Question is right there in the title. What is it about rogues that makes them the only ones that can disarm magical traps? Why can't a ranger or a bard who have invested some ranks in disable device make a fireball trap safe to pass for the party?
I really don't get it.
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It is a class feature .. thats the answer.
My rogue hates orcs but he dont get a favored enemy bonus and he has weapon focus but cant take weapon specialization .. everybody can take ranks in perform but the never ever will get bardic performance etc. etc. Maybe there are better examples out there.
Ventnor:
The history of 2nd edition and earlier D&D is that only Rogues (called Thieves back then) could disable traps.
Third edition modified this slightly by letting characters without Trapfinding disable traps with a DC less than 20.
Pathfinder has gone a step farther by allowing characters without Trapfinding to disable traps of any DC but not magical traps.
It is a progression that has steadily reduced the flavor of Rogues and has made Rogues a less useful and necessary member of the group. This progression is great for non-rogues and those that do not want to play a Rogue but sucks for those that do want to play a Rogue.
Additionally, in 3rd edition various prestige classes had Trapfinding as well. In Pathfinder this erosion of the Rogue's purpose has continued by giving various Archetypes Trapfinding.
Summary: What you think of as a restriction is in fact a constant progression towards the removal of that restriction which is making Rogues a pointless choice.
- Gauss
Edit: Oh, and what Eridan said. :)
I'd houserule that Rangers and Wizards are allowed to find and disarm magical traps.
I frown at the notion of forcing any of my players to roll a Rogue just for the sake of someone having Trapfinding.
I'd houserule that Rangers and Wizards are allowed to find and disarm magical traps.
I frown at the notion of forcing any of my players to roll a Rogue just for the sake of someone having Trapfinding.
It's a vicious cycle. "Rogues don't do enough so nobody wants to play them" --> "Let's give Rogue features to other classes so having a Rogue in the party becomes less important" --> "Now Rogues do even less so even fewer people want to play them..."
It's a vicious cycle. "Rogues don't do enough so nobody wants to play them" --> "Let's give Rogue features to other classes so having a Rogue in the party becomes less important" --> "Now Rogues do even less so even fewer people want to play them..."I'd houserule that Rangers and Wizards are allowed to find and disarm magical traps.
I frown at the notion of forcing any of my players to roll a Rogue just for the sake of someone having Trapfinding.
You can blame the devs who made the Rogue such an unappealing option in the first place.
I can easily say the same thing about Monks. Even if I didn't say, the numerous threads speak for themselves.
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I don't understand the hate for Rogues. Sure, they're outclassed by others when directly comparing one specific category, but as a whole, Rogues are about as versatile as it gets. They are great skill monkeys, great at assisting the primary melee characters, and can even dish out fairly respectable damage.
However, if you're picking a class purely to do the most damage, or to have the most number of skill points, or so forth... Obviously the Rogue is not your best choice. But if you'd like to do all of those things fairly well, then it's a great selection.
I played one up to 12th level recently, and he became one of my favorite characters I've ever played. He rounded out the party in any way they needed. His Perception, with or without trapfinding, was ridiculously high. He also had an incredible Stealth and a +19 UMD, meaning he could always use wands with no issue. It made him very versatile.
And, on a full attack while TWF and flanking, it was very do-able to average 100 or so points of damage in a round.
Again, it's all about the role(s) you want to fill when choosing a class. Other archetypes can also fill those shoes, but a Rogue does a great job at being a helpful addition to nearly any group.
If nobody in my group wants to play a Rogue, I won't force someone to pick one or "punish" their lack of Trapfinding.
I actually play an insane Cleric of Zon-Kuthon in one group, mainly as a debuffer and melee support.
One of my favourite characters ever, since she's cheerful and funny and actually had a Cure wand that actually hurt when she used it.
It's not hate. It's just that other classes can do what they do better.
It is a fact, and some Rogue fans may deny it.
A Rogue can be viable, but will never quite be above other classes.
Is there one class that can do everything the rogue can do, but is better at everything?
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To answer the OPs question (how did we get from rogues and traps to clerics...?)
Question is right there in the title. What is it about rogues that makes them the only ones that can disarm magical traps? Why can't a ranger or a bard who have invested some ranks in disable device make a fireball trap safe to pass for the party?
The rules answer is:
PRD - Perception and Disable Device DCs
Magic Trap: The DC for both Perception and Disable Device checks is equal to 25 + the spell level of the highest-level spell used. Only characters with the trapfinding class feature can attempt a Disable Device check involving a magic trap.
This text can also be found in the 'Environment' section of the CRB
Trapfinding: A rogue adds 1/2 her level to Perception skill checks made to locate traps and to Disable Device skill checks (minimum +1). A rogue can use Disable Device to disarm magic traps.
Note that there are archetypes for other classes that do get trapfinding, so it's not strictly rogue only.
The flavor answer is that, since these traps don't operate in a mechanical fashion, they cannot be disarmed using only mundane mechanical knowledge or skill.
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Is it true that you can "take 20" for most disable device checks?
You can only take 20 if there is no consequence for failing the check. However, for many traps failing by 5 or more triggers the trap (see: PRD - Disable Device).
Hypothetically, if the lowest you could get would not trip the trap you could legally take twenty. However, since only the DM will know the trap DC that may not work for you in practice.
Clerics can be pretty badass. That "heal-bot" crud is a restriction contrived notion created by those that see classes as filling only one role.
And yet I still got flack a month or two after the campaign ended for not preparing a Heal spell over a heightened major curse...
Don't know what you all are smoking (is a joke please don't hit meee!) but the rogue in my group is a beast with a dagger. Jumpin' around, using acrobatics to flip behind people and backstabbing for more damage than... well... a fighter in the group could pop out. Hasn't even crit. yet but I sure am scared to see that...
Shivers*
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Is there one class that can do everything the rogue can do, but is better at everything?It's not hate. It's just that other classes can do what they do better.
It is a fact, and some Rogue fans may deny it.
A Rogue can be viable, but will never quite be above other classes.
Not quite, but the archaeologist bard trades out sneak attack for 6 level spell casting and has access to an unconditional damage boost that multiplies on crits. He may actually out-damage the rogue when using luck because of improved accuracy and will make the rogue cry when fighting elementals or opponents with uncanny dodge or under the effect of a blur spell.
The Archaeologist also trades 2 skill points/level for +1/2 level to all knowledges and perception (the rogue's perception boost normally only applies to traps) and makes a better face because charisma is his casting stat.
The archaeologist may get fewer rogue talents, but most of them suck and he gets quick disable and fast picks bundled with trapfinding as well as the ability to take 10 under all situations. The latter is something the rogue can't get except as part of an advanced talent.
If traps aren't important the vivisectionist makes the rogue cry with nearly as many skills as a consequence of his int based alchemy and full sneak attack progression with mutagens for accuracy and, if strength based, even more damage. And he can still disable nonmagical traps.
May potentially do more damage, maybe. You're limited by the number of spells you can cast, whereas a rogue can keep sneak attacking left and right.
I asked because it was stated that "other classes can do what they do better" and I find that statement erroneous. Maybe different classes can do specific things better, but one class cannot outclass a rogue in every category.