Heraldic Expertise and Versatile Performance

[The Diplomat]

When a Court Bard uses Versatile Performance to substitute his Performance skill for Diplomacy, does he still get the Heraldic Expertise bonus on his skill check?

[MurphysParadox]

That's an interesting question. Also it is more expansive than you suggest. The real question is the order of operations.

When are item/feat/spell/etc bonuses applied to a swapped out skill? Before or after the swap? Does a +5 scary mask of intimidation help when you've used Versatile Performance (Comedy) to use perform instead of intimidate?

Likewise, does a feat that gives bonus to perform transfer that bonus to the intimidate check?

The words in the ability are all "use the perform's bonus instead of the other skill's bonus", which is vague because bonus in this case means training (each rank imparts +1 bonus to the skill), class training (though Versatile Performance takes time explicitly indicate that part), and maybe other things like feats and items?

[Rhatahema]

I would say no. When versatile performance states that "the bard uses his total Perform skill bonus...in place of its associated skill's bonus", I take total as meaning total; After applying bonuses from magic items, feats, class bonuses, etc. If it were otherwise, I'd have expected them to call out skill ranks rather than the skill bonus.

MurphysParadox makes a good point about the order of operations though. With Heraldic Crest, it's easy to say that, even though you're using your bonus in perform in place of your bonus in diplomacy, you can still reroll your diplomacy checks. But, hypothetically, what if, on the reroll, that ability gave you a bonus on the diplomacy check?

I could see a ruling going either way.

[MurphysParadox]

Well, the check is definitely a diplomacy check, you're just using a different number than the one you'd get from your diplomacy skill, so anything that acts upon diplomacy checks should work with versatile performance, but not something that only works for performance checks.

[The Diplomat]

This is where it gets complicated. What if I had Skill Focus (Performance [Oratory]) and Skill Focus (Diplomacy). Do both apply or only one, and, if only one, which one?
The rule says "total skill bonus, including class skill bonus". So this definitely includes the +3 for Perform being a class skill and the words "total skill bonus" seems to imply that other bonuses apply too, not just ranks. I guess the key must be whether the bonus applies to the "check" or the "skill"?
But, like you said, do other modifiers from things like equipment and class skills apply before or after the skill swap? On a Versatile Performance (Percussion) check would you apply the bonus for a Scary Mask of Intimidation (+5) or a masterwork snare drum (+2)?

[Cheapy]

People have been wondering this since the start. You can try your luck at the Ask James Jacobs thread, as I believe he was the original designer of the bard. Or at least heavily involved with it!

[MurphysParadox]

So lets say you are a level 10 bard with a drum. You have skill focus (performance), a MW drum, and an 18 attribute. You have no ranks in intimidate, a Scary Mask (+5), and an 18 attribute. In both cases your buddy the cleric provides Guidance (+1 on check)

Your perform check would be 10 ranks +3 class +6 skill focus +2 drum +4 attribute +1 spell = 26 + roll.

Your intimidate would be 5 mask +4 attribute +1 spell = 10 + roll.

Now when you use versatile performance to swap perform in for intimidate, we know you have at least 10 ranks +3 class +4 attribute +1 spell = 18 + roll. What we don't know is if skill focus (performance) or the MW drum count for the check nor do we know if the Scary Mask would help.

Are we making a Performance check and just calling it an Intimidate, or are we making an Intimidate check and just using the ranks and class bonus from performance?

[Aelryinth]

You have to go with the literal power.

You make a Perform check, not an Intimidate check. Modifiers to an Intimidate check have no effect. It's a pure Perform check.

So, Sf(Diplomacy) modifies DIplomacy skill...will have no effect on the check. SF(Performance/oratory) will modify the Perform check you are subbing in for Diplomacy.

Don't read into it more then is intended. It's a straight Perform check, not a Perform check + Other Skill Modifiers.

==Aelryinth

[MurphysParadox]

So what about the Scary Mask or Masterwork Instrument? Item bonuses and such. What about class features that can modify performance checks (the original question was regarding Heraldic Expertise)?

[VRMH]

From the Ask James Jacobs thread:

James Jacobs wrote:

If you get a magic item to increase Perform, you increase your versatile performance skills. If you get an item to increase a skill directly, that does NOT increase your perform skill. In fact, only if that increase bonus bumps the actual skill modifier up above your perform modifier would it matter. A circlet of persuasion is an EXCELLENT item for a bard, but things like boots of elvenkind are increasingly not all that great (assuming you have a versatile performance that can be used for Acrobatics in that case).

Same goes for feats and spell effects.

You can't double up on versatile performance, in other words.

[Aelryinth]

MurphysParadox wrote:

So what about the Scary Mask or Masterwork Instrument? Item bonuses and such. What about class features that can modify performance checks (the original question was regarding Heraldic Expertise)?

Does the Scary mask or Masterwork instrument modify the Intimidate Skill or the Performance skill? You are going to use one or the other...it doesn't modify both skills.

Ditto the class features...which skill do they modify?

You are using a skill check, and modifiers apply to the skill check. The fact that skill is being used in place of another skill is MOOT...absolutely ignore it. Using Oratory in place of Diplomacy is a Perform check (Oratory). Things that mod Diplomacy mean NOTHING. You'll use whatever is higher mod.

==Aelryinth

[The Diplomat]

Okay, cool. So this means that by boosting Perform (Oratory) via feats and equipment I'm effectivly boosting three skills - Perform, Diplomacy and Sense Motive (since Versatile Performance isn't a Bardic Performance). The Court Bard's class ability Heraldic Expertise has no effect when Versatile Performance is activated.

[The Diplomat]

Here's a follow up question on versatile performance:

The Street Performer is able to substitute a Bluff check for a Diplomacy check (with a RP penalty) using his Gladhanding ability. Does this mean he could use, say, Performance (Act) with Gladhanding and Versatile Performance to substitute for Diplomacy?

[Aelryinth]

Using a Perform Check to sub for the bluff check which is subbing for the diplomacy check?

RAW, it works.

=+Aelryinth