| 2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Does this give you an auto-success since a sleeping target is considered willing?
Where in RAW does it say that sleeping equals willing? How does someone who is asleep give consent to something?
Where in RAW does it say that sleeping equals willing? How does someone who is asleep give consent to something?
Here:
Some spells restrict you to willing targets only. Declaring yourself as a willing target is something that can be done at any time (even if you’re f lat-footed or it isn’t your turn). Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing, but a character who is conscious but immobile or helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed, pinned, or stunned) is not automatically willing.
The text is not clear. It seems to imply that "willing" = no saves or spell resistance; but it doesn't actually come out and say so.
1) Some spells require the target to be willing.
2) Scrying has no such text.
3) Being a willing target does not mean you have no saving throw.
Summary: The whole statement about unconscious creatures being willing is for the purposes of spells that specifically call out that you must be a willing target. It does not have a direct impact on saving throws.
Note: If you are a willing target then as a SECOND effect you may CHOOSE to fail your saving throw. Being willing does not automatically mean you fail your saving throw.
- Gauss
1) Some spells require the target to be willing.
2) Scrying has no such text.
3) Being a willing target does not mean you have no saving throw.
Summary: The whole statement about unconscious creatures being willing is for the purposes of spells that specifically call out that you must be a willing target. It does not have a direct impact on saving throws.
Note: If you are a willing target then as a SECOND effect you may CHOOSE to fail your saving throw. Being willing does not automatically mean you fail your saving throw.
- Gauss
So... if you're asleep you automatically have to save against everything, since you can't make the decision to not save? Stabilize just got a lot worse.
Seriously, that's silly. If you're willing you're not making a saving throw. Same as an unconscious character isn't going to be able to save against a fireball.
I did not say they had to make a saving throw. I said they had a choice whether or not to make the saving throw. There is nothing in the rules that says you cannot choose to save while unconcious. I make choices in my sleep all the time. Whether to respond to a sound. Whether to wake up. What move to make while playing chess.
Voluntarily Giving up a Saving Throw: A creature can voluntarily forego a saving throw and willingly accept a spell’s result. Even a character with a special resistance to magic can suppress this quality.
Nothing in there about sleep removing your choice.
This is really three questions:
1) Can a person voluntarily fail a saving throw while unconcious? Yes
2) Is a person who is unconcious allowed a saving throw? Yes
3) Is a person unconcious a 'willing target' for the purposes of those spells and effects that require a 'willing target'? Yes
Willing target has nothing to do with saving. I was using willing in a 'non-rules' way and it apparently confused you. I am sorry.
- Gauss
As many times as I have had to argue this I keep forgetting to add it to my list. I also wish it was written better. Normally the issue is not resolved so quickly.
For an example of a spell that features "willing" targets, see teleport.
"Willing target" and "willingly fails a saving throw" is different things even if they sound similar.
Any saving throw can be failed on purpose if you want. That can be done at any time.
Other spells require the target to be willing. If you're unwilling the spell doesn't work. Period. There's no save involved usually, it works if the target is willing and it fails if he's not.
The paragraph about unconscious targets being willing refers to that second one. So you can knock someone unconscious and then teleport away with him. If he's conscious you couldn't.
This little detail just got to be mentioned:
Sleeping isn't being unconcious.
Game mechanically you are unconcious when you,
A) Are dying
B) Have taken more nonlethal damage than your current hp.
C) Has a str, wis, or cha score of 0 (and most likely int, based on the GM ruling on being comatose).
D) Are subject to anything else that specifically states unconcious.
|
Unconscious:Unconscious creatures are knocked out and helpless. Unconsciousness can result from having negative hit points (but not more than the creature's Constitution score), or from nonlethal damage in excess of current hit points.
I am not seeing that the listed reasons for being unconscious are the only ways to become so.
Seems to be a short list of possible ways, and that's it.Being asleep is a reasonable way to become unconscious.
That makes sense, BBT. I would still stipulate that unconscious = willing is only for spells which specifically require the target to be willing. The player gets the choice to make the save or not for the other spells.
To rule otherwise would lead to events where all you have to do is wait for your target to sleep (sneak up during camp at night, cast sleep, do enough non-lethal damage, or any other way) and then cast any Will Save spell and auto-succeed. For example, casting Geas, Lesser. It would auto succeed. Just wait for the target to sleep, and we've got ourselves an automatic multi-day spell. Or Imprisonment auto-succeeds.
Additionally, there are spells that specifically target unconscious (or at least very likely to be unconscious) characters.
A big example of this is a simple 0-level spell: Bleed. It only works against those who are below 0 HP and likely unconscious; so those the spell specifically targets would auto-fail their Will Save? Doesn't make any sense.
Or what about Death Knell? It specifically targets creatures with -1 HP or fewer. Will Save or die. And as the vast majority of characters with negative HP are unconscious, they auto-fail their will, right? Character hits -1, cast Death Knell, auto-kill.
The fact that there are spells that specifically target unconscious creatures tells me that being unconscious does not assume the character is willing.
@HaraldKlak: They don't say that you become unconscious when you fall asleep, for the same reason that they don't say that you fall prone when you go unconscious: it's a long enough book already, and it goes without saying. Just common sense.
Thanks to Gauss, Quatar and others for the clarification. So, what other spells *require* a willing target, besides teleport?
Fredrik:
Here is a partial list:
Animal Shapes
Astral Projection
Dimension Door
Etherealness
Gaseous Form
Levitate
Plane Shift
Polymorph
Rage
Reduce Animal
Sequester
Telepathic Bond
Teleport
Transport Via plants
the list goes on.
There are other spells that do not have willing in the target but state that if a creature is unwilling it gets a save.
- Gauss
@HaraldKlak: They don't say that you become unconscious when you fall asleep, for the same reason that they don't say that you fall prone when you go unconscious: it's a long enough book already, and it goes without saying. Just common sense.
Thanks to Gauss, Quatar and others for the clarification. So, what other spells *require* a willing target, besides teleport?
Animal Shapes
Astral ProjectionDimension Door
Etherealness
Gaseous Form
Levitate
Mark of Justice (willing or restrained)
Plane Shift
Polymorph
Rage
Raise Dead (soul must be willing)
Reduce Animal
Reincarnate (soul must be willing)
Sequester
Telepathic Bond
Teleport
Transport via Plants
Word of Recall
There's probably more that I missed.
Edit: Ninja'd! Damn you Guass! *shakes tiny fist*
Wow, I had no idea that there were so many! Thanks! *list'd* :)
@BBT and Frederik: My argument is that "Sleeping isn't unconscious" because well... when you sleep you aren't unconcious, you only have a reduced level of conciousness.
That is how it is in the real world, and in my opinion, if it is supposed to work differently in Pathfinder, there should at least some indication in the books.
In some of the few part of the book where sleep is mentioned, they don't suggest unconciousness. The sleep spell speficies the helpless condition and does not mention unconciousness. The helpless condition mention sleeping and being unconcious as seperate sources for the condition. If there was a deliberate choice that sleeping should equal unconciousness, then there were amble opportunity to indicate it.
As it isn't suggested in the rules, I think going with the real world logic that sleeping isn't being unconscious, is correct.
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
|
If sleeping made you automatically fail saving throws then the spell nightmare would need to be completely rewritten.
I agree with the idea that sleeping targets are willing for spells that can only target willing creatures, but not willing in the sense of giving up saving throws. That's the interpretation that seems to make the most sense.
Most of those spells that require willing targets are transportation or buffs. If your enemy has access to you while sleeping you are lucky you're not getting CdGed.
Rule of Cool: Target gets a save. If failed proceed as normal. If the target makes the save, not only does the target notice the scry, the target can also see the caster (as a ghostly image at the point of the scry) and interact with the caster verbally, including casting spells with verbal components. If the target wakes up, their spell(s) end.
The text about a summoner's eidolon makes reference to the summoner being "unconscious, asleep, or killed". That could be taken as evidence that unconscious and asleep are distinct conditions. The Sleep spell description mentions that a character who falls victim to this spell is helpless but says nothing about him being unconscious.
Given that a sleeping character is not aware of his surroundings and thus cannot make a decision about whether to attempt or forego a saving throw, the most reasonable way to handle it would probably be to have such a character attempt a save against any spell except one specifically identified as "harmless", which he would automatically accept.
Given that a sleeping character is not aware of his surroundings
It is debatable whether that is indeed a "given". After all, sleeping characters get to make Perception checks to wake up, albeit at a -10 point penalty.
Where in RAW does it say that sleeping equals willing? How does someone who is asleep give consent to something?Here:
Some spells restrict you to willing targets only. Declaring yourself as a willing target is something that can be done at any time (even if you’re f lat-footed or it isn’t your turn). Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing, but a character who is conscious but immobile or helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed, pinned, or stunned) is not automatically willing.
And that paragraph only applies to spells that require willing recipients, like teleport. This section is part of why a K.O.'ed ally can come with when the party teleports, etc.
If a hostile priest casts plane shift just on a unconscious target as the attacking version of the spell, the unconscious target gets the normal save. OTOH, if the Priest uses the up to 8 join hands and travel together version of plane shift, the unconscious target is treated as willing because of being unconscious.
PLANE SHIFT
School conjuration (teleportation); Level cleric 5, sorcerer/wizard 7
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, F (a forked metal rod attuned to the plane of travel)
Range touch
Target creature touched, or up to eight willing creatures joining hands
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw Will negates; Spell Resistance yes
You move yourself or some other creature to another plane of existence or alternate dimension. If several willing persons link hands in a circle, as many as eight can be affected by the plane shift at the same time. Precise accuracy as to a particular arrival location on the intended plane is nigh impossible. From the Material Plane, you can reach any other plane, though you appear 5 to 500 miles (5d%) from your intended destination. Plane shift transports creatures instantaneously and then ends. The creatures need to find other means if they are to travel back (including casting plane shift again).
A parallel situation occurs with (harmless) descriptor spells, which change automatically assumed saves, to where a save is only rolled if a character WANTS to.
Magic... Saving Throw...
(harmless): The spell is usually beneficial, not harmful, but a targeted creature can attempt a saving throw if it desires.