this question has been asked before in regards to whether or not mage armor can stack with magic vestment. However, after reading those threads, i still was unable to find a definitive answer. Therefore, I shall ask this question...
Lets say I use Magic Vestment to give me a +5 'enhancement bonus' to my clothes (which the magic vestment clearly indicates as a legal target).
Therefore I now have [Clothes = AC 0 + 5 'enhancement bonus' from magic vestment]
Now, I then cast Ablative barrier, which gives me a +2 'armor bonus' to my AC.
By my understanding, this SHOULD give me an AC of 7 [0 from clothes, 5 from enhancement, and 2 from ablative barrier]
None of these bonuses overlap (one is an enhancement bonus, the other is an armor bonus), so this would lead me to assume that the AC is correct.
If my assumption is wrong, can someone explain why? Thanks again for the help :)
You are correct, they should stack.
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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this question has been asked before in regards to whether or not mage armor can stack with magic vestment. However, after reading those threads, i still was unable to find a definitive answer. Therefore, I shall ask this question...
Lets say I use Magic Vestment to give me a +5 'enhancement bonus' to my clothes (which the magic vestment clearly indicates as a legal target).
Therefore I now have [Clothes = AC 0 + 5 'enhancement bonus' from magic vestment]
Now, I then cast Ablative barrier, which gives me a +2 'armor bonus' to my AC.
By my understanding, this SHOULD give me an AC of 7 [0 from clothes, 5 from enhancement, and 2 from ablative barrier]
None of these bonuses overlap (one is an enhancement bonus, the other is an armor bonus), so this would lead me to assume that the AC is correct.
If my assumption is wrong, can someone explain why? Thanks again for the help :)
OK, so I do think that your assumption is wrong. Here's my explanation:
Ablative barrier gives you a +2 armor bonus to AC. That's simple.
Magic vestment gives you a +5 enhancement bonus to the clothing's armor bonus, which starts at +0. This means the clothing then provides +5 armor bonus
-(note that the enhancement bonus is not an enhancement bonus to AC, it's an enhancement bonus to armor bonus. This is the same as having an enhancement bonus on your armor and an enhancement bonus on your shield. These stack because they raise the actual armor and shield bonuses, which stack with each other.)
So what you end up with is your clothing providing a +5 armor bonus, and ablative barrier providing a +2 armor bonus, and these two bonuses WILL NOT stack, because they are of the same type.
Does that all make sense? This would be exactly the same as wearing full plate and bracers of armor. Since these are two different items giving armor bonuses, they don't stack.
this question has been asked before in regards to whether or not mage armor can stack with magic vestment. However, after reading those threads, i still was unable to find a definitive answer. Therefore, I shall ask this question...
Lets say I use Magic Vestment to give me a +5 'enhancement bonus' to my clothes (which the magic vestment clearly indicates as a legal target).
Therefore I now have [Clothes = AC 0 + 5 'enhancement bonus' from magic vestment]
Now, I then cast Ablative barrier, which gives me a +2 'armor bonus' to my AC.
By my understanding, this SHOULD give me an AC of 7 [0 from clothes, 5 from enhancement, and 2 from ablative barrier]
None of these bonuses overlap (one is an enhancement bonus, the other is an armor bonus), so this would lead me to assume that the AC is correct.
If my assumption is wrong, can someone explain why? Thanks again for the help :)
OK, so I do think that your assumption is wrong. Here's my explanation:
Ablative barrier gives you a +2 armor bonus to AC. That's simple.
Magic vestment gives you a +5 enhancement bonus to the clothing's armor bonus, which starts at +0. This means the clothing then provides +5 armor bonus
-(note that the enhancement bonus is not an enhancement bonus to AC, it's an enhancement bonus to armor bonus. This is the same as having an enhancement bonus on your armor and an enhancement bonus on your shield. These stack because they raise the actual armor and shield bonuses, which stack with each other.)
So what you end up with is your clothing providing a +5 armor bonus, and ablative barrier providing a +2 armor bonus, and these two bonuses WILL NOT stack, because they are of the same type.
Does that all make sense? This would be exactly the same as wearing full plate and bracers of armor. Since these are two different items giving armor bonuses, they don't stack.
Enhancement bonus is different than armor bonus. You enchant armor with an enhancement bonus NOT an armor bonus. If it was the same type they would not stack. It is different. Think of enhancement bonus as that kind of mystical magical protection, while armor is more you are wearing something that deflects blows and absorbs their impact. They are two different types of bonus.
well, I know bracers of armor don't work because the item 'specifically mentions' that it doesn't stack with other armor bonuses.
From what I can tell, what you're effectively stating that an 'enhancement bonus' is added to the 'armor bonus' of a specific armor...and then that 'ehanchement' bonus is then converted into an 'armor' bonus.
Therefore, what you're saying is that I wouldn't have a shirt of AC = 0 + 5 enhancement bonus...but instead, my shirt would simply be a shirt that gives me a +5 armor bonus. Is that correct?
No, you give an enhancement bonus to the Armor bonus. There is no enhancement bonus to AC. It does not exist.
Sure it does. Look at the different types of bonuses you can create under the magic item creation rules. Enhancement bonus is listed differently than armor bonus. Thus they are two different types of bonus.
Just because an enhancement bonus can be applied to attack or defence depending on what you are making does not mean it is not its own bonus type.
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This is actually very similar to an amulet of Natural Armor or bark skin. Bark skin gives a Enhancement bonus to Natural Armor. A persons natural armor is assumed to be +0. This increases the base natural armor by the 2+. This does not give the user an enhancement bonus to AC, it just gives an enhancement bonus to Natural Armor.
Similarly Magic Vestment give an enhancement bonus to Armor (or shield). Cloths have a base armor bonus of +0. This spell does not give an enhancement bonus to AC but to your armor (or sheild bonus). The type (armor or shield) then stacks or doesn't stack with other spells or abilities as normal.
So no, they do not stack as Ablative barrier give an Armor bonus to AC which you will it already have if you have cast magic vestment.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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This is actually very similar to an amulet of Natural Armor or bark skin. Bark skin gives a Enhancement bonus to Natural Armor. A persons natural armor is assumed to be +0. This increases the base natural armor by the 2+. This does not give the user an enhancement bonus to AC, it just gives an enhancement bonus to Natural Armor.
Similarly Magic Vestment give an enhancement bonus to Armor (or shield). Cloths have a base armor bonus of +0. This spell does not give an enhancement bonus to AC but to your armor (or sheild bonus). The type (armor or shield) then stacks or doesn't stack with other spells or abilities as normal.
So no, they do not stack as Ablative barrier give an Armor bonus to AC which you will it already have if you have cast magic vestment.
Correct.
The best way to point this out to someone who doesn't understand is to point out that a character's armor can have an enhancement bonus (which is then an enhancement bonus to armor bonus) and their shield can also have an enhancement bonus (which is then an enhancement bonus to shield bonus) and these still all stack together because the enhancement bonuses are enhancing different things.
In the case of the OP's question, the items are both providing armor bonuses (even though one of them is exclusively through an enhancement to its base armor bonus of +0) so the bonuses do not stack to determine AC.
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Armor bonuses do not stack. Ablative Barrier creates "invisible layers of solid force" that provide an Armor bonus. Magic Vestment gives an enhancement bonus to the armor bonus provided by the clothing(+0).
Neither improve the other. You have two entirely separate Armor bonuses, and they do not stack.
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@Dukai, I respect your position and it makes sense in a certain light but I have one problem with it.
"You imbue a suit of armor or a shield with an enhancement bonus of +1 per four caster levels (maximum +5 at 20th level).
An outfit of regular clothing counts as armor that grants no AC bonus for the purpose of this spell."
You do not increase your personal AC bonus. You increase the AC Bonus of the armor or cloths your are wearing. Ablative barrier grants a secondary effect that is not armor or cloths but a layer of force. Thus Magic Vestment can not add an enhancement bonus to it.
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To follow your reasoning, Ablative Barrier must stack with common armor.
It doesn't.
Mechanically, the enhancement bonus to the armor bonus provided by clothes, or fullplate, is no different.
Unless you can provide evidence that Ablative Barrier some how bypasses RAW, and stacks with common armor, then it does not work.
I'm on the "It Stacks" side of the argument. Ablative Barrier provides armor bonus, Magic Vestment provides enhancement bonus.
Now if the character was wearing a breastplate for example, that would be an armor bonus to AC meaning the Ablative Barrier would not provide additional AC, but the Magic Vestment would provide an enhancement bonus to AC.
You could still get the other benefits of the Ablative Barrier spell, just not the AC bonus in that case. But, for this scenario, the person wearing just normal closes would get the AC bonus from both spells.
Aye, Dukai, you are wrong. Argue as you like, you are wrong.
Enhancement bonuses affect something else. You can Enhance an Armor bonus, which makes the Armor bonus bigger. YOu cannot Enhance Armor CLASS. AC is the sum result of bonuses, and you Enhance the bonuses, not the final number. So there is no 'enhancement to AC' going on here.
So, this whole thing is basically two different sorts of Armor bonuses being layered. They don't stack, anymore then bracers and full plate would.
==Aelryinth
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There is no such thing as an enhancement bonus to AC.
It does not exist.
Magic Vestment provides an enhancement bonus to the target clothing's armor bonus, which is of course, +0.
You have to realize, that for the purposes of the spell, clothing is just armor with a +0 armor bonus. Magic Vestment increases that Armor bonus.
They don't stack, anymore then bracers and full plate would.
Bracers and Full Plate don't stack because they both provide an armor bonus to AC. Magic Vestment Stacks with either the Bracers or Full Plate because it provides an Enhancement Bonus.
Magic Vestment provides an enhancement bonus to the target clothing's armor bonus, which is of course, +0.
Are you suggesting that clothing provides an armor bonus? If I were to give you a Christmas bonus of zero dollars, did you receive a bonus? If clothing is the hangup in this scenario, I suggest the character play naked [ not the player :) ]
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Magic vestment is very specific. It can enhance the AC bonus provided by armor, shields or clothing. It does not allow you to enhance the armor bonus of any other item, spell or effect. It also does not enhance your ac directory. It does not provide an enhancement bonus to AC it provides an enhancement bonus to the armor (shield or clothing) you are wearing. If anything else gives an armor bonus it does not stack with those.
Edit: @Dukai, I will agree to disagree but I want to point out something about you natural armor example. In your example you still only have 1 natural armor bonus. Your natural armor (from giant form) is being increased by an enhancement bonus.
The same is true of Armor bonuses. You can only have one. Ablative barrier has one and Magic Vestments grants your clothes one. You have to choose which one to use (they are both armor bonuses in the end).
Now I hit the horse and will leave it to the flies. :)
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Okay, read the spell:
Magic Vestment
School transmutation; Level cleric/oracle 3, inquisitor 3; Domain nobility 3, strength 3, war 3
CASTINGCasting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, DF
EFFECTRange touch
Target armor or shield touched
Duration 1 hour/level
Saving Throw Will negates (harmless, object); Spell Resistance yes (harmless, object)DESCRIPTION
You imbue a suit of armor or a shield with an enhancement bonus of +1 per four caster levels (maximum +5 at 20th level).
An outfit of regular clothing counts as armor that grants no AC bonus for the purpose of this spell.
It just like adding an enhancement bonus to armor through crafting.
It's temporary, and for the purposes of the spell, clothing counts as armor.
It provides an enhancement bonus to the armor bonus.
You have to understand, that the spell improves an armor's bonus to AC.
It does not provide a separate floating enhancement bonus directly to AC.
There are no enhancement bonuses to AC.
Lets assume that cloths provide an armor bonus to AC of zero. The Ablative Barrier just overwrote that and made it a +2, now you add your enhancement bonus, since bonus of different types do indeed stack.
Otherwise, the way you are suggesting, you could not stack magic vestment onto normal armor since normal armor provides an armor bonus.
Okay, read the spell:
Magic Vestment
School transmutation; Level cleric/oracle 3, inquisitor 3; Domain nobility 3, strength 3, war 3
CASTINGCasting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, DF
EFFECTRange touch
Target armor or shield touched
Duration 1 hour/level
Saving Throw Will negates (harmless, object); Spell Resistance yes (harmless, object)DESCRIPTION
You imbue a suit of armor or a shield with an enhancement bonus of +1 per four caster levels (maximum +5 at 20th level).
An outfit of regular clothing counts as armor that grants no AC bonus for the purpose of this spell.
It just like adding an enhancement bonus to armor through crafting.
It's temporary, and for the purposes of the spell, clothing counts as armor.
At no point does this say the spell is giving an armor bonus, in fact it says it gives you an ENHANCEMENT bonus. It does cay that clothing counts as "ARMOR" but it says nothing about Armor Bonus. The spells do stack.
BTW Blackblood you beat me to posting the spell info lol.
Look at any stated monster wearing magical armor. I'll use the Solar, as its the first on the list.
A Solar has +5 full plate armor. Look at its AC line, specifically the part where it breaks down the AC bonuses. You'll notice it says +14 armor, not +9 armor, +5 enhancement bonus. Every other monster with magical armor is the same.
There is no such thing as an enhancement bonus to your AC. An enhancement bonus increases an already existing bonus, in this case an items armor bonus.
Look at any stated monster wearing magical armor. I'll use the Solar, as its the first on the list.
A Solar has +5 full plate armor. Look at its AC line, specifically the part where it breaks down the AC bonuses. You'll notice it says +14 armor, not +9 armor, +5 enhancement bonus. Every other monster with magical armor is the same.
There is no such thing as an enhancement bonus to your AC. An enhancement bonus increases an already existing bonus, in this case an items armor bonus.
However you want to slice it, the fact remains, that bonuses of two different types stack.
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However you want to slice it, the fact remains, that bonuses of two different types stack.Look at any stated monster wearing magical armor. I'll use the Solar, as its the first on the list.
A Solar has +5 full plate armor. Look at its AC line, specifically the part where it breaks down the AC bonuses. You'll notice it says +14 armor, not +9 armor, +5 enhancement bonus. Every other monster with magical armor is the same.
There is no such thing as an enhancement bonus to your AC. An enhancement bonus increases an already existing bonus, in this case an items armor bonus.
How you slice it is very important. BBT is spelling it out for you very clearly, They do not stack for all the reasons he explained already.
But to add my 2 coppers, when you use this spell on armor it adds an enhancement bonus to it like enchanting a magic item. Clothing just happens to start at AC(armor bonus) 0, where as padded is AC(armor bonus) +1, at no time does that imply that the 'enhancement' wording change the fact that the bonus gained is 'armor.'
Enhancement bonus' placed on armor add to the total 'armor' bonus, which is then added to your AC total, etc. You don't change those rules based on the fact you enchanted your t-shirt and socks.
The 'enhancement' bonus is what you add to the base armor, or clothing in this specific scenario, to get your 'armor' bonus total. You don't add the 'enhancement' bonus directly to your Armor Class.
:)
Then explain to me how Magic Vestment ever works.. on anything..
Each type of armor grants an armor bonus to Armor Class
Invisible layers of solid force surround and protect the target, granting that target a +2 armor bonus to AC.
Magic Vestment provides an enhancement to this armor bonus. Yes, i incorrectly said AC in a previous post. But for all intents and purposes ablative barrier is your armor, and should be enhanced via magic vestment.
They already told you that you can't enhance something that is not an armor or shield.
Invisible layers of solid force are not an armor or shield.
Likewise, Bracers of Armor (wondrous item), mage armor (spell), and the shield spell are not armor or shield.
You're beating your head against the wall trying to get cheap AC. It doesn't work.
==Aelryinth
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Then explain to me how Magic Vestment ever works.. on anything..
Sure, at max level casting of Magic Vestment(+5), you can turn Padded Armor from granting 1 'armor bonus' to 6 'armor bonus' by granting it a +5 'enhancement' bonus.
(Or, per the example of clothing worn, Socks +5 (a +5 armor bonus to AC)
They already told you that you can't enhance something that is not an armor or shield.
Invisible layers of solid force are not an armor or shield.
Likewise, Bracers of Armor (wondrous item), mage armor (spell), and the shield spell are not armor or shield.
You're beating your head against the wall trying to get cheap AC. It doesn't work.
==Aelryinth
Yeah after I re-read my last post, I saw I where I've been going wrong. The spell ablative barrier acts like a suit of armor, it doesn't make your cloths a suit of armor.
You cant target the spell to enhance it. I take it all back!
I can see where this would be very confusing.. They should probably make it more clear.
I'll try to make this as simple as possible.
You'll notice that in the above description it clearly states that an Enhancement bonus to armor or natural armor increase the armor or natural armor bonus.
Example:
1. +1 Chain Shirt
A Chain Shirt normally provides an armor bonus of +4. With the +1 Enhancement bonus it now provides +5 armor bonus.
2. Ablative Barrier and +5 Magic Vestment Clothes
The spell Ablative Barrier provides a +2 armor bonus.
Magic Vestment states that Clothes provide a +0 armor bonus for the purpose of this spell. With the +5 Enhancement bonus the Clothes now provide a +5 armor bonus.
Armor bonuses don't stack. So you would take the higher +5 armor bonus from the Magic Vestment Clothes and not the bonus from Ablative Barrier.
To say otherwise is to be ignorant of the rules as written.
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Gold armor has a -2 AC penalty. So it's starting AC bonus is -1.You could cast Magic Vestment on a Gold Armored Kilt, and increase it's armor bonus(+0) to AC.
You would not get this nonexistant enhancement bonus to AC.
I am not sure how to make it more clear.
I was unaware that materials can bring the armor/shield bonus below zero.
Armor Bonus and Enhancement Bonus are fundamentally different bonuses and, thus, stack. There is no way around it. You can have a +2 Armor Bonus, a +5 Enhancement Bonus, a +1 Natural Armor Bonus, a +1 Deflection Bonus and a +1 Dodge Bonus. Each one of those is a different bonus. GMs might even allow an Alchemical Bonus, for example. Either way, all different and all stack.
Armor Bonus and Enhancement Bonus are fundamentally different bonuses and, thus, stack. There is no way around it. You can have a +2 Armor Bonus, a +5 Enhancement Bonus, a +1 Natural Armor Bonus, a +1 Deflection Bonus and a +1 Dodge Bonus. Each one of those is a different bonus. GMs might even allow an Alchemical Bonus, for example. Either way, all different and all stack.
How about you actually read the description of an Enhancement bonus. You can't have an "Enhancement" bonus to AC, it modifies armor, natural armor, or shield bonuses.
If it worked the way you and others think it does then a few problems arise.
If what you and others say is true than the following is also true.
Mage Armor = +4 Armor Bonus
+5 Padded Armor = +1 Armor +5 Enhancement
For a total of +9 AC. Is that correct?
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Armor Bonus and Enhancement Bonus are fundamentally different bonuses and, thus, stack. There is no way around it. You can have a +2 Armor Bonus, a +5 Enhancement Bonus, a +1 Natural Armor Bonus, a +1 Deflection Bonus and a +1 Dodge Bonus. Each one of those is a different bonus. GMs might even allow an Alchemical Bonus, for example. Either way, all different and all stack.
Please read above explanations.
I'll try to make this as simple as possible.
** spoiler omitted **
Armor bonuses don't stack. So you would take the higher +5 armor bonus from the Magic Vestment Clothes and not the bonus from Ablative Barrier.
To say otherwise is to be ignorant of the rules as written.
Magic Vestment doesn't provide and Armor Bonus, it's an Enhancement Bonus. It is Ablative Barrier that provides an Armor Bonus.
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Armor Bonus and Enhancement Bonus are fundamentally different bonuses and, thus, stack. There is no way around it. You can have a +2 Armor Bonus, a +5 Enhancement Bonus, a +1 Natural Armor Bonus, a +1 Deflection Bonus and a +1 Dodge Bonus. Each one of those is a different bonus. GMs might even allow an Alchemical Bonus, for example. Either way, all different and all stack.How about you actually read the description of an Enhancement bonus. You can't have an "Enhancement" bonus to AC, it modifies armor, natural armor, or shield bonuses.
If it worked the way you and others think it does then a few problems arise.
If what you and others say is true than the following is also true.
Mage Armor = +4 Armor Bonus
+5 Padded Armor = +1 Armor +5 Enhancement
For a total of +9 AC. Is that correct?
No. +5 padded armor already has a +5 enhancement bonus, or a +6 AC bonus total.
Would a +4 Enhancement Bonus from Bull Strength Stack with a +2 Inherent Bonus to Strength since they are both increasing Strength, then? Or no?
Would a +4 Enhancement Bonus from Bull Strength Stack with a +2 Inherent Bonus to Strength since they are both increasing Strength, then? Or no?
Yes, they stack. They are different bonus types applied to the same thing (your strength score).
That has nothing to do with this thread though. Enhancement bonuses are never added directly into your AC, they always increase a suit of armors armor bonus, or a shields shield bonus.