In 3.5 you had to do it by square, but in PF the rules don't say.
As for 1 minute per square he is making that up.
Under the "Table: Actions in Combat" chart in the combat chapter a skill is usually a standard action.
Skill checks that are not a standard action will say so.
Even disarming a trap is not a full minute.
In short your GM is making up rules.
Searching using Perception is a move action; as far as I'm aware it doesn't give how large of an area you search.
Action: Most Perception checks are reactive, made in response to observable stimulus. Intentionally searching for stimulus is a move action.
When you are intentionally searching it as a move action. I let players search 3 squares every 2 rounds. Move action, 5foot step, move action, 5foot step, move action.
- Gauss
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Are you the GM Rejic?
If so it is always strange how the story changes when the other side of the story is told.
I have always thought of checking for traps as a little more involved than just "looking at the ground". I would imagine there is a certain amount of testing and inspection going on. if you are purposely trying to find a trap it could be a time consuming process. If I was a rogue trying to find an not set off a trap I would probably take some extra time.
That being said it takes a full round to disable a simple device (as in full round action) and it take 1-4, or even 2-8 rounds depending on how difficult it is to get rid of. 8 rounds is about 45 seconds. So a minute might be excessive, but depending on how well made and hidden the trap is it could be in line as well.
I would say the time it takes to find the trap would be close to what it would take to disable it. Simple traps take 1 round to find, very complex could take over a minute to properly identify in a manner that you could determine how to disable.
Rejic13: You can search 3 squares every two rounds.
Round 1: Search (move action), 5'step, Search (move action).
Round 2: 5'step, Search (move action), no movement remaining (although you still have a standard or move action remaining).
- Gauss
Wait...what?
How do you get 2 moves and a 5 step in round 1?
I would probably do something like all adjacent squares as a move action. And that's for floors.
Walls or something specific like a bookcase or fireplace would be a separate move-action.
Anyway that's just personal preference since I never saw the rule about one square per round. That sounds like it could get a little tedious sometimes.
Move action to search the square, 5 foot to move to the next square, Move action to search. You're using your move actions to do something OTHER THAN MOVE, so you can take you 5 foot.Wait...what?
How do you get 2 moves and a 5 step in round 1?
Ok, right. Got it.
Sorry...I'll just shut up and obey from now on...
It seems like a misunderstanding. It happens. I don't think your GM will drop a mountain on your character's head. Well I can't promise that. You might want to buy pizza for the next session to make sure though. ;)
Where are people getting this "one square per check" thing? What is that based on?
3.5, most likely
Searching is a move action. There is no rule that I found that says you must be adjacent or in a square to search it for traps. Perception applies to anything you can perceive not a specific point of interest or 5' square. The DC for perception is +1/10 feet of distance. So a character standing 20' from the trap simply has a +2 DC to detect the trap when they roll perception. So that in mind a character with a 30 foot move can search every round and get a roll versus the DC of every trap within 30' with at most a +3 DC on the roll. When I do this I generally allow the character to roll in this manner and simply apply a +2 DC to all traps during this time to avoid the record keeping of where the characters is exactly when the perception is rolled since it is continuous. this avoids the problem of wanting to search but bogging down the game by tracking every round and every square and search roll.
Hmmmm, I guess I was using a 3.5 relic.
Normally I stick with RAW while in the Rules Forum. Looks like I wasnt on this occassion since the RAW is silent on how much you can search.
Still, I will keep using the one square per check. Otherwise, there is really no reason for Trap Spotter to exist.
Action: It takes a full-round action to search a 5-foot-by-5-foot area or a volume of goods 5 feet on a side.
There is no similar statement (of what can be checked) in PF so I guess I have defaulted to what I know and reduced the time to a move action (as per PF's Perception skill).
Also explains why some people still run it as a full-round action.
- Gauss
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Still, I will keep using the one square per check. Otherwise, there is really no reason for Trap Spotter to exist.
How do you figure? What are you worried will happen if a perception check applies to everything within line of sight (with appropriate distance modifiers)?
Jiggy:
I believe the The Trapfinding rules are vague.
A) Several abilities grant the ability to 'automatically detect traps within 10feet' (Dwarven Stonecunning, Rogue talent: Trap Spotter, Spell: Find Traps). Why when on page 416 it states that everyone can detect a trap before it is triggered with a perception check?
B) If people can detect traps at any distance why have the abilities that grant an ability to automatically notice traps inside 10'. Note: the spell Find Traps would seem to indicate that you can detect at any distance.
If A does not require an action and B states that distance is not an issue then there is ZERO reason for those abilities to state that they can automatically check for traps within 10feet even while not searching.
This is one of the areas of the rules that I have searched often and could find insufficient indication of how trapfinding works. So I have partially reverted to 3.5 without realizing it. I will ammend my future rules comments on trapfinding.
1) In order to find a trap (before it goes off) you must either search the square or you must have the an ability which allows you an automatic perception check within 10feet.
2) When you trigger a trap you are allowed a perception check to notice the trap before it goes off. Failure means you are flat footed with respect to the trap. Success means you are not flat-footed.
Yes, #2 is not exactly RAW since it modifies page 416. As for distance and action, the perception skill is vague there.
- Gauss
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The reason to have abilities like Trap Spotter is for it to be automatic instead of needing to announce the use of a move action. That can be huge.
For instance, just the other day I was playing a PFS scenario and there were some enemies down the hall. Being a melee cleric, I closed in and drew my sword.
Or I started to, but then fell into a 20ft pit with an ooze, effectively removing me from combat and sucking up resources as a struggled to stay alive long enough for the party to rescue my sorry behind.
If I'd been a rogue with Trap Spotter (or a dwarf with Stone Cunning, or whatever), there's a chance I'd have noticed the trap before getting to it and without needing to spend any actions.
So unless you're handing out freebie Perception checks whenever there's a trap around anyway, being able to search more than one square at a time is not hurting Trap Spotters at all.
I don't see the issue. Trap Spotter is a failsafe for when you either don't have time or don't have the in-character inclination to do a proper search.
Jiggy:
So what you are telling me is that you modify the RAW as well. Page 416 states you get a perception check to detect a trap before it goes off. (Unless I am misreading it, it is early in the morning for me.)
Include page 416 and suddenly abilities like Trap Spotter become pointless.
- Gauss
Chapter 13, Environment.
Creatures that succeed on a Perception check detect a trap before it is triggered. The DC of this check depends on the trap itself. Success generally indicates that the creature has detected the mechanism that activates the trap, such as a pressure plate, odd gears attached to a door handle, and the like. Beating this check by 5 or more also gives some indication of what the trap is designed to do.
- Gauss
Hmmm, yeah as I am waking up I think you are right. Bah, I really shouldnt do this when I am waking up.
So, no distance limitation, still a question on what action is required. The other abilities (Stoncunning, Trap Spotter, Find Traps spell) seem to indicate it requires an action but nothing else states this.
- Gauss
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So, no distance limitation,
Although there is the +1 DC per 10ft between you and what you're observing. So if someone wants to stand in the door of an amphitheater and search everything within line of sight for traps, they can - but a trap on the other side of the expanse (maybe 70ft away) has a +7 to its base DC (plus whatever else might impede, such as your light source not reaching that far or there being partial concealment).
still a question on what action is required. The other abilities (Stoncunning, Trap Spotter, Find Traps spell) seem to indicate it requires an action but nothing else states this.
- Gauss
I'm not sure whether you're wondering if manual searching requires an action, or if those abilities require an action.
If the former, the Perception skill states that searching requires a move action.
If the latter, how exactly are you going to follow the Trap Spotter talent's imperative to make the check in secret when it costs the PC an action? "Sorry, you don't get to move this round. Why? It's a secret!" ;)
Jiggy:
What I mean is that as soon as you have stimuli (ie: as soon as there is a trap) you get a perception check without spending an action. Nothing states you can only detect traps if you spend an action. Now, with that said there are three abilities which indicate that if you possess them you do not need to spend an action to find a trap (Stonecunning, Trap Spotter, and the spell Find Traps). To me that means you do need to spend an action. However, it is not clearly stated.
- Gauss
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Ah, I follow you now. You're right that it's not immediately clear that you have to actively search in order to find a trap.
However, based on the "Trap Spotter should do something" idea, I went asking (last time this came up for me), and found this to back me up:
The trap spotter talent lets a rogue make a perception check to notice ALL traps he comes wihtin range of. Normally, you have to tell the GM that you're looking for traps.
The text is unclear, but the intent is there: traps must be searched for unless you have an ability that says otherwise.
Agreed, the intent is there.
As for range, I guess that is a 3.5 relic I was using. Thatll make searching for secret doors interesting too. One action, cover an entire room (example: a 15x15 room would be covered by standing in the middle and spending a move action).
- Gauss
Hopefully there are no traps on the way to the middle :D
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Cheapy:
My group has a rogue with Trap Spotter and a rediculous perception (maxed out +feat +5 magic item). Traps dont have a prayer against him.
Secret Doors are the one thing he misses because he often does not search every single 5' square. I allow the wizard to help with his Knowledge Engineering (notices when there are dead spaces).
I just don't like the idea that you can search an entire room and find all the secret doors just by standing in the middle and spending a move action. Call me a traditionalist.
- Gauss
Traditionalist.
I've always felt my Pathfinder group was pretty libral by allowing an adjacent 10'-square as a move action when searching for traps or secret doors, feeling that occassional prodding and poking may be involved as opposed to purely visual ques. Next session I may have Perception checks be applicable against everything within line of sight (with the appropriate penalties for distance) as an experiment to see how much different it turns out to be. My guess is not much, but I tend of only have 1 or 2 places during an entire level where traps may reasonably be used. Secret or hidden doors are a bit more common. But only just a bit.
I asked JJ. Apparently it really is move action +line of sight (with appropriate modifiers). Ahhh well.
Not sure I agree with the change but he stated the change speeds up gameplay.
- Gauss
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I've always felt ... that occassional prodding and poking may be involved as opposed to purely visual ques.
Remember the line earlier that made Gauss think you might get a "freebie" Perception check for traps? The line stating "Creatures that succeed on a Perception check detect a trap before it is triggered"?
Guess what line of GM thinking probably prompted the inclusion of that line. ;)
I dont want to guess Jiggy: What line of GM thinking probably promted the inclusion of that line? :)
- Gauss
Ahhhhh, no wonder I wasn't guessing it.
- Gauss
"While you were searching you poked and prodded, setting off the trap anyway! Die, PCs, DIE!"
I (luckily) have not seen a DM say something like that since when I playing AD&D.
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I like a nice trap once in a while, but when it starts to seem like a DM's fetish, I get annoyed.
In fact, most Pathfinder APs are not very trap heavy, and those that are a bit heavier, still don't require a "Trap Specialist".
Every time I hear this "Holy crap, we need a trap guy" stuff, I tend to feel sad for that PC, because it is not true.
The need comes from a different time, and a different playstyle, that isn't really relevant any more.