With the low save and poorer odds to hit, the stunning fist is going to be a non-starter, and that is the other reason I discounted it.
I usually build Monk with Dragon Style it's my favorite one. I wanted to try something else. Though it wouldn't be hard to swap Crane Style for Dragon on that build.
The above is a pretty conservative Paladin, and assumes a 15 point buy (human, begins at 16 (14 +2), 13, 12, 7, 12, 15, ends at Str 30, Dex 24, Con 24, Int 18, Wis 24, Cha 26).How exactly did you get your stats that high?
Unless i'm mistaken you used:
1. +5 Attribute Points (from 4th, 8th, etc.)
2. Belt of Physical Perfection(+6) and Headband of Mental Superiority(+6) each of which are 144,000 gold.
3. Purchased and used 3 Manuals(+5)(Str, Dex, Con) each of which are 137,500 gold, 2 Tomes(+5)(Wis and Cha) worth 137,500 each, and a Tome(+4)(Int)which is worth 110,000 gold.
In order to get those "conservative" stats for your Paladin.
That's a grand total of 1,085,500 gold. That's not even including your 25,000 gold Ring of Evasion and other gear(like armor and weapons).
The WBL of a 20th Level character is 880,000 gold.
So correct if i'm wrong.
Inherent bonuses from planar binding cost 0gp. Every PC in a party with someone that can cast it should have +5 inherent to every stat.
My question: What's with a level 5 examples? Every class works in the low levels, because none of them are really powerful enough not to work (that is, enemies of low CR are designed to be defeated by weak classes).
This isn't really an honest discussion before level 8.
(Not trying to pick on BiaJ here - This applies to everyone.)
The above is a pretty conservative Paladin, and assumes a 15 point buy (human, begins at 16 (14 +2), 13, 12, 7, 12, 15, ends at Str 30, Dex 24, Con 24, Int 18, Wis 24, Cha 26).How exactly did you get your stats that high?
Unless i'm mistaken you used:
1. +5 Attribute Points (from 4th, 8th, etc.)
2. Belt of Physical Perfection(+6) and Headband of Mental Superiority(+6) each of which are 144,000 gold.
3. Purchased and used 3 Manuals(+5)(Str, Dex, Con) each of which are 137,500 gold, 2 Tomes(+5)(Wis and Cha) worth 137,500 each, and a Tome(+4)(Int)which is worth 110,000 gold.
In order to get those "conservative" stats for your Paladin.
That's a grand total of 1,085,500 gold. That's not even including your 25,000 gold Ring of Evasion and other gear(like armor and weapons).
The WBL of a 20th Level character is 880,000 gold.
So correct if i'm wrong.
Did you account the bonuses you get at every 4th level?
Inherent bonuses from planar binding cost 0gp. Every PC in a party with someone that can cast it should have +5 inherent to every stat.The above is a pretty conservative Paladin, and assumes a 15 point buy (human, begins at 16 (14 +2), 13, 12, 7, 12, 15, ends at Str 30, Dex 24, Con 24, Int 18, Wis 24, Cha 26).How exactly did you get your stats that high?
Unless i'm mistaken you used:
1. +5 Attribute Points (from 4th, 8th, etc.)
2. Belt of Physical Perfection(+6) and Headband of Mental Superiority(+6) each of which are 144,000 gold.
3. Purchased and used 3 Manuals(+5)(Str, Dex, Con) each of which are 137,500 gold, 2 Tomes(+5)(Wis and Cha) worth 137,500 each, and a Tome(+4)(Int)which is worth 110,000 gold.
In order to get those "conservative" stats for your Paladin.
That's a grand total of 1,085,500 gold. That's not even including your 25,000 gold Ring of Evasion and other gear(like armor and weapons).
The WBL of a 20th Level character is 880,000 gold.
So correct if i'm wrong.
Most GM's are not going to let that fly. You go playing around with some of the most power creatures in the multiverse, and you might get some visitors you don't want to see.
Inherent bonuses from planar binding cost 0gp. Every PC in a party with someone that can cast it should have +5 inherent to every stat.
"Grant a creature a +1 inherent bonus to an ability score. Two to five wish spells cast in immediate succession can grant a creature a +2 to +5 inherent bonus to an ability score (two wishes for a +2 inherent bonus, three wishes for a +3 inherent bonus, and so on). Inherent bonuses are instantaneous, so they cannot be dispelled. Note: An inherent bonus may not exceed +5 for a single ability score, and inherent bonuses to a particular ability score do not stack, so only the best one applies."
What exactly are you binding that can cast 5 Wishes in a row?
Did you account the bonuses you get at every 4th level?The above is a pretty conservative Paladin, and assumes a 15 point buy (human, begins at 16 (14 +2), 13, 12, 7, 12, 15, ends at Str 30, Dex 24, Con 24, Int 18, Wis 24, Cha 26).How exactly did you get your stats that high?
Unless i'm mistaken you used:
1. +5 Attribute Points (from 4th, 8th, etc.)
2. Belt of Physical Perfection(+6) and Headband of Mental Superiority(+6) each of which are 144,000 gold.
3. Purchased and used 3 Manuals(+5)(Str, Dex, Con) each of which are 137,500 gold, 2 Tomes(+5)(Wis and Cha) worth 137,500 each, and a Tome(+4)(Int)which is worth 110,000 gold.
In order to get those "conservative" stats for your Paladin.
That's a grand total of 1,085,500 gold. That's not even including your 25,000 gold Ring of Evasion and other gear(like armor and weapons).
The WBL of a 20th Level character is 880,000 gold.
So correct if i'm wrong.
Yeah that's number 1 on the list +5 points.
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Shallowsoul, your entire "some people play the monk for *gasp* roleplaying" argument is an insulting one.
And I find your responses typical of someone who lacks experience.
I've been playing RPG's for over 27 years and I have seen almost everything you can think of when it comes to concepts but I can tell you for a fact that someone with the experience can create a concept out of any ability score no matter how low or how high.
I noticed you said that Bruce Lee didn't have a low CHA and INT. That's true but since when did all Monk's have to be Bruce Lee? The dwarf in my example actually has an above average INT but a very low Cha. This is justified easily with his backstory. Stoneknuckles spent many years of his life in the underdark as a loner trying to achieve the unity of the mind, body, and spirit so his people skills became rather crude, especially when a spent anywhere from 50 to 75 years alone.
So good sir before you start throwing around that you are insulted how about take a good look at yourself because the buck doesn't stop with you I'm afraid.
Whether you want to believe it or not, people "do" play classes for role playing purposes and not for just the numbers.
Far as I can tell, it's Solar or bust (Gate spell required). Good luck finding a Solar who had 4 Wishes prepared in addition to it's 1/day Wish, and extra good luck on convincing it to uber-buff your entire party.
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Curses, now you've got me thinking of how to play a dumb and ugly monk. I'm thinking something along the lines of a high wisdom due to things "my momma always told me".It's pretty damn depressing when the monk examples put forth to prove that nothing is wrong with the class all dump CHA and/or INT right into the ground.
That certainly doesn't resemble any monk I want to roleplay, but apparently some think that's how we should be playing them if we expect them to work.
Shallowsoul, your entire "some people play the monk for *gasp* roleplaying" argument is an insulting one.
I want the monk to function because I want to actually roleplay a monk. When I last tried to roleplay a monk, it did NOT work. I could have "roleplayed" him as competent and confident as I had envisioned him, but he would have been nothing more than a deluded fool, because mechanically he wound up closer to Jerry Lewis than Bruce Lee.
And Bruce Lee sure as hell didn't have a negative INT or CHA score.
Who created a low intelligence Monk anyway?
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Shallowsoul, your entire "some people play the monk for *gasp* roleplaying" argument is an insulting one.
And I find your responses typical of someone who lacks experience.
I've been playing RPG's for over 27 years and I have seen almost everything you can think of when it comes to concepts but I can tell you for a fact that someone with the experience can create a concept out of any ability score no matter how low or how high.
I noticed you said that Bruce Lee didn't have a low CHA and INT. That's true but since when did all Monk's have to be Bruce Lee? The dwarf in my example actually has an above average INT but a very low Cha. This is justified easily with his backstory. Stoneknuckles spent many years of his life in the underdark as a loner trying to achieve the unity of the mind, body, and spirit so his people skills became rather crude, especially when a spent anywhere from 50 to 75 years alone.
So good sir before you start throwing around that you are insulted how about take a good look at yourself because the buck doesn't stop with you I'm afraid.
Whether you want to believe it or not, people "do" play classes for role playing purposes and not for just the numbers.
You do realize that you can still role-play even with good stats and abilities?
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You do realize that you can still role-play even with good stats and abilities?
Shallowsoul, your entire "some people play the monk for *gasp* roleplaying" argument is an insulting one.
And I find your responses typical of someone who lacks experience.
I've been playing RPG's for over 27 years and I have seen almost everything you can think of when it comes to concepts but I can tell you for a fact that someone with the experience can create a concept out of any ability score no matter how low or how high.
I noticed you said that Bruce Lee didn't have a low CHA and INT. That's true but since when did all Monk's have to be Bruce Lee? The dwarf in my example actually has an above average INT but a very low Cha. This is justified easily with his backstory. Stoneknuckles spent many years of his life in the underdark as a loner trying to achieve the unity of the mind, body, and spirit so his people skills became rather crude, especially when a spent anywhere from 50 to 75 years alone.
So good sir before you start throwing around that you are insulted how about take a good look at yourself because the buck doesn't stop with you I'm afraid.
Whether you want to believe it or not, people "do" play classes for role playing purposes and not for just the numbers.
You can role play whatever you want as long as it's with in reason. You can't role play being buff with a 5 Str and 10 Con, well you can try but it doesn't make sense.
What I've seen typically with some players is they think you can't function, role play wise, with a low ability score. Oh god I have a 7 Cha so I can't role play that. It's all bullocks no matter how you look at it.
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Shallowsoul, your entire "some people play the monk for *gasp* roleplaying" argument is an insulting one.
And I find your responses typical of someone who lacks experience.
I've been playing RPG's for over 27 years and I have seen almost everything you can think of when it comes to concepts but I can tell you for a fact that someone with the experience can create a concept out of any ability score no matter how low or how high.
I noticed you said that Bruce Lee didn't have a low CHA and INT. That's true but since when did all Monk's have to be Bruce Lee? The dwarf in my example actually has an above average INT but a very low Cha. This is justified easily with his backstory. Stoneknuckles spent many years of his life in the underdark as a loner trying to achieve the unity of the mind, body, and spirit so his people skills became rather crude, especially when a spent anywhere from 50 to 75 years alone.
So good sir before you start throwing around that you are insulted how about take a good look at yourself because the buck doesn't stop with you I'm afraid.
Whether you want to believe it or not, people "do" play classes for role playing purposes and not for just the numbers.
For 27+ years of experience you should know this but...
Role playing and mechanics have nothing to do with each other. I could play a fighter and role play him as a monk. Same with so many other 'classes' they are as much a role playing style as a class. So yes, Mikaze's statement is pretty accurate. As is trying to get on the grognard horse, your not the only one. It is insulting when you try and say that "that apple isn't and apple, its an orange!"
Saying the class is fine because some people pick it for role playing reasons is insulting. It is just an attempt to get around the fact that mechanically, the class has issues. The why or how a person picks the class isn't very relevant at that point. It is the mechanical functionality of the class we are discussing.
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You do realize that you can still role-play even with good stats and abilities?
Blasphemy! You either contribute to the party or you role play!
Everyone knows you can't have personality and be effective at the same time!!!
Only real way to roleplay is playing a monk whose highest attribute is a 11. And it must go to his Charisma! Otherwise, you're just a power gamer that can't roleplay and is having badwrong fun!!!
/sarcasm
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You can easily bind a few efreeti (which have 3 wishes 1/day - only for non-efreeti) and have them stick around for a little while to give you your bonuses. It's just an opposed CHA check, and you can try again as many times as you want by casting the spell again if you fail. Getting +5 inherent to all stats is trivial.
And don't say they're some godlike force you're going to anger; at the point where you can bind them they're pretty paltry compared to a high level adventuring party. Heck, if you want to be a nice guy, Mr. Wizard could make scrolls of plane shift or a wondrous item that mimics it once for them all, an item far more valuable to them than a few wishes they can't use for their benefit or any of their friends' benefit. You could even make them some nice jewelry as a souvenir with fabricate.