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My GM says that because of the wording in the spell, if my eidolon dies, I cannot cast Summon Eidolon to bring it back.
His belief is because of the wording from AdvPH: (page 55)
A summoner can summon his eidolon in a ritual that
takes 1 minute to perform. When summoned in this way,
the eidolon hit points are unchanged from the last time it
was summoned. The only exception to this is if the eidolon
was slain, in which case it returns with half its normal hit
points. The eidolon does not heal naturally. The eidolon
remains until dismissed by the summoner (a standard
action). If the eidolon is sent back to its home plane due to
death, it cannot be summoned again until the following
day. The eidolon cannot be sent back to its home plane
by means of dispel magic, but spells such as dismissal and
banishment work normally. If the summoner is unconscious,
asleep, or killed, his eidolon is immediately banished.
And the wording of the spell "Summon Eidolon": page 248
You open a rift between dimensions that summons your eidolon.
Treat this as if you had summoned your eidolon normally, except
that it only remains with you for the duration of this spell. While
summoned in this way, your eidolon cannot touch any creature
warded by protection from evil or a similar effect and your eidolon
can be sent back to its home plane by dispel magic.
If you cast this spell while your eidolon is already on your
plane, this spell has no effect. This spell allows you to summon
your eidolon even if it has been returned to its home plane due
to damage.
He says because of the wording "Treat this as if you had summoned your eidolon normally", that is cannot be summoned for a full day, no matter what. I just want an official ruling on it.
Thanks
and he totally skipped over this line ?
"This spell allows you to summon
your eidolon even if it has been returned to its home plane due
to damage."
tell him to keep reading and let you have you major class ability :P
Summoned monsters don't die they simply go to 0 HP or less and are returned to the plane they were dragged from.
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Interesting, it change one of the basic rules about summoning:
Summoning: A summoning spell instantly brings a creature or object to a place you designate. When the spell ends or is dispelled, a summoned creature is instantly sent back to where it came from, but a summoned object is not sent back unless the spell description specifically indicates this. A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower, but it is not really dead. It takes 24 hours for the creature to reform, during which time it can't be summoned again.
When the spell that summoned a creature ends and the creature disappears, all the spells it has cast expire. A summoned creature cannot use any innate summoning abilities it may have.
The summoner is more a class of exceptions to the existing rules that a class that follow those rules.
I am more looking for a definitive "Yes, it can be re-summoned" or "No, it cannot be."
Yes it could be brought back on a temporary basis, but it would show up with half hit points.
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I am more looking for a definitive "Yes, it can be re-summoned" or "No, it cannot be."
Yes, it can be re-summoned, with half HP and effects like augment summoning, and is in all ways treated as a normal Summon Monster spell, except that the thing it summons is your eidolon.
Yes, it can be re-summoned. Summoner rules trump the general summoning rules. (It even says so in the spell description, so not sure why your GM would fight that.)
Neither am I. Spells override general rules. I think he is just getting stuck on the wording.
...not exactly sure which part.
The Summon Eidolon spell allows you to bring back your eidolon if it died from damage. That usually means hp damage but might also include Con damage. But not from another way of dying like say a "save or die" spell. That is how I read it at least.
But in the most common case, where the eidolon "died" from being on less than 0 hp, yes it can be summoned back using Summon Eidolon spell. And it will return with half hp.
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I am more looking for a definitive "Yes, it can be re-summoned" or "No, it cannot be."
Yes, it can absolutely be resummoned. This line: "This spell allows you to summon your eidolon even if it has been returned to its home plane due
to damage." makes it very VERY clear.
I am more looking for a definitive "Yes, it can be re-summoned" or "No, it cannot be."Yes, it can absolutely be resummoned. This line: "This spell allows you to summon your eidolon even if it has been returned to its home plane due
to damage." makes it very VERY clear.
I think he interprets that as:
a) specialty attacks, that can dismiss it (???)b) if i (the summoner) gets attacked.
c) It goes to zero or less (but, not killed)
d) It does not say "...returned to its home plane due to DEATH."
It is rough. Starting a campaign tomorrow, and he asked me to create a "tank". I come back with this class, and he seems to be fighting me tooth and nail on it.
I thought i had a great melee soak, that can protect me and the other casters (large size, reach). But, he rather I play a samurai or cavalier (or any of the other classes that have a "call you out" ability).
If you have any suggestions on this, i would love to hear them.
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I am more looking for a definitive "Yes, it can be re-summoned" or "No, it cannot be."Yes, it can absolutely be resummoned. This line: "This spell allows you to summon your eidolon even if it has been returned to its home plane due
to damage." makes it very VERY clear.I think he interprets that as:
a) specialty attacks, that can dismiss it (???)
b) if i (the summoner) gets attacked.
c) It goes to zero or less (but, not killed)
d) It does not say "...returned to its home plane due to DEATH."It is rough. Starting a campaign tomorrow, and he asked me to create a "tank". I come back with this class, and he seems to be fighting me tooth and nail on it.
I thought i had a great melee soak, that can protect me and the other casters (large size, reach). But, he rather I play a samurai or cavalier (or any of the other classes that have a "call you out" ability).
If you have any suggestions on this, i would love to hear them.
Don't get shoehorned into playing something you don't want to. A "call you out" ability isn't necessary, and the concept of a "tank" isn't either. All you need is a guy who can take the hits and present a target to the enemies. If you really want a tank you'll need reach and the stand still feat. Probably a large brawler fighter. The eidolon is a totally legit tank idea, and even without the summon eidolon spell, summoning 1d4+1 dire tigers as a standard action is just as solid of a tanking strategy.
Tell him the eid can tank, if he doesn't like it, suggest he roll an npc for the role he thinks needs to be filled as this seems to be what you want to play.
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I am more looking for a definitive "Yes, it can be re-summoned" or "No, it cannot be."Yes, it can absolutely be resummoned. This line: "This spell allows you to summon your eidolon even if it has been returned to its home plane due
to damage." makes it very VERY clear.I think he interprets that as:
a) specialty attacks, that can dismiss it (???)
b) if i (the summoner) gets attacked.
c) It goes to zero or less (but, not killed)
d) It does not say "...returned to its home plane due to DEATH."It is rough. Starting a campaign tomorrow, and he asked me to create a "tank". I come back with this class, and he seems to be fighting me tooth and nail on it.
I thought i had a great melee soak, that can protect me and the other casters (large size, reach). But, he rather I play a samurai or cavalier (or any of the other classes that have a "call you out" ability).
If you have any suggestions on this, i would love to hear them.
Point him here: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic#TOC-Conjuration
Summoning: a summoning spell instantly brings a creature or object to a place you designate. When the spell ends or is dispelled, a summoned creature is instantly sent back to where it came from, but a summoned object is not sent back unless the spell description specifically indicates this. A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower, but it is not really dead. It takes 24 hours for the creature to reform, during which time it can't be summoned again.
Your eidolon counts as a summoned creature, so if it drops to 0 HP or lower it is sent back. it doesn't matter if it hits negative CON or not, it's not dead. And the spell Summon Eidolon specifically allows you to resummon the eidolon even before the 24 hours is up, at half its max HP.
If he doesn't want to follow the rules, he's the GM, but he really should allow this.
The GM is telling you what to play and ignoring what the spell's text explicitly states. I wouldn't be at all surprised if monsters from your Summon Monster SLA started arguing with you or attacking you.
Just get out of there. There's no mechanical solution to a hostile GM who wants to play with himself.
I come back with this class, and he seems to be fighting me tooth and nail on it.
Sounds like he might hate the class, but is hesitant to just disallow the summoner.
Your eidolon counts as a summoned creature, so if it drops to 0 HP or lower it is sent back.
Are you 100% positive the text "The eidolon remains until dismissed by the summoner (a standard action)." doesn't override that? Because the HP restoration only happens if the Eidolon dies. If the eidolon is forced to leave at zero HP, it isn't dead. Next time it shows since it did not die, it is still at zero HP thanks to the specific healing rules of the eidolon. It would leave immediately again, because it was at zero HP.
Your eidolon counts as a summoned creature, so if it drops to 0 HP or lower it is sent back.Are you 100% positive the text "The eidolon remains until dismissed by the summoner (a standard action)." doesn't override that? Because the HP restoration only happens if the Eidolon dies. If the eidolon is forced to leave at zero HP, it isn't dead. Next time it shows since it did not die, it is still at zero HP thanks to the specific healing rules of the eidolon. It would leave immediately again, because it was at zero HP.
The rules state:
"Eidolons are treated as summoned creatures, except that they are not sent back to their home plane until reduced to a number of negative hit points equal to or greater than their Constitution score."Advanced Player's Guide. Page 55. Under the Class Power, "Eidolon". 1st paragraph. Sentence 4.
I'd like to ask about Riuken's statement that "...in all ways treated as a normal Summon Monster spell, except that the thing it summons is your eidolon"
It is my understanding based on some previous threads that the Summon Eidolon spell counts as summoning the eidolon through the normal ritual in terms of how it interacts with the Summoner's Summon Monster SLA. I'm not sure which ruling is correct, but this is an important distinction since otherwise a higher level Summoner could have the eidolon and his highest level SLA monster out at the same time by using just a 2nd level spell slot (granted the eidolon would be at half HP). Has there been any official clarification on this?
To the OP - The DM might be grasping at straws because he's frustrated by the fact that even if he manages to kill the eidolon it "comes back" the very next battle. If the DM considers the eidolon overpowered this opinion could be tough to change, but you could try pointing out that the Summon Eidolon spell takes a full round to cast and therefore is extremely subject to being disrupted by attacks. Enemies who let you stand around casting for a full round without hitting you to disrupt the spell probably deserve to get attacked by your eidolon.
Honestly, the monsters you can call in with your SLA are pretty effective, so another solution might be to show the DM that the eidolon isn't really much worse than the stuff you can call in with a standard action (a celestial leopard/lion/dire tiger summoned in position to pounce an enemy while using smite evil could really reinforce that point)
Keep in mind that "Summon Eidolon" is not a 'spell'. It's a ritual that was categorized as, iirc, a supernatural ability. So rules regarding "summon spells" are moot unless explicitly brought up by the wording of the Summon Eidolon ritual.
Excuse me?
The spell "Summon Eidolon": Advanced Player's Guide. page 248 (lower left corner)
You open a rift between dimensions that summons your eidolon.
Treat this as if you had summoned your eidolon normally, except
that it only remains with you for the duration of this spell. While
summoned in this way, your eidolon cannot touch any creature
warded by protection from evil or a similar effect and your eidolon
can be sent back to its home plane by dispel magic.
If you cast this spell while your eidolon is already on your
plane, this spell has no effect. This spell allows you to summon
your eidolon even if it has been returned to its home plane due
to damage.
To the OP - The DM might be grasping at straws because he's frustrated by the fact that even if he manages to kill the eidolon it "comes back" the very next battle. If the DM considers the eidolon overpowered this opinion could be tough to change, but you could try pointing out that the Summon Eidolon spell takes a full round to cast and therefore is extremely subject to being disrupted by attacks. Enemies who let you stand around casting for a full round without hitting you to disrupt the spell probably deserve to get attacked by your eidolon.
Honestly, the monsters you can call in with your SLA are pretty effective, so another solution might be to show the DM that the eidolon isn't really much worse than the stuff you can call in with a standard action (a celestial leopard/lion/dire tiger summoned in position to pounce an enemy while using smite evil could really reinforce that point)
To answer you, it a whole other thread that I started. Titled "Question about tanking"
Excuse me?"Treat this as if you had summoned your eidolon normally [...]"
Are you saying that the spell, is not a spell?
I notice the quote you just posted, only uses the first half of the sentence.
Would you please finish the sentence, in its entirety?
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By casting the spell, you are effectively performing the ritual as a full-round action instead of a minute.
Thus, you wouldn't improve your eidolon as you would do with any other summoned creature if you have the feat empowering your summons ; and you could not use your "Summon Monster (Sp)" spell-like ability since your eidolon would be treated as summoned through normal means.
By casting the spell, you are effectively performing the ritual as a full-round action instead of a minute.
Thus, you wouldn't improve your eidolon as you would do with any other summoned creature if you have the feat empowering your summons ; and you could not use your "Summon Monster (Sp)" spell-like ability since your eidolon would be treated as summoned through normal means.
Torn between proving Maxximilius wrong, and keeping on topic.
(Maxximilius:
First, just finish the sentence you started. Otherwise, flags!
also:
1) Summon Eidolon is a spell (see above for references)
2) The spell is a Summon spell (because well, look at the title of the spell)
3) Feat: Augment summoning: full quote of its description:
Each creature you conjure with any summon spell gains a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength and Constitution for the duration of the spell that summoned it.
Source 1
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/augment-summoning---final
Source 2
Core Pathfinder Rulebook. Page 118. Right column.)
Sorry everyone, I could not resist.
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1) Summon Eidolon is a spell (see above for references)
2) The spell is a Summon spell (because well, look at the title of the spell)
3) Feat: Augment summoning: full quote of its description:
Each creature you conjure with any summon spell gains a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength and Constitution for the duration of the spell that summoned it.Source 1
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/augment-summoning---final
Source 2
Core Pathfinder Rulebook. Page 118. Right column.)Sorry everyone, I could not resist.
And again, I quote the spell : "treat this as if you had summoned your eidolon normally".
To better understand the nuance, note that the effect of this spell is not "cast it, and wow, you summon your eidolon !". It is "cast it, once you are done this allows you to summon your eidolon as normal", but with the advantages of :
- being faster to summon (1 round/1 minute)
- being able to quickly summon your dead eidolon back from the dead (invaluable)
... and the drawback of :
- being for a much shorter duration (1 round per level/1 day)
- being not able to benefit from the Augment Summons feat.
To everyone:
The Sentence Maxximillius keeps quoting goes:
Treat this as if you had summoned your eidolon normally, except that it only remains with you for the duration of this spell.
hmmm, sounds like a summon spell to me
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To everyone:
The Sentence Maxximillius keeps quoting goes:
Treat this as if you had summoned your eidolon normally, except that it only remains with you for the duration of this spell.hmmm, sounds like a summon spell to me
Nope, it sounds like a spell which effects are :
- 1 round spellcasting time.
- 1 minute/level duration.
- Summon your eidolon as if you were summoning it normally (so, go to the summoner's Eidolon class feature description and follow exactly what it says, including the (Su) descriptor and the fact it isn't treated as a summon spell).
Exceptions trumping rules :
- This eidolon remains with you only for the duration of the spell.
- This eidolon cannot touch any creature warded by protection from evil or a similar effect and can be sent back to its home plane by dispel magic.
I guess you could argue either way for the Augment Summons feat to work with it (or not), but it is more than ambiguous. Remember that an enhancement bonus would not stack with any item or spell like Bull's Strength or the stat-improving belts.
I am more looking for a definitive "Yes, it can be re-summoned" or "No, it cannot be."Yes, it can absolutely be resummoned. This line: "This spell allows you to summon your eidolon even if it has been returned to its home plane due
to damage." makes it very VERY clear.I think he interprets that as:
a) specialty attacks, that can dismiss it (???)
b) if i (the summoner) gets attacked.
c) It goes to zero or less (but, not killed)
d) It does not say "...returned to its home plane due to DEATH."It is rough. Starting a campaign tomorrow, and he asked me to create a "tank". I come back with this class, and he seems to be fighting me tooth and nail on it.
I thought i had a great melee soak, that can protect me and the other casters (large size, reach). But, he rather I play a samurai or cavalier (or any of the other classes that have a "call you out" ability).
If you have any suggestions on this, i would love to hear them.
Sorry for you, I take it this is the same goon that wanted you to make whatever character you wanted then told you the character you made wasn't a tank?
Nope, it sounds like a spell which effects are :
- 1 round spellcasting time.
- 1 minute/level duration.
- Summon your eidolon as if you were summoning it normally (so, go to the summoner's Eidolon class feature description and follow exactly what it says, including the (Su) descriptor and the fact it isn't treated as a summon spell).
Exceptions trumping rules :
- This eidolon remains with you only for the duration of the spell.
- This eidolon cannot touch any creature warded by protection from evil or a similar effect and can be sent back to its home plane by dispel magic.I guess you could argue either way for the Augment Summons feat to work with it (or not), but it is more than ambiguous. Remember that an enhancement bonus would not stack with any item or spell like Bull's Strength or the stat-improving belts.
So...
It is a spell (contradicting what you said earlier)It has summon descriptor (in both title, and school)
the feat SPECIFICALLY says "SUMMON" and "SPELL" (not to mention "SUMMON SPELL")
Unless a regular summon spell is completely different.... why would it not work?
Let me check the differences between this spell and a regular summon spell. Which is....?
Nope, it sounds like a spell which effects are :
- 1 round spellcasting time.
- 1 minute/level duration.
- Summon your eidolon as if you were summoning it normally (so, go to the summoner's Eidolon class feature description and follow exactly what it says, including the (Su) descriptor and the fact it isn't treated as a summon spell)....etc, etc...
Didn't you forget to list the ONE major qualifier that settles whether this spell is affected by Augment Summoning feat?
School conjuration (summoning)
That is what makes it a summon spell, period, thus qualifying it for the Augment Summoning feat. And its use in this manner is long-settled by developers now, anyway, so I'm not sure what you two are arguing about.
Nope, it sounds like a spell which effects are :
- 1 round spellcasting time.
- 1 minute/level duration.
- Summon your eidolon as if you were summoning it normally (so, go to the summoner's Eidolon class feature description and follow exactly what it says, including the (Su) descriptor and the fact it isn't treated as a summon spell)....etc, etc...Didn't you forget to list the ONE major qualifier that settles whether this spell is affected by Augment Summoning feat?
School conjuration (summoning)
That is what makes it a summon spell, period, thus qualifying it for the Augment Summoning feat. And its use in this manner is long-settled by developers now, anyway, so I'm not sure what you two are arguing about.
You are my hero.
Yes, it can absolutely be resummoned. This line: "This spell allows you to summon your eidolon even if it has been returned to its home plane due to damage." makes it very VERY clear.
To be fair, and the very reason I found this thread, it is NOT "VERY" clear. Very clear would be"when the eidolon is reduced to 0 hp" or "when the eidolon is killed". The way it is worded it implies there are other ways it can take damage and be dismissed or banished. I completely agree with the assessment. In other words, it can be re-summoned after death by the summon eidolon spell at one half hit points. It is not VERY clear for everyone however.
Oh, and HI everyone! First post!