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I don't know if this is possible but here's how it works:
1. Pick Tengu as your race and select Claw Attack as alternate racial trait. This gives you 2 claw attacks in addition to the bite attack you already have and you are treated as having Improved Unarmed Strike for qualifying for other feats. This gives you 3 natural attacks at 1st level.
2. Pick rogue or ninja for sneak attack.
3. Pick Multiattack as your 1st level feat. Your secondary natural attacks are only at -2 instead of -5.
4. Pick Two Weapon Fighting as level 3 feat and use 2 light weapons.
I'm now wondering if you have 5 attacks all with only a -2 modifier. Firstly, we have 3 natural attacks and the claw attacks can be with your clawed feet. We follow up with 2 more attacks with light weapons. Is this legal?
Imagine if you are flanking. You remove your -2 penalty and if you hit with all attacks then your sneak damage alone at 3rd level would be 10d6.
With natural attacks, you're fairly easily able to get a lot of nice attacks, and if they are sneak attacks, all the more powerful.
In short, it would work.
I do believe that most claw attacks are written with the intent of being on the hands, but that's just a hunch. Otherwise all sorts of shenanigans can occur.
I do believe that most claw attacks are written with the intent of being on the hands, but that's just a hunch. Otherwise all sorts of shenanigans can occur.
Yes, I agree that RAI would in most cases be with the hands. However, the Claw Attack racial attribute mentions that you now qualify for any feat requiring Improved Unarmed Strike. By RAI and RAW, unarmed strikes can be accomplished with any part of the body. Taking this into account, perhaps this build qualifies as legal both for RAI and RAW.
For Tengu I think it would make more sense if the claws were on the feet. They are a friggin bird and do you see a lot of birds with claws on their wings?With natural attacks, you're fairly easily able to get a lot of nice attacks, and if they are sneak attacks, all the more powerful.
In short, it would work.
I do believe that most claw attacks are written with the intent of being on the hands, but that's just a hunch. Otherwise all sorts of shenanigans can occur.
I was going to say the same thing about Tengus, then I looked at the provided picture...and lo' and behold, they did have the same talons on their hands.
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Actually, it just occured to me that if you were a ninja, you could pull off 6 attacks at 3rd level using your ki to get an extra attack.
Assuming a 16 strength from a 20 point build without magic items, your average damage would be if you hit with all attacks while sneak attacking:
Bite: 1d3 + 2d6 + 3 = 12
Claw: 1d3 + 2d6 + 3 = 12
Claw: 1d3 + 2d6 + 3 = 12
Wakizashi: 1d6 + 2d6 + 3 = 13.5
Wakizashi: 1d6 + 2d6 + 1 = 11.5
Extra Ki Attack: 1d6 + 2d6 + 3 = 13.5
Total Average Damage = 74.5
Not bad for a 3rd level character. :)
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Typically, Monster Feats aren't supposed to be available to PC characters from what I understand, but if your GM allows it, it will work.
As for claw locations, I believe that they are supposed to be on hands, but Eidolons can have 1 set on feet and the tengu ability doesn't say where they are located. I probably wouldn't allow them on the feet, but if your GM lets you, then yes, you can do this.
Personally, I would just take the bite and claws, not use weapons at all, and have three attacks at full BAB that deal sneak attack, get full strength bonus and full power attack bonus, and not bother with TWF. 3 Primary Natural Attacks rules.
Typically, Monster Feats aren't supposed to be available to PC characters from what I understand, but if your GM allows it, it will work.
I'm not sure that this is a monster only feat. I'm using Hero Lab and it allows me to make the selection. Hero Lab might not be perfect in the rules interpretation but my understanding of the software is there are very few errors. In fact, I have never come across one personally.
Personally, I would just take the bite and claws, not use weapons at all, and have three attacks at full BAB that deal sneak attack, get full strength bonus and full power attack bonus, and not bother with TWF. 3 Primary Natural Attacks rules.
I agree that the character build is quite workable with just the natural attacks and it would mean you are not suffering from -2 to hit. It would also save you 2 feats (multiattack and two weapon fighting). But it would be nice to know beyond all doubt if this build as it stands is legal.
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Typically, Monster Feats aren't supposed to be available to PC characters from what I understand, but if your GM allows it, it will work.I'm not sure that this is a monster only feat. I'm using Hero Lab and it allows me to make the selection. Hero Lab might not be perfect in the rules interpretation but my understanding of the software is there are very few errors. In fact, I have never come across one personally.
Personally, I would just take the bite and claws, not use weapons at all, and have three attacks at full BAB that deal sneak attack, get full strength bonus and full power attack bonus, and not bother with TWF. 3 Primary Natural Attacks rules.I agree that the character build is quite workable with just the natural attacks and it would mean you are not suffering from -2 to hit. It would also save you 2 feats (multiattack and two weapon fighting). But it would be nice to know beyond all doubt if this build as it stands is legal.
I mean, mathwise, you're fine
Your two issues are
A: Can a PC take Multiattack?
B: Do the claws have to be on the hands, in which case you couldn't wield the swords and use the claws
My gut reaction would be No you cannot take Multiattack and yes, the claws must be on the hands, but I'm not a rules expert.
PCs can take multiattack if they qualify.
Most of the following feats apply specifically to monsters, although some player characters might qualify for them (particularly Craft Construct).
That's the rule from the Bestiary on those set of feats.
Typically, Monster Feats aren't supposed to be available to PC characters from what I understand....
That is not correct at all. It is some strange myth that keeps spreading. Unless you are in PFS the feats are available by default.
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PCs can take multiattack if they qualify.
Most of the following feats apply specifically to monsters, although some player characters might qualify for them (particularly Craft Construct).That's the rule from the Bestiary on those set of feats.
Ah, I misread that, thank you. I think he still has the problem of the claws occupying the hands tho.
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Why not make the primary attack with a two-hander and the off-hand with armor spikes while you're at it? And get two levels in barbarian to get the rage power lesser fiend totem for a gore attack while you rage. This is all legit RAW, but no sane GM would allow it (6 attacks at level 3 if you wanted).
Multiattack would be illigal as a feat only in pathfinder organized play, because of a house rule that they are playing with, but RAW wise it is legal.
As far as i know there has not been a clarification of whether you can have claws on feet, but according to RAW i dont think it is ever specified that it can only be on hands.
atleast that is my 2 cents
Why not make the primary attack with a two-hander and the off-hand with armor spikes while you're at it? And get two levels in barbarian to get the rage power lesser fiend totem for a gore attack while you rage. This is all legit RAW, but no sane GM would allow it (6 attacks at level 3 if you wanted).
Actually it would not be legal to use a gore and a bite attack in the same attack rutine, as they both use the same limb (head), and you can only attack once with each limb.
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Why not make the primary attack with a two-hander and the off-hand with armor spikes while you're at it? And get two levels in barbarian to get the rage power lesser fiend totem for a gore attack while you rage. This is all legit RAW, but no sane GM would allow it (6 attacks at level 3 if you wanted).Actually it would not be legal to use a gore and a bite attack in the same attack rutine, as they both use the same limb (head), and you can only attack once with each limb.
Replace gore attack with claws from lesser beast totem. hand claw x2, feet claw x2, bite, armor spikes (primary attack). You don't even need TWF, so jack your str through the roof. 6 attacks at level 2.
Replace gore attack with claws from lesser beast totem. hand claw x2, feet claw x2, bite, armor spikes (primary attack). You don't even need TWF, so jack your str through the roof. 6 attacks at level 2.
Yes that works. Although you only have those 6 attacks for 8 rounds a day due to the raging requirement, and remember that when you switch out of rage to save the rounds in a combat you are fatigued, gaining -2 to hit. So great nova potential but not really worth it.
I would however look into the rogue talent Offensive Defence, it is so incredibly awsome, especially if you are making 5 attacks with 2 sneak dices per round. (+1 dodge bonus per sneak dice rolled for 1 turn)
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Replace gore attack with claws from lesser beast totem. hand claw x2, feet claw x2, bite, armor spikes (primary attack). You don't even need TWF, so jack your str through the roof. 6 attacks at level 2.Yes that works. Although you only have those 6 attacks for 8 rounds a day due to the raging requirement, and remember that when you switch out of rage to save the rounds in a combat you are fatigued, gaining -2 to hit. So great nova potential but not really worth it.
I would however look into the rogue talent Offensive Defence, it is so incredibly awsome, especially if you are making 5 attacks with 2 sneak dices per round. (+1 dodge bonus per sneak dice rolled for 1 turn)
I guess I'm going the direction of pure barbarian here, so a bit off the concept of maxing sneak attack and more on maxing number of attacks. Of course you could drop the armor spikes at that point to make all the natural attacks primary, freeing up another feat and allowing full str bonus and PA bonus.
I guess I'm going the direction of pure barbarian here, so a bit off the concept of maxing sneak attack and more on maxing number of attacks. Of course you could drop the armor spikes at that point to make all the natural attacks primary, freeing up another feat and allowing full str bonus and PA bonus.Replace gore attack with claws from lesser beast totem. hand claw x2, feet claw x2, bite, armor spikes (primary attack). You don't even need TWF, so jack your str through the roof. 6 attacks at level 2.Yes that works. Although you only have those 6 attacks for 8 rounds a day due to the raging requirement, and remember that when you switch out of rage to save the rounds in a combat you are fatigued, gaining -2 to hit. So great nova potential but not really worth it.
I would however look into the rogue talent Offensive Defence, it is so incredibly awsome, especially if you are making 5 attacks with 2 sneak dices per round. (+1 dodge bonus per sneak dice rolled for 1 turn)
Yes that would work fine then. But personally i wouldnt go with armor spikes at all, due to the fact that it is quite a bit to cheezy. It would work by RAW though, but personally as a GM i would have a word with any player trying to pull stuff like this including armor spikes. \
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I guess I'm going the direction of pure barbarian here, so a bit off the concept of maxing sneak attack and more on maxing number of attacks. Of course you could drop the armor spikes at that point to make all the natural attacks primary, freeing up another feat and allowing full str bonus and PA bonus.Replace gore attack with claws from lesser beast totem. hand claw x2, feet claw x2, bite, armor spikes (primary attack). You don't even need TWF, so jack your str through the roof. 6 attacks at level 2.Yes that works. Although you only have those 6 attacks for 8 rounds a day due to the raging requirement, and remember that when you switch out of rage to save the rounds in a combat you are fatigued, gaining -2 to hit. So great nova potential but not really worth it.
I would however look into the rogue talent Offensive Defence, it is so incredibly awsome, especially if you are making 5 attacks with 2 sneak dices per round. (+1 dodge bonus per sneak dice rolled for 1 turn)
Yes that would work fine then. But personally i wouldnt go with armor spikes at all, due to the fact that it is quite a bit to cheezy. It would work by RAW though, but personally as a GM i would have a word with any player trying to pull stuff like this including armor spikes. \
Never said it wasn't cheesy. As with a previous build I've posted (makes unarmed attacks with 2.5x str bonus on top of 2-hand attacks), the goal was to point out the silliness of the original idea by taking it to it's natural (powergamed) conclusion. Claws on feet isn't legit for PCs. I don't care what RAW says, no reasonable GM will allow it.
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Pshaw. This is nothing compared to a tengu druid with an animal companion or a tengu summoner with an eidolon. Those guys not only get more attacks, they also get more actions and can provide themselves with flanking and teamwork feat benefits too.
Even if you have to get the claws on your hands, why can't you just TWF with unarmed strikes and use the claws and bite?
Afterall, paizo is going hard into the "TWF w/ unarmed is fighting with 2 weapons!" thing. May as well work it to your advantage as the monk class burns...
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Didn't think you could mix a natural weapon sequence with a, err, normal weapon sequence.
You guys are claiming you get both at once. Sounds dodgy.
Main question though: what colour is the tengu?
You can use natural attacks in addition to your regular attacks, but they all become secondary natural attacks, even if they were primary before (as is the case for bite and claw).
Didn't think you could mix a natural weapon sequence with a, err, normal weapon sequence.
Natural Attacks: "Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam). Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack's original type."
I'd apply the TWP penalty to all the natural attacks, so 2xLight Weapons at -2, then 3 naturals at -4
Two-Weapon Fighting penalties don't apply to natural attacks.
There used to be a line in the rules which mentioned TWF penalties when mixing natural attacks, but it conflicted with the bestiary rules and was removed in errata.
Thanks...
(I'd apply the TWP penalty to all the natural attacks, so 2xLight Weapons at -2, then 3 naturals at -4)
That would be a house rule mind you.
Why not make the primary attack with a two-hander and the off-hand with armor spikes while you're at it? And get two levels in barbarian to get the rage power lesser fiend totem for a gore attack while you rage. This is all legit RAW, but no sane GM would allow it (6 attacks at level 3 if you wanted).Actually it would not be legal to use a gore and a bite attack in the same attack rutine, as they both use the same limb (head), and you can only attack once with each limb.
I'm sorry, but where is this rule? Imperial dragons have both bite and gore attacks and it doesn't say anything about them not being able to use both in the same round.
Also, I would just use unarmed striking to get around the "where are the claws" issue. Though I have heard some people debating if you can use TWF with unarmed strikes or not.
yeah you should be able to combo them all...
whether the claws are on your hands or feet doesn't really matter unless you have 4 claws on hand/hand/foot/foot,
since UAS right in the Combat section is described as 'Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts',
so if you only have 2 claws, either your hands OR feet (or headbutt) will be available...
gore is an extra attack option, although it 'conflicts' with using headbutt UAS' with the same 'limb'.
yeah, i really don't know why paizo made that alternate race option,
5 attack rogues are just so OBVIOUS a build with that available.
i guess having one bite attack is OK, but the whole combo just seems bonkers to me.
Actually it would not be legal to use a gore and a bite attack in the same attack rutine, as they both use the same limb (head), and you can only attack once with each limb.I'm sorry, but where is this rule? Imperial dragons have both bite and gore attacks and it doesn't say anything about them not being able to use both in the same round.
That rule doesn't exist. S/He's confusing the rule for using Natural and Manufactured weapons, which can't use the same limb wielding a weapon to deliver a natural attack. You can make all your Natural Attacks if you choose to do so, and there is no special restriction affecting you.
Why not make the primary attack with a two-hander and the off-hand with armor spikes while you're at it? And get two levels in barbarian to get the rage power lesser fiend totem for a gore attack while you rage. This is all legit RAW, but no sane GM would allow it (6 attacks at level 3 if you wanted).Actually it would not be legal to use a gore and a bite attack in the same attack rutine, as they both use the same limb (head), and you can only attack once with each limb.I'm sorry, but where is this rule? Imperial dragons have both bite and gore attacks and it doesn't say anything about them not being able to use both in the same round.
Also, I would just use unarmed striking to get around the "where are the claws" issue. Though I have heard some people debating if you can use TWF with unarmed strikes or not.
Yes i can see that these dragons have both bite and gore attacks, but i presume that it is an exception to the general rule in the bestiary that you can only attack once with each limb. I cant find the rule on the pathfinder SRD right now (and i dont have my books with me), but im sure the rule is in the bestiary. Any one help me with a reference?
guess i am wrong then, although i could have sworn that you cant attack twice with natural attacks on the same limb.
Where in the PFS rules does this not work?
Design Manager
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guess i am wrong then, although i could have sworn that you cant attack twice with natural attacks on the same limb.
You may be thinking of this FAQ:
"Does the Toothy alternate racial trait in the Advanced Player's Guide (page 19) stack with the Razortusk feat (page 168) granting you two bite attacks?
This is one of those areas where we tried to get at the same idea multiple ways. In this case, the answer is no, unless you somehow manage to get an extra mouth. Generally speaking, natural weapons can only be used once per round each. This also applies to the Animal Fury barbarian rage power (Core Rulebook, page 32).
—Jason Bulmahn, 08/13/10"
That would be a house rule mind you.Thanks...
(I'd apply the TWP penalty to all the natural attacks, so 2xLight Weapons at -2, then 3 naturals at -4)
Why wouldn't the TWF penalty apply to all the attacks in the full attack action?
-James
In hindsight, you're probably right. I typed without giving it enough thought.
Also, I thought he may have been thinking of reversing the errata. The rules used to say, you applied TWF penalties when combining manufactured weapons and natural attacks (even when you weren't otherwise duel-wielding).
Pshaw. This is nothing compared to a tengu druid with an animal companion or a tengu summoner with an eidolon. Those guys not only get more attacks, they also get more actions and can provide themselves with flanking and teamwork feat benefits too.
That's like saying the sky is blue. Most people already know that the summoner / druid / lion shaman are very powerful and one of the reasons is the action economy.
I'm particularly interested in this build because the rogue is considered a weak class and finding ways to fix this interests me. Though I also have an interest in what the ninja can do with this build combo with its ki pool. This build also gives you flexibility as you are a skill monkey and scout as well as being a cannon.
Even if you have to get the claws on your hands, why can't you just TWF with unarmed strikes and use the claws and bite?
The problem is that you don't actually have the Improved Unarmed Strike feat. The Claw racial trait only allows you to act as if you had the Unarmed Strike Feat to qualify for other feats.
You can use two Boot Blades, and get 5 attacks a level one.
If you are Rogue, take Multiattack first, then at second, use a Rogue Talent to get Two Weapon fighting.
There you go, 5 attacks, at level two, all at -2.
I hadn't heard of the Boot Blades. That sounds like an interesting option.
You can do this faster as a fighter.
Maybe, but you don't get sneak attack or rogue talents/ninja tricks and your number of skills sucks compared to being awesome.
things like this combo makes me think paizo should have gone more with the pre-Errata'd Core Rules functionality for iteratives+naturals (adding the 2WF penalty to all attacks), rather than the Bestiary (no penalties). or modified the core rules version to be slightly less harsh, but not as 'nice' as the bestiary version.
Sorry, Sneak Attack is more of a "big whoopitydoo" to me.
Flat reliable damage, like Weapon Training, and Weapon Specialization are what makes a damage dealer.
sure, but it seems to be pretty clearly above the power curve for 3rd level.
a rogue with this set-up (+ gore),+ a familiar for reliable flanking + aid another + other to-hit buffs is going to rock out on full attacks...
maybe if said character was a fighter/other martial that would be awesomeR, but the ease of getting 5-6+ attacks is kind of questionable to me.
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things like this combo makes me think paizo should have gone more with the pre-Errata'd Core Rules functionality for iteratives+naturals (adding the 2WF penalty to all attacks), rather than the Bestiary (no penalties).
It's not "no penalties" you just tally up your penalties separately. You've got negative five to all your natural attacks, and -4/-8 (assuming light weapon in off-hand) for your manufactured weapon attacks.
It does lead to some cheese when you can negate the penalties to a 5 hit attack routine to -2 for all attacks by level 3, but I think this is one of those issues where the designer and editor just assumed the kenku's claws would be on his hands by default, preventing this overlap.**Side-Note** If one looks at the Besitary, I think claws located on the feet are actually Talons, a different weapon altogether than claws. Most monsters I could verify follow this general rule, as the only animals who could conceivably be attacking with their rear limbs but don't have talons are using Rake. So perhaps there is some understood but not clearly delivered/located rule that Claws are generally located only on your primary limbs.
It is hard to say if it clawed talons or clawed hands. I just want to know what I can walk into my PFS group and have their jaws drop.